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SPECULATION Clarification around snoke

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by Callosbruh, Dec 18, 2015.

  1. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi General

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    Star Wars is a fantasy - with goodies and baddies. The baddies might think they're good but everything they do and even the way they look tell us that they are bad.

    LOL.

    What part of that is crazy speculation?!! It's all from the films!

    People have a POV of their own actions. People can justify their deeds or try to.
    But I think it is as plain as day that the Sith are evil. What they do is evil. Regardless of how some Scum bag might justify their actions.


    With you? Yes. About 4 pages back.

    I'm not doing this again.
    The Sith cause imbalance. I have provided proof from the movies and the person who wrote the saga. You are wrong.


    I don't know what you mean anymore.

    It's like this.

    The Force in it's natural state is balanced between good and evil.
    The Sith come along and tip the balance towards evil.
    The Jedi seek to destroy the Sith and restore the balance between good and evil.

    The balance of the Force is simply the balance of good and evil in the galaxy.
    Good being everything from compassion, to love, to loyalty, to friendship...
    Evil being selfishness, hate, greed etc...
    These good and bad things in the universe impact upon all life.
    It is this life that creates the Force itself.
    When this life is IN DESPAIR the energy it creates is largely negative.
    So then the Force itself is more dark than light - unbalanced.
    And it is the Sith who are able to spread this evil across the galaxy.
    So the Jedi then seek to destroy the Sith and allow the balance to return to normal - good and evil both equal. Balanced. In harmony.

    The end. I'm done. I can't spend more time discussing this. I have the films and Lucas backing up my views - as well as the events and dialogue from TFA.
     
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  2. FallenAngel

    FallenAngel Rebelscum

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    @master_shaitan
    MY VIEW
    The force is in balance when it is equally opposed.
    That is to say, equally opposed sides who have mastered the force in there respective fields, knowledge and the applied use of the force to the attainment of there goals.
    neither side has an advantage, in either knowledge of the force, nor having applied it.

    would you agree we can add this to the agreed list.
    Equal opposed sides who's actions have not unbalanced the force.

    @master_shaitan did you agree this last point?
     
    #122 FallenAngel, Jan 14, 2016
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2016
  3. FallenAngel

    FallenAngel Rebelscum

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    @master_shaitan

    PERSPECTIVES


    SIDE NOTE
    when we talked about what parts of emotion the SITH and JEDI draw on i thought the JEDI code had been distorted some what, from the original meaning.
    I found this clip between OBI-WAN and LUKE

    controlling and confronting your fear, using controlled aggression, not letting your enemy dictate your emotional state.

    "they do you credit"

    i have started a new thread about what the new jedi code should be.
    https://thecantina.starwarsnewsnet.com/index.php?threads/lukes-new-jedi-code.8676/

    Now that luke is the last surviving jedi.
    whats your take on it?
     
    #123 FallenAngel, Jan 15, 2016
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2016
  4. FallenAngel

    FallenAngel Rebelscum

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    @master_shaitan


    “you were the chosen one”
    “it was said that you would destroy the sith not join them”
    “bring balance to the force not lead it to darkness”



    YODA “a prophesy that miss read could have been”

    you understand that the prophesy says
    "You refer to the prophecy of the one who will bring balance to the Force."

    obi-wan misinterpreted it because it wasn't about destroying the sith.
    and how balance being brought is iterpriive. hence "miss read"
     
    #124 FallenAngel, Jan 15, 2016
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2016
  5. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi General

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    Both these clips back up my argument...
     
  6. FallenAngel

    FallenAngel Rebelscum

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    if you remember my initial point was. the prophesy is interpretive.

    set out your argument


    In clear concise points

    WHAT WE AGREED SO FAR

    No Jedi or Sith, balance
    Equal opposed Jedi and Sith, void of action, balance,
    Jedi and Sith largely think they are on the right side. That they have the correct perspective.

     
  7. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi General

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    A prophesy was made by someone in the past that predicted dark times ahead but the birth of a chosen one who would restore the balance.
    Balance is when dark and light, good and bad are equal.
    Imbalance is when darkness is the dominant side of the Force.
    The Sith cause this imbalance by spreading evil everywhere.
    The Jedi think they are on the right side and they are right to think so. They do the Force's will.
    The Sith justify their actions and say they have the right perspective BUT they are wrong. They spread evil and go against the will of the Force.

    How's that?
     
  8. FallenAngel

    FallenAngel Rebelscum

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    @master_shaitan

    just found this, i have not wrote this what do you make of it?

    Was he the Chosen One?


    Qui Gon believed he was, and presented evidence to that fact to the Jedi Council: (a) Anakin had a higher midiclorian count than any Force User ever encountered and (b) he was the product of immaculate conception. As if to reinforce the claims, Yoda, a Master of reading the possible timelines of the future, always found his future very difficult to see, as if the Force was clouding it deliberately in order to protect him and allow him to achieve his destiny.

    What does that mean?

    The very simplistic answer is that Anakin would be instrumental in the events leading to the the destruction of the Jedi Order. With only 2 "Sith" (i.e., Palpatine and Vader -- the "Bad Guys") and only 2 Jedi (i.e., Yoda and Obi-Wan) left on either side, everything was in balance.

    However I've never been satisfied with that explanation in the holistic view of the Star Wars Universe.

    By way of history, the Jedi Order was only one of myriad schools of thought and practice in how to use and wield the Force. They believed that the Order and Control was the appropriate way to use the Force.

    For example -- others encountered in the Star Wars canon and expanded universe were the Witches of Dathomir, who used the Force through nature rituals, and the Gand Findsmen, who used the Force subconciously and via complex rituals and meditation to track targets anywhere throughout the Galaxy.

    The Sith were another school of thought, who believed in using Force through Passion and Feeling. Many of thier powers revolved around mental and sensory manipulation rather than physical feats. During the Golden Age of the Republic (thousands of years before Star Wars), the Sith Empire at it's height was far from simply evil -- it had, like any culture, good and evil members, and produced fantastic art and culture. It should be noted here that there is a distinct difference between a Sith and a Dark Jedi. A Sith is a practioner of the Sith "School" of the Force - we encounter only 1 confirmed and known one in the Star Wars movies -- Palpatine. A Dark Jedi is a member of the Jedi Order who has embraced the Dark Side of the Force. In short -- a Jedi, Light or Dark, cannot be a Sith, any more than a Christian (or Satanist -- both believe in God) can be a Pagan Viking worshipper of Odin.

    So 4,000 ago, the first "balance" happened -- the Republic and the Sith Empire finally encountered each other and as often happens, war ensued. Jedi and Sith led their armies into battle, and pretty much both sides were wiped out with the Jedi winning. The Sith went underground, fell upon themselves after a period of internal decay, and eventually only 1 was left. He took an apprentice and they stayed hidden in that cycle of 2 Sith until the time of the movies. The Jedi rebuilt themselves and the Republic went on.

    It is interesting to note at this point that the Republic then spent the next 4,000 years stagnating -- very little new technology was developed, corruption and decay slowly set it.

    The inferance from the movies (and the books) is that the Force is essentially a Gaia construct -- an hive mind intelligence of sorts, but not quite self aware. In this context, the meaning thus becomes that the Force, through the Chosen One, wanted to have the effect of a "Great Flood" -- a cleaning of the slate and shaking up of the status quo -- Anakin being instrumental in the wiping out of the Jedi Order is a tiny part of this. It is not until Anakin as Vader turns on and kills Palpatine that his destiny is fullfilled. And a major part of that destiny is not only being a driving force in creating the Empire and thus a focal point for sentient life, through the Rebels, to rise up and express all that was vibrant and passionate about life (ie: one cannot be "good" unless "evil" exists from which to form a basis of comparison), but more importantly, shaping his son and daughter through these events, into the leaders for a new society and age and thus revitalizing the universe again -- breaking the Force and the lives it needs to exist out of its rut and back into the cyclic balance of life and death, good and evil, order and chaos and creation and decay.
     
  9. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi General

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    @FallenAngel

    I disagree with nearly every word. On so many levels.
    If The Chosen One was supposed to reduce the Jedi's numbers and influence (which I utterly disagree with as Jedi don't cause imbalance) then that would suggest that the imbalance was mainly on their side up until they were all destroyed. If that is the case, why was that imbalance bad for the Jedi? I mean, there were thousands of them and going by this theory, the imbalance in favour of their perspective. More light than dark. Surely that would be a good thing for them?

    Instead, what we see in the films is that the Dark Side is everywhere and Yoda explains how the Dark Side clouds everything.
    The stagnation of the Republic and the Jedi to some extent prevented them from routing out the Sith - it didn't directly impact the balance (like the Sith do) but they failed somewhat in their duty.

    The reason Anakin's future was clouded was because of the impending Dark Side influence and because it wasn't set in stone that Anakin would bring balance. It was his destiny - as in that was what he was born to do but he had to choose to do it. As Lucas says, at first IT APPEARS THAT THE PROPHESY IS WRONG as he turns evil but at the end it is shown to be right as he does destroy the Sith.

    "I think it is obvious that [Qui-Gon] was wrong in Episode I and made a dangerous decision, but ultimately this decision may be correct. The “phantom menace” refers to the force of the dark side of the universe. Anakin will be taken over by dark forces which in turn destroy the balance of the Galaxy, but the individual who kills the Emperor is Darth Vader—also Anakin. The tale meanders and both the prediction and Qui-Gon are correct—Anakin is the chosen one, and he did bring peace at last with his own sacrifice. Luke couldn't kill the Emperor himself, but he could make Anakin reflect on his life and kill the Emperor."

    --George Lucas, Cut Magazine interview, 1999


    Now my point of view is exactly in line with what Lucas says. It's backed up in the movies. Nothing indicates that the Jedi had to be removed. They weren't unbalancing the Force. The Sith were.

    Again, you keep talking about the Jedi and Sith as if they are the balance of the Force. That their good and evil, light and dark is what the Force consists of.
    It isn't. The Force is the energy of ALL LIVING THINGS. ALL GOOD + EVIL.
    The Jedi seek to maintain that balance.
    The Sith come along and look to INCREASE that evil. This unbalances the Force.

    As for all that EU stuff - that is meaningless to me.
    A Sith empire simply wouldn't have good members. That is an oxymoron.
    You're a Sith because you desire more power, cultivate hatred, greed and fear and use the Force in unnatural ways. You can't be good and do that at the same time.
    Hence all that EU stuff in nonsense.
     
  10. Rieekan

    Rieekan SWNN Hawkeye
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  11. FallenAngel

    FallenAngel Rebelscum

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    @master_shaitan i told you at the start IDID NOT WRITE ANY OF THIS?
    just wanted your take on it and thought it might bring another perspective into the discussion?

    i do not class the E.U as part of starwars. just cannon. by your own token though, you have to stop quoting GEORGE LUCAS.
    What he made is cannon, not what he say's in interviews. Though i respect his views greatly. are we agreed.
    --- Double Post Merged, Jan 15, 2016, Original Post Date: Jan 15, 2016 ---


    Only the movie, book and tv.show are cannon, not interviews come on. WEAK

    he also said this, what can we say, some times he's just wrong.
     
  12. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi General

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    I know, but it seemed to be a piece that supports your view.

    Indeed. His view can now be altered in the ST. But I see no evidence of his view of the balance being altered. I also think that if there are 2 theories and one has the quotes of the creator on their side and the other does not then the former is likely the correct interpretation of what is happening.
    --- Double Post Merged, Jan 15, 2016, Original Post Date: Jan 15, 2016 ---
    Weak? LOL!
    These are the words of the creator who sought to make the film show what he says in this video.
    His intention is that the balance is disrupted by the Sith and it is balanced by destroying the Sith.
    That is what Lucas wrote. Said. Filmed.
    I think it is clear to see on screen. You think it is something else. But, well, your interpretation is wrong.
    If you want to go on thinking this, go ahead. It's up to you.
    But you shouldn't use it as an argument against others who have all the evidence on their side.
    What's more, I fear you are missing out on the actual point being made in the movies and thus getting a skewed view of the story.
     
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  13. FallenAngel

    FallenAngel Rebelscum

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    we have already long since established that i to do not except any notion or GOOD and EVIL, only perspective, so the sith good and evil stuff i tow disagree with.
    though i do subscribe to there's two being a rich culture as we have already seen they have myths and allegories used to teach. we have actually seen very little of the sith. in any real sense.
    --- Double Post Merged, Jan 15, 2016, Original Post Date: Jan 15, 2016 ---
    Doesn't lucas even say, he brings balance because he is redeemed BY HIS SON
    if anything this would make my point not detract from it.
    he doe NOT directly cause the effect. HIS SON does.

    the prophesy Which you take to be START anikin STOP anikin. Is interpretive. bloodlines, remember?
     
  14. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi General

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    He means that allows Anakin to fulfill the prophesy. Come on, you're clutching at straws there. Anakin brings balance. Not Luke.

    You know, they might just make this the case. They might have it that Rey is a Skywalker, or maybe just Kylo, and it is their destiny to restore balance again. I doubt it. But maybe. Don't have an issue with that.

    It's how they bring balance that we are discussing. And they won't do it by ensuring that the Jedi and Dark Siders (Sith/KOR) are equal but by destroying those that wield the Dark Side.

    And going back to my theory, it will be by diminishing the Dark Side, balancing the Force, that will make Snoke vulnerable to death.
     
  15. FallenAngel

    FallenAngel Rebelscum

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    @master_shaitan

    WHAT WE AGREE REFERENCE


    1. No Jedi or Sith, balance
    2. Equal opposed Jedi and Sith, void of action, balance,
    3. Jedi and Sith largely think they are on the right side. That they have the correct perspective.

    This is a brilliant point. REF 3. And perspectively each side see’s the other as dark and light respectively.

    so when one side is unbalanced there is imbalance in the force. right
     
  16. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi General

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    No, the Sith know they use the Dark Side. The Jedi know they use the light side.

    "You don't know the power of the Dark Side".

    The two sides of the Force don't become unbalanced within themselves. The Force becomes unbalanced because there is more dark than light in the universe.
    The balanced state of the Force is both light and dark being equal.

    The Jedi and the Sith are simply the tools who's actions impact upon the balance - either restoring it or unbalancing it.
    The Balance of the Force itself is it's own thing. The balance of power within the energy created by all living things.

    It is utterly irrelevant if Vader for instance thinks he is doing the right thing in turning to the Dark Side.
    The fact is, he isn't. By turning to the Dark Side he becomes an agent of evil - oppressing the galaxy, killing innocents, using hatred and anger.
    It doesn't matter what perspective you have - what Vader does IS EVIL and these actions (of the Sith) result in the unbalance.
     
  17. FallenAngel

    FallenAngel Rebelscum

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    i was just looking back to your earlier thesis.

    Are we agreed the prophesy is very interpretative and could potentially still be unfulfilled.
     
  18. Maximus

    Maximus Reel 2 Dialogue 2

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    just gonna squeeze a noob question in here if nobody minds?

    is it canon that the force is actually in balance at the end of ROTJ?

    loving the discussion @master_shaitan and @FallenAngel :)
     
  19. FallenAngel

    FallenAngel Rebelscum

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    haha, thanks.
    no it's assumed as to be the case but only in as much as vader and the emperor are dead.
    thats the beauty, it seemed to mean one thing and we all assumed that was the case but now its emerging they could have been wrong
    as YODA says “a prophesy that miss read could have been”
    --- Double Post Merged, Jan 15, 2016, Original Post Date: Jan 15, 2016 ---

    --- Double Post Merged, Jan 15, 2016 ---
    @master_shaitan

    The DARK and the LIGHT have no negative connotations beyond which emotions are used to elicit the force.

    you see the dark as EVIL and the light as GOOD


    The dark and light

    The sith use the teachings of the jedi, as well as there own, discovered from drawing on the darker emotions.
    We already agreed earlier some of the jedi rules needed updating, and i have a poll running at the moment saying every one agrees that the rules need updating.
    for instance, passion

    How can any one call passion a DARK SIDE emotion?
    You need passion to fight and win.
    Being passionate about preserving peace.
    But passion as seen by the early JEDI was prohibited.
    as was LOVE

    The sith draw on passion. but that does not make them EVIL does it?
    Because a jedi uses the DARK EMOTION of LOVE is he EVIL?

    you would have been considered a DARKSIDE USER just for being passionately in love. lol

    We have to agree EVIL and GOOD cannot be established they are a perspective.
    Dark and Light have no negative connotation.

    Can we agree on that?

    because this is important and i will explain why in a second.

    can we agreed?

    no EVIL and GOOD?
    no DARK and LIGHT as a means of them assuming GOOD and EVIL roles.
     
  20. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi General

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    More of a battle of wills than a discussion! Glad you're enjoying it though!

    I'm not too sure what is canon and what isn't these days.
    My view is that it is canon as Lucas has said balance was restored and to go against that would be a bit crazy in my view.
    A canon entry in Wookieepedia claims it is canon too.
    --- Double Post Merged, Jan 15, 2016, Original Post Date: Jan 15, 2016 ---
    But the Dark Side is both those bad emotions within people and also the dark energy of the cosmic force - this dark energy is born from evil, hatred, fear etc.


    Because passion is selfish desire.
    "They rely on their passion for their strength, they think inwardly - only about themselves" - Anakin talking about the Sith.

    Passion is a strong and barely controllable emotion. A Jedi must act in a calm way to see the right path.
    A Jedi acts out of COMpassion - a selfless caring for other beings.
    And as Anakin says:
    "Compassion, which I would define as unconditional love, is essential to a Jedi's life. So you might say, that we are encouraged to love".


    Yes, it does. It leads them down a dark path. Because of their passions they seek more power. And the seek this through the Dark Side.


    Unconditional love is not a dark emotion. It is this kind of love that redeemed Anakin.


    So is murdering innocents not evil? Is killing children so you can become more powerful not evil?

    Absolutely not.

    One last time.
    The Dark Side is evil.
    The Light Side is good.
    Good - compassion, love, selflessness, friendship, peace, hope...
    Evil - passion, selfishness, hatred, anger, aggression, greed, fear...

    The Force is made up of these two sides (with the neutral energy created by other life).
    It is equal within the Force and in the universe.

    The Jedi use their compassion etc - the light side, to maintain this balance.
    The Sith use their passion - the dark side to further their own power and corrupt the balance.

    That's how it is. End of story.
    --- Double Post Merged, Jan 15, 2016 ---
    It isn't how it is at the moment BUT it could be written this way by the new people in charge.
    It could be that they change it so after Sidious' demise, Snoke appeared rather quickly and continued spreading evil.
    And only with his destruction, by the offspring of Anakin, can balance be truly restored.

    They might write that in.
    I doubt it. I think they will just go beyond the prophesy - leave that as one prediction made about one moment in time.
    I don't really care about that.

    What this debate with you is about is how balance is restored.
    You say Jedi and Sith existing in harmony. Using equal good and evil.
    I say balance = no Sith as they actively spread evil which is what causes imbalance.
     
    #140 master_shaitan, Jan 15, 2016
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2016
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