SPECULATION Clarification around snoke

Indeed. He has probably been around for a long time and learning about the Dark Side.
But if he isn't doing anything then he isn't going to cause an imbalance.
This shows that Force power is nothing to do with it. It's actions.

Balance is restored in ROTJ (if you disgaree with that then I can't help you). Snoke is alive at that point.
Only when Snoke becomes a player in galactic affairs does the Force go out of balance again.
Like I said, some guy in the far reaches of space learning about dark side lore but not doing any damage to anyone isn't going to cause imbalance.
Only those who spread evil across the galaxy and IMPACT UPON THE LIFEFORMS far and wide, will alter the balance of the Force.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 14, 2016, Original Post Date: Jan 14, 2016 ---

Yeah maybe. Although I would say he is bad. He is selfish. The Dark Side isn't the right path.

NO! I think I have made that clear over 5 pages!

No. It. Isn't.
The Sith cause imbalance because they spread darkness.
The jedi don't impact on the balance other than when they restore it by destroying the Sith.

If a Dark Sider exists but doesn't do evil then that won't cause imbalance.
So yes, strictly in a study sense, as long as it doesn't impact upon others, there can be balance.
However, they will invariably end up committing evil and thus at that point cause an imbalance and thus must be destroyed by the Jedi.

This is exactly what happened with the Sith.
The Jedi thought them dead but alas, 2 remained.
Over the years they slowly gained power and spread evil. The more this happened the more the Force went out of balance.
There weren't any more Sith. The Sith didn't become more powerful. They simply began to commit more evil.
Then come ROTS they have taken over and the Force is out of balance completely.

 

The force is irrelevant then.
If you have two sides at war. either sides perspective is that the other is bad.
knowledge of the force is what causes an imbalance, as well as its application.

People sensed an imbalance before an action had taken place with anikin.
"i sense a great imbalance in the force."

The phantom menace.
QUI-GON : Don't let them send ant transmissions. Be wary...I sense a
disturbance in the Force.
OBI-WAN : I fell it also, Master.


But there is also the old obi wan Quote
"i sense a great imbalance in the force like a thousand voices cried out then was extinguished."

this demonstrates one example through knowledge and presence and one through action.

 

No. The Force is the energy created by life that has been impacted by the Sith's evil.
The Sith perspective IS evil. They want to rule and gain power for their own means at any cost.
The Jedi serve the will of the Force.

Qui Gon says he senses a disturbance in the Force - because of the Sith emerging - Maul being near by.
During TPM events were being influenced by the Sith:
"At last we can reveal ourselves to the Jedi..."
This is when the imbalance speeds up and is felt by the Jedi.

Again, the quote is "I felt a great disturbance..."
It demonstrates the actions of evil beings in the galaxy and the impact it has upon everything and everyone else.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 14, 2016, Original Post Date: Jan 14, 2016 ---

Back to the origins of this debate.
I think Snoke is Plagueis.
I think Snoke was severely injured. And weakened.
He therefore lived in exile in the far reaches of space and watched the events transpire.
He is an evil man with Dark Side knowledge. But during this time he didn't do anything.
He wasn't spreading evil. He simply lived off the Dark Side to keep himself alive.
This is why he didn't impact upon the balance of the Force and hence how Anakin was able to restore balance whilst he [Snoke] was still alive.

But now Snoke has re-emerged. He had to as the Force's balance was restored and the Dark Side balanced with the light again. This weakened Snoke.
So he has to go out and actively spread the Dark Side again. Cause despair with the FO and KOR. Thus creating an imbalance and a powerful Dark Side again.
This sustains him and makes him stronger.
This is why it is more important than anything to kill Luke for only the Jedi can restore balance.
So Snoke/Plagueis, whoever the hell he is, is dragged into galactic affairs and has to take over the galaxy and destroy the jedi to make sure the Force remains unbalanced in favour of the Dark Side.

 

now we are getting some where.

WE AGREE

no Jedi or Sith. balance

just EQUALY OPPOSED Jedi and Sith. void of action. balance

Correct?

 

Yes, if the Jedi and Sith exist at the same time but the Sith are not actively doing anything, have retired from trying to take over so to speak, then yes balance will remain.
But when the Sith start acting as Sith do, then there will be imbalance.

However, the only explanation I could give for why a Sith Lord would retire is, as I say, they are gravely injured.
This way they would be too vulnerable to do much or even have a reason to. Yet their evil knowledge and mindset would remain.

This fits in with my theory of Snoke and why, after balance is restored and the Dark Side diminished, he needs to emerge and get back to his old job of spreading evil.

 

@master_shaitan
Just one simple question
If you were born a SITH and sore your master cut down by JEDI would you perceive the JEDI to be EVIL?
i am going some where with this. lol

 

You can't be born a Sith.
But if I was indoctrinated into the Sith Order from a young age, yes I would think the Jedi evil. As we see in ROTS, Vader deems the Jedi evil (although how much he really believes that I don't know).
But it would be wrong to think that.

The Sith actively use anger, hatred and aggression to empower themselves which it turns causes suffering in others.
That is evil

 

@master_shaitan
so the application of each side of the force comes down to perspectives?

by each force user. who believes them self to be right and advancing there own orders power.?

do you agree.

not how they apply it yet, just the principle?

assuming you agree?

we arrive at THE GOOD EVIL DEBATE.

Good and Evil are concepts, there not real.
There is no good and there is no evil.

when two waring countries fight which ever side you are born on is the good side and which ever you are fighting is the EVIL

 

A Sith might, just might, think they are doing the right thing.
Anakin kind of justifies his actions as he believes he is trying to save Padme.

But at the end of the day, Anakin gave into fear.
He used anger and hatred.
He killed the Jedi - younglings!
He ensured the creation of the Empire.
And because of his actions, the person he wanted to save, died.

So he might think he was doing good but he wasn't.
Because his perspective of the Dark Side was positive that doesn't mean it is thus that doesn't impact on the reasoning behind the balance of the Force.

His evil actions furthered the imbalance - regardless of his suspect motivations and perspective.

Look at it this way:
A terrorist might think he is doing what is right.
But I am sure we agree that the murder of innocents isn't right. The terrorist is committing evil acts.
They need to stop the evil or be destroyed.
Terrorism is evil. Regardless of the perspective of the terrorist.

 

Remember samuel l jackson. he thought he was doing good by killing the emperor with out trial?
thats just the same.
anikin tried to stop him.

 

@FallenAngel I edited out my "no" response. Yes, I agree both Jedi and Sith largely think they are on the right side. That they have the correct perspective.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 14, 2016, Original Post Date: Jan 14, 2016 ---

Like I said, grey area.
His reasoning was valid. He was going to arrest him but then the lightning attack changed his mind.
But to be honest that was a badly written, unplanned scene that Lucas rewrote on the day of the shoot.
However, I'd say that Windu's actions are open to debate. Should he have just asked Anakin to help him arrest Sidious?
Maybe, they might have been able to. But Windu saw the situation was dire. He saw that Sidious was behind everything and that the fate of the galaxy was at stake. With the Force clouded by the Dark Side he had to act fast and eliminate the threat.

 

cool.

WHAT WE AGREE
No Jedi or Sith, balance
Equal opposed Jedi and Sith, void of action, balance,
Jedi and Sith largely think they are on the right side. That they have the correct perspective.

So how do judge who is making actions that are “good” and “evil”

 

If you oppress people, spread fear, kill and murder innocents, enslave and torture I think it is safe to say that this is the evil action.
If you free people, spread hope and peace, use compassion and love and seek to serve rather than rule then that is the good action.

Who judges it? In regards to Star Wars - the collective consciousness of the galaxy.
If the Force is unbalanced then that means the life that creates the Force is "unhappy".
In the movies, the Force is unbalanced when the Sith take over.
So the Force is essentially saying - the Sith are evil.

 

but we have established that each sides actions effect the other the same, from each others perspective thats what they are doing.
millions died on the death star. they would have had family who now perceive the jedi to be equally wrong?

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So when anikin struck him down. while windu was full blow DARKSIDE mode.
Anilkn’s perspective was he was GOOD and windu was EVIL. and rightly so.
Anikin wanted him to stand trial.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 14, 2016 ---

this is only taken from the jedi prophesy and quotes also taken from other jedi.

 

....in self defence. The Death Star was about to destroy another planet which the rebels were on - the only people who could take the fight to the Empire and free the entire galaxy. If the Death Star wasn't destroyed then the galaxy would never be free:

"Pursued by the Empire's sinister agents, Princess Leia races home aboard her starship, custodian of the stolen plans that can save her people and restore freedom to the galaxy...."

We established that both sides have their own POV. Not that both POV's are right. The evil way is wrong!

No. Windu wasn't in dark side mode. He was in - destroy the sith mode and restore freedom.
Anakin's perspective wasn't "good". He wanted to save Sidious so he could learn the ways of the Dark Side to save Padme.
Only Mace had the fate of the galaxy at heart.

 

@master_shaitan
all are understanding comes from one perspective that of the jedi.
but we earlier established that

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 14, 2016, Original Post Date: Jan 14, 2016 ---

but anikins where pure.
save life of girlfriend.
stop execution of unarmed man.

 

You're ignoring the important part:

The Sith think they are right but they are wrong!
They use evil to spread evil to make themselves more powerful.

Is a terrorist right in thinking they are in the right? No. They commit evil.
Is Vader in the right when he slaughters children so he can be powerful enough to save Padme (and rule the galaxy with her)? NO!

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It wasn't pure. It was at best misguided. At worst incredibly selfish and evil.
Anakin wanted to keep Palpatine alive because of his "fear of losing Padme".
His own fears. He puts those above everything else.
He knows what the Sith have done. He even argues against the Sith. But then Palaptine puts Padme's life front and centre.
It's her or the galaxy.
Anakin selfishly chooses Padme - because of his own fears.

"What do you think Padme would do if she was in your position?!"
"She would do her duty".

Anakin shouldn't have let his fear lead him to commit such horrible acts.
He killed kids!
And in the end, this decision results in Padme's death!

So no, Anakin's POV wasn't the right choice. It was the evil choice.

 

do you believe if windu wouldn't have tried to kill pal

no your missing the point its still perspectives. its war rather side thinks there right the side that kills the most of the other wins.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 14, 2016, Original Post Date: Jan 14, 2016 ---

i said pure, Big difference, and you are over looking agin he was telling them to stand trial.
if this would have happened, palpatine would have been convicted, anikin would never have fallen and the jedi would not have been destroyed.

 

So you're saying the Sith AND the Jedi are evil? Or good? Or neither?

From what I see:

The Jedi try to save the galaxy and restore freedom.
The Sith create war and destruction and create an oppressive Empire.

If you can't tell which is right and which is wrong, then as Kenobi tells Anakin:

"You're lost!"

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 14, 2016, Original Post Date: Jan 14, 2016 ---

You think Palpy would've actually stood trial and gone down quietly? You don't think that his control of the senate and the courts wouldn't have allowed him to get away with it? That in the end, he would've ensured Anakin free him so he can save Padme?

Come on!

 

@master_shaitan

it's simply not that simplistic. remember the fairy tales. NOT BLACK AND WHITE.
Do we agree then that GOOD is a perspective? as in anikins case

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 14, 2016, Original Post Date: Jan 14, 2016 ---

thats just crazy speculation. stick to facts

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 14, 2016 ---

@master_shaitan
Do we agree then that GOOD is a perspective? as in anikins case

have you given up?

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 14, 2016 ---

@master_shaitan

You said this earlier.

but we have established, as in the case of Anikin that evil is a perspective.
The believe of being right or a belief that the other person is wrong.

Good and Evil do not exist. they are a view adopted by each opposing side.

So the balance of the force is decided by each sides mastery of the force.
or each sides actions whether they be light or dark side actions.
the main point being either side CAN EFFECT the force balance.

if either side has an unbalanced advantage, the force is unbalanced.
in the absence of good or evil, all that remains is which side gets the upper hand.
and if either side gets the upper hand, the balance is shifted.

We agreed earlier

No Jedi or Sith, balance
Equal opposed Jedi and Sith, void of action, balance,



so either sides actions can unset the balance of the force. and the force is only fully in balance, you guessed it.

WHEN THEY ARE EQUALLY OPPOSED


MY VIEW
The force is in balance when it is equally opposed.
That is to say, equally opposed sides who have mastered the force in there respective fields, knowledge and the applied use of the force to the attainment of there goals.
neither side has an advantage, in either knowledge of the force, nor having applied it.

would you agree we can add this to the agreed list.
Equal opposed sides who's actions have not unbalanced the force.