SPECULATION Clarification around snoke

i’m AFRAID You know nothing of snokes origins or what role he plays yet. how can you confirm the sith where destroyed if snoke exists, considering his age?

what’s cannon is the movies, then everything else, they take president. not what george lucas says in a interview I’m afraid. though its interesting to get georges perspective.

when have the sith been in power ?

when palpatine and his apprentice darth maug, and doku ruled or when the the emperor and vader ruled?

when palpatine and his apprentice darth maug, and doku ruled the jedi opposed them, when the emperor and vader ruled. yoda, obi wan, lea and luke opposed them.

they exist in equal opposition, there have always been both? and this is all founded by anikin and his bloodline. INTERPRETATION, the prophesy is multi faceted. bringing balance can mean in many ways!

The balance is in EQUAL OPPOSITION, i made the point that there are parallels in both the literal example as well as the figurative one made in my above points

also luke is a sith master. haha

 

1. I don't proclaim to know about Snoke's origins. I'm just suggesting a theory.
2. Snoke isn't a Sith (anymore) and secondly it was the ruling Sith (Sidious & Vader) who were causing the imbalance and who's deaths restored balance. An inactive Sith in the far reaches of space doesn't have an impact on the balance.

I agree. But what is more likely - the truth being in line with Lucas' intention or the truth being the complete opposite of what Lucas said?!

The Sith's power increased over the course of the films until they took over in ROTS - at which point "Evil is everywhere". The Force was steadily going out of balance the more influence the Sith got. Then when they take over up until ROTJ, they have spready their evil across the galaxy.

No it doesn't! The Sith are the cancer - they spread the Dark Side everywhere. Without them, good and evil both exist and are equal but the evil side isn't boosted by the Sith and thus the two sides are balanced. We know the Force is brought into balance in ROTJ. All Sith are dead and the Jedi have returned. That blows this equal number nonsense out of the water.

Literally nothing indicates this to be the case.

 

i can't even take this seriously, you acknowledge you know nothing about snoke. as do we all.

then how are you qualifying these statements.

and

1. you are presenting speculation as fact, and contradicting your self as you do.
2. you say snoke isn’t a sith any more (what ever that means)
3. then you say

This would seem to be implying that snoke is both characters?

please provide a reference for this clip? when was it dated? lucas has had nothing to do with the films since at least October 30, 2012,

good one.
in the movie the light side and the dark are represented as jedi and sith respectively. as one gains more power the is a imbalance. there can be a balance when there are no jedi and sith, or when there power is evenly balanced.

the sith where numbering between 1-3 in the prequels. the jedi many. as anikin shifted to the dark side he brought balance to the force, just not in the way we suspected it to happen.

the force like it or not has two sides and only when each side is EQUALY REPRESENTED is there true balance.

you can’t even quote me right EQUAL OPPOSITION.


what you are saying is when the sith get more power there is an imbalance yes? but because you like the jedi (as do i) you arnn’t recognising this works both ways.

 

I thought he would have chosen Korriban, it's the sith birthplace like Tython for the jedi.

 

I do indeed. I'm sure he must've been pretty stoked to find Yoda's hut.

 

who's the he?

 

In my opin

 

Yes our little green friendstooked him good.

Snoke off course.

 

I've been wondering something. I wonder how Ren got his Grandad's helmet. Did Luke give it to him or did he take it from Luke after Luke disappeared. Remember during the early days of TFA there was the tidbit about Ren being a "Sith Artifacts Collector" well I wonder if Snoke and Ren went out looking for Relics..both Jedi and Sith relics. Since Kylo came from the Lightside, Jedi Artifacts would be something Snoke and Ren would want. For example..when Kylo sees Anakin's lightsaber he said that was his, I bet he and Snoke had been looking for that LightSaber for years.

 

I'm using the term "Sith" there to just explain how a dark side user in the far reaches of space that is essentially dormant, doesn't impact upon the balance of the Force. But I don't think Snoke is a Sith (anymore, if he ever was). Why? Because of the introduction of the KOR, it would be confusing to then have the Sith as well. And Maz talks about the Sith being a past threat. Snoke makes no mention of Sith to Kylo. I think it is safe to assume the Sith Order is no more.

Not since 2012 but that to me is irrelevant. This is the intention as shown clearly in the films we are discussing!

"The first film starts with the last age of the Republic; which is it's getting tired, old, it's getting corrupt. There's the rise of the Sith, who are now becoming a force, and in the backdrop of this you have Anakin Skywalker: a young boy who's destined to be a very significant player in bringing balance back to the Force and the Republic.

In the second film, we get into more of that turmoil. It's the beginning of the Clone Wars, it's the beginning of the end of democracy in the Republic, sorta the beginning of the end of the Republic, and it's Anakin Skyalker beginning to deal with some of his more intense emotions of anger, hatred, sense of loss, possessiveness, jealousy, and the other things he's coping with.

Then we will get to the 3rd film, where he is seduced to the dark side, which brings up to films four, five, and six, where Anakin's offspring redeem him & allow him to fulfill the prophecy where he brings balance to the Force by doing away with the Sith and getting rid of evil in the universe."

--George Lucas, The Star Wars Trilogy VHS Boxset 2000.

The sad thing is Padme says there is still good in him and Luke says in ROTJ there is good in you. Its recurring. There is good in him. And that will bring balance to the force. He needs to get rid of the Sith and bring balance to the Force."

--George Lucas, ROTS DVD Commentary.

"It really has to do with learning," Lucas says, "Children teach you compassion. They teach you to love unconditionally. Anakin can't be redeemed for all the pain and suffering he's caused. He doesn't right the wrongs, but he stops the horror. The end of the Saga is simply Anakin saying, I care about this person, regardless of what it means to me. I will throw away everything that I have, everything that I've grown to love- primarily the Emperor- and throw away my life, to save this person. And I'm doing it because he has faith in me; he loves me despite all the horrible things I've done. I broke his mother's heart, but he still cares about me, and I can't let that die. Anakin is very different in the end. The thing of it is: The prophecy was right. Anakin was the chosen one, and he does bring balance to the Force. He takes the one ounce of good still left in him and destroys the Emperor out of compassion for his son."

--George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith; page 221

"I think it is obvious that [Qui-Gon] was wrong in Episode I and made a dangerous decision, but ultimately this decision may be correct. The “phantom menace” refers to the force of the dark side of the universe. Anakin will be taken over by dark forces which in turn destroy the balance of the Galaxy, but the individual who kills the Emperor is Darth Vader—also Anakin. The tale meanders and both the prediction and Qui-Gon are correct—Anakin is the chosen one, and he did bring peace at last with his own sacrifice. Luke couldn't kill the Emperor himself, but he could make Anakin reflect on his life and kill the Emperor."

--George Lucas, Cut Magazine interview, 1999


That right there shows us what Lucas' intention was and I think it is clearly shown to be the case in the films.
Dark and light co-exist and always will but the Sith spread evil across the galaxy, shifting the balance in favour of the dark side.
This then impacts upon life which in turn creates the Force which in turn then speaks it's will to the Jedi to restore balance.

You're just wrong.
What you're saying is that for harmony there needs to be evil tyrants in the world.
It's crazy. Good and evil exists together regardless. People will do good and bad things.
But the Sith have the power to literally spread the Dark Side/evil across the galaxy - infecting everything like a cancer.
This is what shifts that balance.
The Jedi don't put the Force out of balance. They might not have been very good at dealing with the Sith threat after becoming complacent and arrogant over a millennia, but they weren't spreading evil. They weren't trying to become more powerful by oppressing others. They were doing what they were meant to do - trying to destroy the Sith. And that is why Lor San Tekka says there can be no balance without the Jedi. Because when there are no Jedi, the Sith or an order like it, rise to power off the back of the Dark Side. And only the Jedi and their 'light' has the capability of removing this cancer from the universe.

Look at it this way, the Jedi said the Force was out of balance in ROTS. And they were saying it was out of balance in a bad way. Well, there were hundreds of Jedi then and just 2 Sith - so going by your logic the Jedi should have been rejoicing in the light!

What's more, it just shows how dangerous the Sith are, just 2 Sith are capable of spreading fear and evil across the galaxy ("Evil is everywhere").

And I am not saying this because I "like the Jedi"! lol.
I don't know them personally. I'm not that cut up about them getting wiped out.
I'm just calling it as it is - the Jedi exist to maintain the balance of the Force.

 

The jedi maintain balance, with out them there can be no balance ok. and you think they are GOOD

The sith spread BAD and are evil

Were just debating perspectives now
From a sith point of view, they are trying to bring there own kind of order to the universe by controlling it. I’m not saying i agree, just that if you were born a sith you would perceive the jedi to be evil to.

there were millions of empire troops that fought against the jedi because they perceived them to be bad.

JEDI CODE
you can also make a valid argument that the jedi code is a very oppressive code that was at the hart of its own destruction. suppressing emotions, rejecting natural instincts to love.

SITH CODE
the sith are open minded to all aspects of the human emotional spectrum.


Quick look at jedi
luke defeats vader using his anger emotion. (jedi sin)
anikins decent, is derive from his love for his wife and unborn twins. (jedi sin)
when qwaygone gin want to kill palpatine in cold blood (anger jedi sin)

Result
the old jedi practises were very oppressive and destructive
The old system of the jedi was brought down by anikin.
by the end only luke and lea, vader and the emperor exist, ultimately resulting in luke being the surviving jedi.

But not trained in a traditional jedi way. none of the bantha poodoo about suppressing all human emotion, it was back to the traditional sense.

this shows the impact of anikin bringing balance to the force but in a none traditional way also.

Anikin, through the destruction of the jedi order and strengthening of the sith and

luke in the destruction of the sith.

now anikins bloodline continue the battle, being the key players on both light and dark side of the force perpetuating the eternal EQUAL OPPOSITIONAL STRUGGLE.


Question

1. what happens if the sith no longer exist nor any dark side user. is the force in balance
2. what is the actual point were debating, how to perceive the prophesy wasn’t it. which is anikin will bring balance to the force

if that was to be taken so literal why is there not balance then? was the prophesy wrong? because there is no balance. did it only refer to the balance for a finite time frame. that does’t sound right does it?

3. how exactly did anikin bring balance to the force?

my simple point is this
as in all dualistic parts of nature, we have two opposites that exist in EQUAL OPOSITION
negative and positive charges, day and night and similarly, the light and dark side of the force.
anikins progeny have in one way or other balanced the different aspects of the force, which is a ongoing eternal struggle.

 

Brainwashed.
The Sith are evil. It's pointless to suggest otherwise. They do evil things to further their own power and get what they want. They desire more power. They desire the power of the Dark Side. That is evil.

No, you can't really. The Jedi are selfless. They train themselves to let go of their passions and desires. Their attachments. That doesn't mean they don't love. Or aren't compassionate. Quite the opposite. It means they love everyone above themselves. They make huge sacrifices to serve the Force.

That's Palpatine talk for "if you're a Sith you can get what you desire".

And almost succumbs to evil, which would've resulted in the end of the Jedi and evil triumphing.

It's driven by his fear of loss. His attachments. His desires and fears. In the end it is his own quest for power that kills Padme.
But there is a point to be made that the Jedi did fail to see the strain Anakin was under. They were outdated. But not selfish. Not evil. And they didn't cause imbalance.

I assume you are referring to Mace.
That's a grey area. Palpatine's destruction would've seen the end of the Sith and the galaxy would've been left in peace. Mace knew Palpatine was too powerful to be kept alive. He witnessed this power first hand. But whether killing in cold blood is ever a good idea, I don't know.

No they weren't. A Jedi could leave the order whenever they desired.
Anakin is an example of what happens when someone becomes attached. What the Jedi could've been better at is understanding the problems of a modern Jedi like Anakin and not being so rigid like the Jedi of old. I'm not saying, let him do as he wishes. But rather, be more on his level when dishing out advice. Yoda's scene with him in ROTS was very cold.

You mean the scene where Luke let's go of his attachments, his desire for power, his fear of losing his friends and then drops his saber - proclaiming he is a Jedi and won't turn to the Dark Side? The scene where Vader then sacrfices his own life, forgets his passions, his anger and hatred and saves his son out of compassion?

These are actions derived from the very heart of the Jedi Order. It's nothing new.

You're back into the numbers game. Equal Jedi and Sith maintaining good and evil in the universe. This just isn't the case. Good and evil exist outside of the Jedi and Sith. There is a good side and a bad side. But an evil order such as the Sith disrupt that balance by spreading evil/the Dark Side everywhere. The Jedi then restore the balance by destroying such an order and allowing the natural harmony of good and evil to exist equally - without outside intervention. The Jedi don't add light or darkness. They simply maintain the natural harmony.

If there isn't a Dark Side user spreading evil then yes the Force is in balance.

It originally came from me saying Snoke's vulnerability could perhaps stem from the Force being in balance and the Dark Side being diminished. But yes, that Anakin brought balance to the Force in ROTJ.

There was balance. He restored balance. But that doesn't mean it couldn't go out of balance again. It was just a prophesy about that moment in time. It came true. But now evil has risen again and the Force has gone out of balance. The problem being that Luke's Jedi Order was destroyed by Kylo, allowing this evil to gain power.

By destroying the Sith who were ruling the galaxy and spreading fear and oppression. Once they were destroyed, the influence of the Dark Side diminished and there was no longer a force of evil that boosted the evil in the universe above the light.

Yes, there is equal good and evil. On that we agree.
But I am saying that the Sith cause the imbalance because they increase the evil. They tip the scales to darkness.
The Jedi restore the balance of good and evil by destroying the Sith.

 

so you dispute the only reason anikin eventually turned was.

1. to stop the cold blooded killing of a unarmed, accused but not tried senator ?
2. because he fell in love and romance was forbidden?

This may be a oversimplification of the events, but it eventually comes down to these two points.

i except that too, my point was that he fought with passion, controlled aggression. it won him the fight. and if he would of fought without it, he would have lost, like the first time they fought.

to fight with passion is natural, its called controled aggression.

in the O.T the concepts of jedi training were not defined, when luke is sent in to the cave in the "only what you take with you scene" its because it was about confronting and dealing with your fears,
the prequels took the word "training" and in my opinion misrepresented what the true spirit of what yoda was trying to convey.
when they later made these elaborate rules it contradict what we have seen in all the major jedi fights, because they are simply incorrect. a jedi must fight with passion but controlling his aggression. and don't quote me the jedi code as established in a prequel that barley passes as one good film collectively.

No i mean the scene where vader finds out about his sister, and out of pure anger luke cuts his arm off. luke never wanted power, and it was specifically to protect his attachments to his sister that he defeated vader.

“i am a jedi, like my father before me”

QUESTION

would it have been another grey area if luke would have gone all the way and killed vader, or would it have meant he would have turned to the dark side.
if your answer is turned, does that mean mace windo would also have turned by committing the act because they seem awfully similar situations to me?

Come on, the prophesy says very clearly “he will bring balance to the force”
not, p.s for a short time till theres more imbalance.
Thats the standard, they fight one side gets the upper hand then the other does.

Anikin was the exception to the standard, because its less literal then you are treating it, its expansive, including his bloodline, the SKYWALKER dynasty, that we have followed now for over 90 years.
anikin at the time of death was the last surviving fully trained jedi and sith master.

anikin didn’t destroy the sith, he became one. and ruled with them for over thirty years,
when he eventually killed the emperor, the galaxy was throw into disarray. as we have seen in TFA.

anikin as you also fail to mention was single handedly ( pun intentional ) responsible for the destruction of the jedi.
he didn’t, as you say, bring balance to the force, because you say the jedi are key to the force being in balance, well they stopped existing, he killed them all, with the exception of yoda? (death by natural causes) lol

Lor San Tekka says ” there can be no balance without the Jedi”

1. the jedi are key to the force being in blance.
2. the jedi are all dead.

As a direct result of anikin/vader there are no jedi, how if there has to be jedi to have balance is there balance when there all dead.
assuming the jedi need to be trained from an early age, to be taught many things, including accumulated knowledge transmitted from through out the ages, that all dyed with yoda. that was the end of the jedi in all but name.

Luke never completed his training if your going to argue that point. he left against Yodas advise.

 

He didn't stop Mace to keep the rule of law but because he wanted the Dark Side knowledge to save the one he loved.
It was a selfish desire. And in the end it backfires - as every deal with the devil does.

That's not what is happening there.
Luke refused to fight Vader properly until that point because he is rejecting the Dark Side.
Luke goes there to redeem his father, not fight him. And he doesn't have much trouble in that fight. At this point, before he gets angry, Luke isn't in danger of being killed by Vader. Then, when Vader makes him angry, Luke loses it and starts using the Dark Side. Then, as he looks upon his defeated his father he realises he is becoming Vader. And he stops. Throws down his saber and proclaims himself a Jedi. To get it straight, there is nothing Jedi-like in Luke's actions when he defeats his father. The Jedi bit comes when he lets go of his anger and drops his saber.

See above.

Luke would've turned because he was using the Dark Side! He would've acted out of anger and hatred! And he was in danger of being consumed by it.
"Your hate has made you powerful...now fulfill your destiny and take your fathers place at my side!".
Mace was acting out of duty. It might not have been strictly kosher to kill Palpatine in cold blood but it wouldn't have turned Mace to the Dark Side.

I see nothing to suggest that prophesy meant for all of time. In fact, balance was restored in ROTJ (as the maker of the saga confirmed) and with TFA we see it is likely out of balance again going by LST's words.

I don't think that's the case.
It might be made the case that the Skywalker bloodline is destined to continually be chosen by the Force to bring balance.
However, they will do this by destroying the Sith/Dark Siders - as this is what brings balance.

And as Lucas says, it looks like the prophesy was wrong but then it turned out right - Anakin destroyed the Sith and brought balance.
We don't know much about the state of the galaxy after the events of ROTJ. Things weren't perfect.
But balance doesn't mean everlasting peace. It just means that the forces of evil/Dark Side aren't up to no good.
But as we see they have now returned and at some point, probably when Kylo turned, the balance started to shift again.

I don't follow.
When Anakin brought balance he did so by destroying the Sith. If Anakin did this and there were 0 Jedi around, he still would've brought balance.
But when he did destroy Sidious (and himself), Luke was a Jedi...

Luke is a Jedi in ROTJ. Yoda proclaims he will be once he faces Vader again. Luke did face Vader. He redeemed him. Ergo, Luke is a Jedi.
He is even referred to as THE LAST JEDI in TFA, so not sure where you're going with that.
And again, Jedi don't maintain balance by just existing. They maintain balance by destroying those that wield the Dark Side.
And as LST points to, because of Luke's disappearance the Dark Side has risen again in the form of the FO.
LST knows that Luke needs to return and resurrect the Jedi Order so that this evil can be defeated and balance restored (again).

 

this is not my reply just a quick observation.

funny from a guy called master shaitan. lol

 

Speak of the devil, and he shall appear.

 

This clip would strongly disagree. it was out of duty just like mace. he had his own motivations to,but doesn't every one. the essential point though is he wanted to do his duty as a jedi.

yes the point is the restrictions were wrong in the first place. the act of not killing him was the pivotal light/darkside point. no the prohibited use of passion and controlled aggression.

WEAK

its still as always in equal opposition, ever fluctuating. HARMONIOUS

if theres no jedi or sith yes the force is in balance that was my point all along. WHEN THERES BALANCE theres balance. EQUAL OPPOSITION.
when both side is equally strong or equal weak.
and ultimately it's luke who brought balance, not vader.
luke defeated vader and converted vader back to the light, yes vader threw the emperor but you must acknowledge your point, when taken so literal, becomes thinner and thinner.

the jedi no longer exist, a jedi became a jedi over a life time of training by your prequel standards. luke in a week come on?
you conveniently forget your own argument when it suits.
luke is a powerful force user, but jedi master in the traditional sense, of full jedi training. i think not.
the real jedi died with yoda and so did all there knowledge.

i do except luke, through his inherited bloodline and the fact that his father was both a jedi master and sith master, is exceptionally strong with the force. and in name has now taken on the mantle of jedi. but all the old lore and tradition is gong in every true sense. so vader brought balance by his bloodline
LUKE. who in killing his father killed the last fully trained jedi master and sith lord.
back to the prophesy and my original point. not anikin literally.

 

It's really hard to follow what you're saying here.
Are you saying it was ok for Luke to use the Dark Side to defeat Vader?

Well, that's not how it is and not what happened.
Anakin brought balance when he destroyed Sidious (and himself).
His love for Luke is what reignited the light inside him.

You keep on about this equal opposition nonsense when nothing in the films express this.
The Force is out of balance (in a bad way) when there are many Jedi and few Sith. Why would that be bad for the Jedi? Why would they want balance if it meant less of them and more Sith?!?!
What exactly are you suggesting? That there needs to be, if they exist, say 2 Jedi and 2 Sith. Do they also need to have identical Force power?
And now you're saying Luke brought balance - but you do realise the Sith were dead then? So we have 1 Jedi and 0 Sith. Yet balance is restored....
You're point is absurd.
You're ignoring the intention of Lucas, the creator of this entire thing. He said Anakin brings balance by destroying the Sith. He has said time and time again that it is the Sith that cause imbalance. This is shown in the movies.

Ok, I'm done with this. You clearly have no comprehension of what is going on in these movies.
You're saying that Luke is not a Jedi?
Luke started training to be a Jedi in ANH. He furthered his training in TESB, set years after ANH.
Several months later, he returns to Yoda to complete his Jedi training - but Yoda says:
"No more training do you require"
+
"Vader, you must confront Vader. Then, only then a Jedi will you be".

Luke confronts Vader. He redeems him.
Yet you said that Luke isn't a Jedi.

Then we get to TFA. The search for THE LAST JEDI. Luke. Consistantly referred to as THE LAST JEDI.
Yet you say Luke isn't a Jedi.

He clearly is.

 

no aim saying the old jedi code was always wrong. simple. mace used controlled aggression luke used controlled aggression.
part of anikin’s descent, is caused by out dated and unnecessary restriction.
it never was the dark side of the force just tapping in to passion and controlled aggression or love.

luke appealing to his father was what awoke vader. his love yes but though luke. he would not have chosen to just turn.
i think were arguing a mute point on most of these now though.

its not about actual numbers? just balance. why can’t you grasp the dualistic nature of the force.
when luke restored balance, there was still one. SNOKE

you perceive balance in the force to mean outward order. but that is how people chose to apply there power. true force balance only comes from balance when each side has EQUAL POWER. and that means a constantly fluctuating state. and as an extension of that anikin brough balance though his bloodline who through the ages battle on either side. none literal.

 

Mace isn't using the Dark Side.
Luke IS using the Dark Side when he takes down Vader.
That is the difference.

The Dark Side is and always has been giving in to your passions.
Anger, hate, aggression - the Dark Side of the Force are they, easily they flow....

AS I HAVE SAID - a dark sider exisiting in the universe doesn't cause imbalance.
A Dark Sider actively spreading evil across the galaxy causes imbalance.
Heck, if Sidious didn't die and retired to a peaceful life on Naboo he wouldn't cause imbalance by just existing.
But if he started doing evil blast again, then he would impact on the balance.

Do you completely reject what Lucas' has said about the story he wrote?

Eh? I can't make head nor tail of that paragraph.
Sith cause imbalance. Jedi kill Sith. Balance restored. Sith reemerge. Jedi are killed. Unbalance. Jedi return. Destroy Sith. Balance restored. And so on.

Answer my questions:
Are you saying that there needs to be equal Jedi and Sith for there to be balance? If so, do they need to be equal in Force power (would there be balance if the Jedi could barely lift a stone but the Sith could lift a star destroyer? And if this is the case why was the imbalance a problem for the Jedi in the PT era - if more Jedi than Sith = imbalance then would it not be shifted towards the light? Why would the Jedi be worried about that? Do you disregard the comments of Lucas who says that the Sith caused imbalance?