SPECULATION Clarification around snoke

remember this ???

you keep shifting points my friend. when it suits you.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 13, 2016, Original Post Date: Jan 13, 2016 ---

no. the dark side is about giving in to you negative emotions, massive difference.
using controlled aggression is quite fine.

think about it how does it actually effect the force?
by that standard a none force user can do equal damage right?
you are confusing some one acting badly and manipulating the empire with the force,

lets call the force ENERGY it would need a 50 50 split to be in balance. each end of the spectrum gains the upper hand occasional and this fluctuates.
as long as collectively the opposing ends of the force are represented in energy than it matters not if one person is on one side and ten on the other,
hence lots of jedi, 2-3 sith, but sith still did well against them. these we’re very powerful.

if you think force power i about lifting blast, you have got it massively wrong.

by that argument neither does a jedi
what you are saying is there actions are the actual thing your judging not there force strength.
that is a separate issue.

 

What point have I shifted exactly?

Luke wasn't using "controlled aggression". He was using the Dark Side. Anger. Hatred.
One more time "YOUR HATE HAS MADE YOU POWERFUL".
The whole point of the scene is Luke realising he is becoming his father!! If you miss this then it explains how you can be so misguided on everything else.

I think a non-Force user could impact on the balance of the Force. But it is less likely because a Force user is so much more powerful and influencial.
And there is something to be said in active use of the Dark Side adding to the imbalance as well.

You seem to not understand what the Force is.
"The Force is an energy field created by all living things..."
"Life creates it, makes it grow..."

Now if life is being oppressed by the cancer of the Sith then seeks a return to the natural harmony of things - a balance. The Sith tip the scales to darkness.
So this collective consciousness of the galaxy that is the Force, speaks its will. The Jedi listen to it and it helps them remove the cancer.
The Sith ignore the will of the Force. They simply use the Force for their own means.

Right, so you're saying it's not numbers but rather the total Force power for each side?!
How is that measured exactly? Is it all their powers combined? Or the levels of good and evil being the same? I don't get it. Nothing like this is indicated in the films or by the creators.
Instead we are shown a status quo in the galaxy disrupted by the evil Sith.
Once the Sith are removed, balance is restored. It's not rocket science.

I was clearly being facetious. My point was how do you compare levels of power or good and evil in the Jedi vs Sith?

Yes. That is exactly what I am saying.
If there is a being in the Star Wars galaxy with off the scale midichlorians but he is sitting around idle, then he won't impact anything.
If there is a Sith Lord, who say has been badly wounded and has thus retired from evil, then he won't impact the balance.

The balance of the Force is only impacted by those who are actively spreading evil in the galaxy.
Look at it this way - the balance of the Force was only slightly shifting before the events of TPM, AOTC and ROTS - by the latter is was out of balance by a lot.
If the power of a Force user determined that the Force would be out of balance then it wouldn't have changed during those movies.
The balance only really started to shift in AOTC when Sidious is granted emergency powers and the clone wars begin.

Why am I persisting with this? Just read Lucas' quotes again. Slowly.

 

I really would like to have one of this SW Movies directed by Quentin Tarantino, perhaps then all the questions about good/bath, light/dark, Jedi/Sith might disappear.

Nothing in the universe is Black or White, right or wrong everytime, everything exists in shades of grey, the same person sometimes does good things and other times performs bad deeds.

 

the the emperor is now a trust worthy person is he? wasn't it you saying he can't be trusted?
the whole point of the scene is what you stated earlier, for luke to finish his training isn't it?
luke went there to confront his father, to try to turn him back.

this is very speculative?
you say snoke has lay dormant doing nothing other than gathering knowledge, yet he is a sith?
if snoke is as powerful as yoda and a dark side user would you say the living breathing force might become aware of this regardless of this activity?

well you take the perspective that it manifests its self in the attainment of power and needing to rule. right
like sidious. but thats not really a reflection of his power, in force terms or everyone who attained power by that standard would be evil.
what if plagues has been sat in a cave building power but not using it.
is he any less powerful, as a dark side user. no
would that constitute an imbalance? if the force is aware of a growing threat well yes. regardless of his outward activity

well don’t be a prick. i have enjoyed this debate with you.

but this is the same if you take the force out of the equation.?
again you are talking about how people use power.

also the above point. you have to dismiss your earlier points about it being living breathing, aware. it would sense the shift or of a growing power wouldn’t it?

 

Luke looking at Vader's hand and then to his, indicates that he sees that he is becoming his father - after using his hatred to defeat him.
That's Star Wars 101.

Might have once been a Sith, dunno. But yes, he hasn't done anything in terms of spreading evil until after the events of ROTJ.

The Force isn't a separate entity. It is not a god. It is an energy field created by all living things.
It isn't a sentient power. It's will is a reaction to the events that are transpiring in the galaxy.

I don't really understand what you're saying here, sorry.

See your post that elicited my response.

Yes, evil people in powerful positions spread evil.
Take Iraq for instance. The ordinary people can do good and evil. Like any society they do good things and bad things. There are good people and bad people. Some good people do bad things. Some bad people do good things.
Then stick Saddam Hussein into the equation. A powerful dictator. He shits over everything. Murders by the thousands. Spreads fear everywhere. Oppresses.

That is the Sith.
Before they start doing evil (which is what Sith do), there is a balance of good and evil in the galaxy. So the life that creates the Force experiences a balance of these two sides. Good people, bad people etc. Good things happen. Bad things happen.
The along come the Sith and they spread their darkness everywhere.
Suddenly, there is galactic wide oppression. The Dark Side takes over.

The Force is the collective consciousness of the galaxy. It's the energy that surrounds and binds everyone and everything.
So it is aware in the sense that when life across the galaxy is impact heavily by the Dark Side, it can feel that darkness. And like a cancer, it wants it gone.
So yes, it senses the shift in a growing power when the power is actively causing harm in the galaxy.
Snoke being on planet X in the far reaches of space, reading books about the Dark Side, isn't going to impact upon the balance.

 

do you think any of these statements contradict each other?
what about

i think were at the end of this discussion mate.
it’s been fun though.

thats star wars one on one. ZING

 

@FallenAngel What contradiction?

 

zing!

 

@FallenAngel

There is something I overlooked that confirms my thoughts on the balance of the Force:

LOR SAN TEKKA
This will begin to make things right.

I've traveled too far, and seen too much, to ignore the despair in the galaxy. Without the Jedi, there can be no balance in the Force.

Lor San Tekke is confirming here that the despair in the galaxy is what causes imbalance.
As I was saying, the Force itself is created by life. If the life in the galaxy is in despair then this is the imbalance.
Without the Jedi the Dark Side continues to rise and despair spreads.
The Jedi are needed not to balance the power but to destroy those that wield the Dark Side for it is these people that spread their evil and cause the despair in the galaxy.

 

@master_shaitan

I think LOR SAN TEKKA is being literal, luke, the last jedi (IN NAME ONLY) has gone, and needs to be brought back (it's a plot point), because when the JEDI are not represented there can never be a counter measure to the SITH/KOR/DARK SIDE and the force is then out of balance.

what i guess it comes down to is simple
the force is neutral. it is a power to be drawn on.

I think in order for the force to be fully represented it has to be represented in all aspects.
people can practise and study the light side or the dark side and this doesn't have any negative impact on the world at large.

lets look at this from the begining.
The JEDI were the original LIGHT SIDE users, there were no SITH. so the force would be in balance, by your perspective.
And if thats it natural state and balanced. nothing would unbalance that.
but we know thats not the state it stayed in, nor can it ever be, because there will always be people in line with the darker aspects of our nature.

But that then makes the whole concept of the force. flawed. because it can never attain a natural state of homeostasis.
Darkness will always rise. This would make the force unperfected, never being able to maintain equilibrium.

so my perspective is that, it is its most balanced when it is in an EQUALY OPPOSED state.

This is strictly force knowledge and power. not how that is applied to advance the users political views.

 

But isn't the backstory that there was the Jedi Order and then within that a Jedi fell to the Dark Side and created the Sith?
The Sith Order, I imagine, then went on to disrupt the balance of the Force.

Why does that make the Force flawed though? How should it be?
The Force is the energy created by all living things. It isn't a God in the sense that it created life. Life created it.
And so when there is despair in the galaxy, this is what shifts the balance. Because the despair that life endures is then passed into the Force from the energy these lifeforms omit.

Just because there is someone in the universe powerful in the Force, that won't impact on other lifeforms lives.
You're saying for instance that there wouldn't be balance if there were several Jedi and 0 Sith.
That these Jedi would impact upon the balance, right?
But what would these Jedi be doing that caused this? They wouldn't be hurting anyone. Trying to gain power. Etc etc.
So if you have powerful Force users who are idle, how will that impact upon peoples lives to the point that the energy they create would imbalance the Force?

How do you quantify that though?
How many Jedi is Sidious worth? And what values are judged?
What do they have to do to impact upon the Force?

Surely it makes much more sense (and is backed up by Lucas) that the Sith are the ones who cause imbalance because they are powerful people that spread darkness across the galaxy? This darkness then causes despair, suffering and fear and thus the darkness dominates the light. This is the imbalance.
The Jedi are needed because only they have the tools to destroy the Sith/the cancer.
Once the Sith are destroyed, the Dark Side doesn't have the upper hand. It goes back to being balanced with the light - that is until someone else turns evil and uses the Dark Side again.

 

Yes that was my point.
And that will always be so.
So if it was truly in balance then, the Sith would never have naturally arose.

I would just move away fro the “DESPAIR IN THE GALAXY”, misery is a consequence of peoples miss use of power.
The force is not flawed, it is balanced only when there is EQUAL OPPOSITION.
No one has mentioned gods, or other out dated superstitions.
where not talking though about what created the force. its irrelevant.

Its not about number it’s more metaphorical than that.

Lets say there is only JEDI. To you the force would be in balance.
But that is not the case (as we have seen), because the SITH where born of the JEDI, and that potential, the potential for the SITH to arise, would always be there, this causes imbalance.
there is only ever true balance when each force is equally represented.

Your asking me now to thrash out the absolutes of the force. remember the original point about some of this being interpretive.
not numbers, people seem to sense disturbances, just Dualistic in nature. there has to be representations of each end of the spectrum. or from one side the other will always be treating to arise and this is not balanced.

If that were true they would have won and it been over when VADER killed the emperor wouldn’t it.
It would have meant the SITH never having arose in the first place because, if the order in the universe was balanced surely.
the threat will be ever present, which is not balanced is it.
true balance comes when there is a counter weight. JEDI == SITH

 

The potential of Sith to rise doesn't cause imbalance. The Sith existing and bringing destruction causes imbalance.
But that isn't to say that once balance has been restored it won't go out again. The Dark Side always exists - it is the darker emotions in us all.
So it will in fact inevitably rise again. People will turn to the Dark Side. There will likely be an imbalance because of this.
But that is why the Jedi are vital. Only they can counter the threat of those who turn to the Dark Side and use its power.
Their role is to destroy these Dark Side users. But yes, they will return, again and again because good and evil always exist.
But when a Dark Sider comes along they empower the evil in the universe and that is what drives the imbalance.

No, it doesn't mean that at all.
Like I said, good and evil exist. The Dark and the light always exist - together.
But what the Sith/Dark Side users do is empower the dark side, use it, spread it and take over the light - unbalancing the good and evil in the universe.
After Sidious and Vader are dead, the balance to the Force will return. It might be that it didn't return for long, but it did return.
But then, new forces of evil emerge. Evil begins to spread. Despair spreads across the galaxy. And the Force goes out of balance again.
This then results in the Jedi being "awakened", hearing the will of the Force. They are called to take action against these new evil doers.

It's the classic hero vs monster myth.
There is peace in the kingdom.
A dragon (the Sith) emerges and wreaks havoc.
A knight (the Jedi) slays the dragon.
Peace is restored throughout the kingdom.

I've never come across a myth or fairy tale where the evil baddie needs to co-exist with the hero for there to be peace.
Every time, the evil needs to be vanquished.

 

So how are the jedi bringing balance?
Do you think the prophesy should have said, temporary balance to the force.
Balance is consistent, and the only way to truly achieve this is EQUAL OPPOSITION.
jedi are important, but so are the sith EQUALY to maintaining it.

Well thats not true, there was jedi and no people who used the force negatively. that was what we agreed
then from the jedi was born evil, in the sense of dark side.
balance has to be maintained or there is imbalance.
balance can never be maintained with out EQUAL OPPOSITION

but its not the classic monster myth?
the force is a concept, and we are debating how we perceive the term balance to be Brough.
and only in EQUAL OPOSITION can the force truly be in balance.

-only good, bad will be waiting
-only bad, good will be waiting
-no one representing either, Both willl be waiting.

fairy tales are for children to grasp basic principles they deal in black and white, (only a sith deals in absolutes)

there is no dark side or light.

There is a force, and people who use it from a certain perspective?
some draw on negative emotions some on positive.

 

The prophesy was just a prophesy. It doesn't HAVE to say anything other than what it does. I'm sure over the thousands of years of their existence, there have been many prophesies made by many Jedi. How did they bring balance? As the prophesy says - a chosen one will be born who will bring balance. This is clarified later on by Kenobi and Co. by saying it means the destruction of the Sith.

Don't know what you mean by consistant. Balance in equality until one side gets more of something than the other. Then you have imbalance.
Good and evil, exisiting together - independent of Jedi and Sith, is balance.
When the Sith come along, they shift the balance to evil.
The Jedi then have to destroy the shift and balance good and evil again.

Don't follow.
You're agreeing here that there was a balance before the evil was born from the Jedi (the Sith).
There was a balance of good and evil in the universe before that point.
Then the Sith emerge and the balance is tipped towards evil.
The Jedi maintain the balance of good and evil.
The Sith increase the evil and thus tip the balance.

In your view. Which is wrong. As indicated by what happens in the films and what the maker says what his intention was.

BUT GOOD AND BAD EXIST OUTSIDE OF THE JEDI AND SITH.
That is the balance.
Again, the Sith empower the Darkness and cause the imbalance.

Star Wars is a fairy tale.
It's a fantasy adventure about good vs evil.

I agree that the Force is one energy field. But it is made up of good and bad, light and dark. In equal measure.
But the Sith increase the evil. The darkness. Until it takes over the light. Imbalance.
The Jedi remove the Sith which allows the light to return and be balanced with the dark.
The Force exists independently of the Jedi and Sith. But their use of the Force is the key factor.
A Sith uses the Force for evil and it makes them incredibly powerful and incredibly influential.
This is why they spread despair and fear. And by spreading this, the galaxy is essentially unhappy.
The people are unhappy.
So the Jedi come along, remove the Sith and good and evil are balanced again. It's not all peace. It's not all light. But it's normality.
There is a dark cloud over everything and everyone.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 14, 2016, Original Post Date: Jan 14, 2016 ---

@FallenAngel

Look at the Force as a swimming pool.
The Jedi maintain the pH value of the swimming pool.
The Sith come along and piss in it. They kill the Jedi. And they continue pissing in it. The swimmers (beings across the galaxy) have to swim in all this piss and are very unhappy. So they start crying and their snot goes in. And because they're scared they piss themselves too. So it's got all their unhappy snot and scared piss in it (despair).

The pH value of the pool is unbalanced. It's full of piss etc and needs cleaning.

A new swimming pool chemical guy (!) or Jedi comes along, kills the Sith and puts some chlorine in the pool. It balances again. Everyone is happy....until someone other guy comes along and starts pissing in the pool again.

OBI-WAN: (continuing) . . . You were the Chosen One! It was said that you would, destroy the Sith, not join them. It was you who would bring balance to the Force, not leave it in Darkness.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 14, 2016 ---

MACE WINDU
Why couldn't we see this attack on
the Senator?

YODA
Masking the future, is this
disturbance in the Force.

MACE WINDU
The prophecy is coming true, the
Dark Side is growing.

YODA
And only those who have turned to
the Dark Side can sense the
possibilities of the future. Only
going through the Dark Side can we
see.

MACE WINDU
It's been ten years, and the Sith
still have not shown themselves.
Do you think they are behind this?

YODA
...Out there, they are. A
certainty that is.

MACE WINDU
Do you think Obi-Wan's apprentice
will be able to bring balance to
the Force?

YODA
Only if he chooses to follow his
destiny.

 

@master_shaitan

we are talking the force.

Not good and bad.
Nor how a person uses the force.
Not fair tales that deal in black and white
Not power and the attainment of.

But the force as a concept of something to be drawn on and mastered.

1. we were debating the interpretation of the prophesy

"You refer to the prophecy of the one who will bring balance to the Force. You believe it's this…boy?"

I say he brought balance. but not literally himself. through him and his progeny.

And dude, Please no more swimming pools, laboured metaphors i can do with out lol

OBI-WAN: (continuing) . . . You were the Chosen One! It was said that you would, destroy the Sith, not join them

But this is my whole point and has been from the start.
The prophesy is interpretive, obi wan realise he had interpreted it wrong, as he spat them words at anikin.

 

...by destroying the Sith. And his progeny may just go on and do the same by destroying the new evil order in the galaxy.

You just need to differentiate the Jedi and Sith from what the Force actually is.
The Force is created by all life. It is naturally balanced between good and evil.
But the Sith, using the power of the Dark Side, shift that balance towards darkness and this impacts upon the lifeforms that CREATE THE FORCE.
When the galaxy is in despair = the Force they create though their energy/collective consciousness is in despair.
WHen the driving force behind this evil is removed, things go back to normal. An equal balance of good and evil.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 14, 2016, Original Post Date: Jan 14, 2016 ---

Come on @FallenAngel, you know I am right! Train yourself to let go of your theory!

 

i literal wrote this 2mins ago to you.

i will quote you to deal with this you sound mixed up, look at the next quote, its you telling your self .

This all sounds familiar, where did you come up with these ideas. hahahahahaha

one last time.

And finally @master_shaitan we have a WINNER!!!

 

@FallenAngel

I don't follow why you think I have it mixed up.

My point is simple.

Without the Jedi and Sith:
There is a balance of good and evil in the galaxy and thus the Force.

If there are Jedi but no Sith the balance remains as the Jedi don't add light they just stop the darkness from taking over should it emerge.
If there are Sith then the Dark Side/evil in the universe is magnified. It is increased. Spreads. Grows. Takes over. Then you have imbalance.

The numbers of Sith in the galaxy and/or their combined Force power isn't what puts the Force out of balance.
It is their actions - the action of oppressing the galaxy and causing despair.

 

yes that one of my points. because its balanced.

not true. snoke may have been around for thousands of years and not done anything other than master the dark side of the force.
it doesn't even mean he's bad. just subscribes to a different interpretation on the right path to full knowledge.

WHAT WE AGREE

With no jedi and sith there is balance.

QUESTION
so do you agree, as an extension of that point, that with equal sith and jedi practitioners of the light and dark side of the force there is balance.

because thats the same as no jedi and sith.

strictly in a study sense, like snoke who we agreed on before. void of evil action.