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Collider Jedi Council: Will Kylo Ren Become As Evil as Darth Vader in Episode IX?

Discussion in 'SWNN News Feed' started by SWNN Probe, May 12, 2018.

  1. Ammianus Marcellinus

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    Yes :p I literally didn't stop analysing. So let's try again

    There are other options for a man who already might consider himself to be redeemed. It is definitely not going to be the redemption story we've seen before. Perhaps the redemption will not be in Kylo but in a certain specific group of people under his command ;) - which again is partly analysis............

    So my personal opinion.........hmmmmmm..........perhaps I feel that the more Kylo's arc progresses the more inhumane he becomes. And yes, that means he might become more "evil" than Vader ever was. He has an inverted hero's journey and breaks off pieces of his humanity along the way. He's going to try to fulfill Vader's destiny, to break all of it and craft something new (similar to what Luke intended by staying away from the fight). He's going to let it all die. His good fight. At least, that is his mission as I understand it. He believes all his emotional anchors to be gone. Han, Leia, Luke, their memory only a nuisance, a remindee of his former self or perhaps also revealing his true self.

    However, I also find it difficult to believe that a person who is presented as murdering people in cold blood, either with or without regret, is going to be presented as someone who is going to be redeemed like Vader was. This man Kylo, on screen, ordered the execution of pisoners in cold blood. A defining moment for the start of another redemption story which is much more significant than a possible redemption of Kylo. Finn is a revolt against the notion that people committing atrocity are just small pieces in an evil and persecuting impersonal machine (contra "banality of evil"). The people who commit evil who claim that they're "just doing their job". We have Finn identifying with Rey, and succesively with the resistance. What now remains is showing that he is not unique. That his example is indeed the seed/ or spark that will burn the First Order down. So what if the stormtroopers get redeemed instead of Kylo. That would for me be a more powerful and satisfying emotional message in my opinion. It would signify that when we as individuals are forced to do something we don't want to or consider to be evil we always have a choice. That choice might have consequences for the safety of our own persons those we love. But it is our choice.

    Now the writers could of course go anywhere. They could craft a beautiful redememption story for Kylo. They could craft a beautiful story in which he is not redeemed. I also see reasons why someone might think that Kylo might be redeemed. There's enough there. I just hope it won't be too much like ROTJ. I trust they're smart enough to conclude the story in a significant and satisfying manner......


    ....................

    and without f-ing ewoks :p

    nub nub
     
  2. Kylocity

    Kylocity Rebel General

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    Yes! (jawa)




    I get where you are coming from, although, interestingly, for me, so far I see exactly the opposite. I see evidence of Kylo’s struggling with carrying out his dehumanising atcs and gaining nothing from them, incapable of living up to his dogma. However, this could all change in the next instalment. I shall wait and see.

    That is letting moral imperatives and judgements put limits to all possibilities in a character development and evolution. Kylo may not be redeemed, but it won’t be because he’s killed people in cold blood.
    Writers enjoy working with this kind of challenges. Looking no further, Lucas himself created a whole trilogy to justify Vader.

    I love this. Yes, please! :)


    That’s a fair request. Parallel but not identical could also work.

     
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  3. Ammianus Marcellinus

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    I understand that. There is enough there in any case. The paradigm here I guess is Kylo killing Han and regretting it ("the deed has split your mind"). Every dehumanizing step he willingly sets on his way to become the successor of the dehumanized idol Darth Vader (or perhaps his wish to supersede Vader) actually reminds him how much of a human he still actually is. It is poetic in a way and at least much more interesting than Vader's turn.

    Perhaps. I think for me the difference here lies in the fact that we never see Vader commit atrocity on screen. It is either behind closed doors or inferred (torture droid enters with Leia, does not actively participate in the torture of Han) or it concerns people we already consider to be the bad guys (lets say that Vader likes a flexible command structure :p). With Kylo the violent act or atrocity is always right there, right on the screen, you see it and he actively takes part in it. He tortures. He commands. He kills. I fear that it will be difficult for people to come to grips with the redemption of a person they have seen so explicitely committing atrocity. The writers might shun away from that option precisely because of that reason. But then again, his "redemption" might be represented quite differently from how we've seen it previously.

    Perhaps it is the same discussion people have had about Anakin. How is it possible for Padmé not to be really angry. To always comfort Anakin and to continue trying to "bring him back" and even to exclaim in the end that "there is still good in him". A lot of people thought this romance was rather difficult to digest and the way the romance was set up made it all very unbelievable for some people. "How does Padmé like such a detestable person?" "We've explicitely seen him murder a village, kill women and children (and dogs :p), he murdered younglings (we didn't see it but Obi Wan did!)".

    There is a reason why a lot of people think Kylo is irredeemable and shouldn't be redeemed. They've seen him murder a village on screen. Torture Poe. Mind rape Rey. Murder childhood favourite Han Solo and heard Kylo explain how he was going to destroy all of it, the girl, the resistance, the jedi, all of it. Now I do not necessarily believe that Kylo shouldn't be redeemed, but I do understand people who do not want him to be redeemed. I am convinced the writers are aware of that. Still, the choice is theirs. Abrams pushed these characters in a certain direction and probably knows well enough where their trajectories are supposed to be going.
     
  4. Kylocity

    Kylocity Rebel General

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    I don’t. I think people should want a good story, period. No conditions. And let the storytellers do their job.

    I think the story is heading for redemption and think it would be a good ending, but I don’t “want” it. It’s not my story to tell.
     
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  5. Ammianus Marcellinus

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    Well, there are enough indications to argue that Kylo is heading for redemption. That is a completely legitimate view.

    And I'm glad you are one of those people who can distinguish between their expectations and the actual result.

    People who desperately want stuff only to be disappointed are probably in the "For those who hated the movie" thread :p I sojourned there for a while, trying to find out what makes them tick. Most of it has to do with "this didn't go the way I think" type of reception. Like you, I hope that the writers are completely free in writing their material and do not concern themselves too much (if, better, not at all) with what fans want or other forms of activism. They of course need to take into account their audience, but I just hope....not too much :p

    If you were to describe what for you would be the most satisfying ending for Kylo, what would that be? You said you think Kylo is up for redemption. How would that work in IX, in your opinion?
     
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  6. Kylocity

    Kylocity Rebel General

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    I’m an idealist. I’d love to see Kylo reformed. But for that, something needs to happen that makes him reconsider his bad choices and have a change of heart. Something connected to his childhood I would imagine.
    I do feel that one film only will not be long enough to give Kylo a happy ending, so I predict that at the end of 9 he, heartbroken at the realisation that Rey does not return his feelings for her, will have a failed attempt of suicidal self sacrifice that will end up with him leaving the galaxy in a self-imposed exile.

    We will have to wait for another future trilogy to see a fully reformed Kylo. Someone will try to find him, like Rey went to seek Luke. This will be the opportunity he needs to reconnect with Rey and have a love story... an even a child :)
     
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  7. Too Gon Onbourbon

    Too Gon Onbourbon Rebelscum

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    I'm thinking the shooting of the prisoners at all deserves some serious consideration.

    "I was just following orders" is not a justification but an excuse.

    Anakin didn't mean to kill Padme? What did he think he was doing, giving her a vitamin?
     
  8. metadude

    metadude Rebelscum

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    But didn't it take significantly less than one movie to do the same for Vader? It took like, ten seconds. Luke was being killed, Vader intervened. I should think the same could hold true for Kylo. He could need about ten seconds and something to do with Rey. It took him about ten seconds to turn on Snoke when Snoke was threatening Rey. I'm not saying that it must only take ten seconds, but that, ten seconds of time would be consistent with the previous series.

    If that were a bet, I'd take it. I can't imagine the story not wrapping up in IX with a Kylo redemption and a nice, bow on top of the trilogy and series itself. For starters, I think it would cause rioting in the streets (not by everyone, but by a large enough group) if they walked out of the theater still having to wait for more answers. It would be potential chaos and I seriously doubt Disney would even want to chance that at all. But more to the point, I think at this point in time Disney just wants to end the episodic Skywalker story and be done with it. Finish it, happy ending, put it on the shelf, never go near it again, and make for new ground.
     
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  9. Kylocity

    Kylocity Rebel General

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    I do not consider Vader’s death a happy ending. It was an optimistic ending, as he was redeemed, yes, but that’s all. By a happy ending I mean a future for Kylo, perhaps with Rey, perhaps on board of the Falcon... I don’t know. Maybe JJ and Terio will give us something hopeful that will bring a smile to everyone’s lips. I really hope so.


    It would be silly of Disney and Lucasfilm to be unduly affected by the fundamentalistic demands of a few fans. I only hope that they continue making successful movies in a business-as-usual manner. Trilogies seem to work best and the public in general respond well to characters they already know. Rey and Kylo are the most popular characters in the ST and I and many others would love if they used them again in a future trilogy... but please, so that no one has a hissy fit or has their childhood ruined, without Luke or Vader ghosts... let’s let the past day, lads, let’s absolutely kill it.
     
    #49 Kylocity, Jul 6, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2018
  10. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order, Then Pie
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    the perspective of the First Order is that the Rebels usurped their rightful rule and murdered their people and installed a false government.
    there were people in the village who were hostile to them, armed and aggressive.
    they were also using the cover of the Church of the Force to hide their "terrorist" activities (rather common shelter in a conflict).

    no, it doesn't make any of it right, but there's always another point of view, isn't there?

    dunno why you bring up Anakin. i don't excuse any of his behavior. and for the record, i don't excuse Ben's.
    my whole point is that i judge the action not the person.
     
  11. metadude

    metadude Rebelscum

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    Sure, I mean a happy ending following the ten second turn back to the light side. What would you think is necessary, storywise? I mean, what would need to happen that would take more than one movie? Characters usually get happy endings in one movie's running time since most movies aren't trilogies.

    That's a good point. Of course you know what would happen, right? If they did another trilogy with Rey, all of the people hating on Rey now, would then be uploading videos "Episode XI ruined Rey. Worst Star Wars ever!" Ah, no let's not be that way. That wouldn't happen. Humanity will have evolved into a real functional civilization by then, I'm sure.

    But yeah, still, I can see moving on with the new characters.
     
  12. FastestKnight

    FastestKnight Rebel Official

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    The point of TLJ is balance, right? Well, there has to be a balance in everything.

    People should want a good story? Yeah.
    No conditions? I don't think so.

    A story about how the First Order is so evil that they are shown murdering children and their offices are around commiting sexual assaults could be a good story, but it's something we DON'T want to see.

    I know it's not the same as wanting to see Kylo staying evil, but it shows that there ARE conditions.

    The storytellers and the crew do this for a living, it's not like they are doing this entirely for fun, so they need to sell this to an audience. And there are things that the audience don't want to see.

    I can understand how people see that Kylo killed his father, killed, or tried to, his related mentor, didn't care about killing her mother in Crait (no prisoners), was part of the destruction of 5 planets and so on, and don't want this murderer to live happily ever after with Rey.

    Vader did a lot of bad stuff too, sure, but he was being controlled by the Emperor and after redeeming himself, saving his son (and everyone), he died in peace.

    Kylo however did a lot on purpose and the proof is that he killed Snoke AND CONTINUED. And the idea of redemption for Kylo probably implies surviving and staying with Rey, and there are people who don't want that.
     
  13. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order, Then Pie
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    since killing Snoke, he yelled at a bunch of people in childish frustration, attacked Luke, and abused Hux.
    all of his threats at the end are just threats; he doesn't actually manage to carry any of them out (Luke saved him from that).

    he's neither killing younglings, nor marrying Rey here.

    i think if the story is about balance, it'll hopefully end in actual balance.
    which means he will neither be punished nor rewarded.
    his evil and good deeds will balance on the scales and he'll move on in hope ~ because that's the message of Star Wars. : D
     
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  14. NinjaRen

    NinjaRen Supreme Leader

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    Which made him even stronger with the light side.

    He tried to kill him after Luke tried to murder him. "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth."

    He didn't know that his mother was there respectively that she was still alive. (One of my main issues with TLJ btw.)

    I don't need Kylo to be redeemed, but I also have nothing against his redemption. Both outcomes can be good as long as it is told right.

    Kylo is a selfish child. He got what he wanted. And even though he knew it didn't gave him the satisfaction he thought it would give him, he continued because he's stubborn.
     
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  15. FastestKnight

    FastestKnight Rebel Official

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    But he ordered to kill all of the remaining rebels and he intended to kill Luke. I mean, he didn't acomplish this, sure, but it was his intention.

    I was trying to justify those people who don't want redemption for him, but I don't actually share this thought.

    I don't mind seeing him ending on the light side or in balance (if it is well explained), I love the character.

    I wouldn't say that. It definetly destroyed him but I don't see the light in him yet.

    Luke didn't tried to murder anyone, he just thought about it :(

    Oh sh*t! Didn't think about it!

    Agreed.

    Well, it's not like he's angry because he didn't get the toy he wanted for Christmas, we are talking about human and alien lives here xD

    I think he's too crazy to join the light side, but let's see.
     
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  16. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order, Then Pie
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    well that's the problem with this premise, isn't it?
    thank God we're not all convicted on our intentions. XD

    me too. #SaveBenSolo
     
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  17. NinjaRen

    NinjaRen Supreme Leader

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    In the novel of TFA we learned that Kylo found himself weakend and not stronger with the dark side.

    He murdered a lot of people on this Death Star he blew up. :p But Kylo also just thought about killing Leia.

    I think Mace Windu was also too crazy for the light side and he still was a Jedi after all. Hahahaha!
     
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  18. Kylocity

    Kylocity Rebel General

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    True, but it would certainly take longer to convince the audience that our antagonist Kylo deserves a happy ending. The seed for forgiveness has been planted in the first two films, but I think that it would take more than a third film (mainly if we consider that JJ and Terio need to dedicate time to other character arcs too) to offer Kylo a reward, as it has been explained by others above.

    You are comparing apples and pears here. Nobody “expects” ( better word in this case than “wants” I think) SW to dramatically change genre and turn into a Tarantino film... What I meant in my statement is that I’ll be ok with a SW (emphasis in SW as a genre) film that is well told, and I repeat, with no conditions.

    But, yes, if JJ Abrams were to turn Kylo into a cabaret dancer with fishnet tights, I may voice some objections... so you could say you got me there... but hey, what are the chances of that happening, realistically?
     
  19. Rogues1138

    Rogues1138 Jedi General

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    Supreme Leader should be as evil as Vader. He won't kill Hux simply for the advise Snoke gave him; he should swiftly do away with any incompetent First Order Officers that aren't that important to make his wrath be known, but hey that's just the fan boy in me that wants to see something cool. I really don't know what JJ has in store for us. I'm gonna keep my expectations low and hopefully I'll be rewarded with a great film... I'm in the mood to watch TLJ... see you guys in a couple of hours.
     
  20. metadude

    metadude Rebelscum

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    Yeah I suppose that's understandable. Though it makes me wonder about the idea of forgiveness in the scheme of things. I hear people call Vader and Kylo "irredeemable" and it makes me wonder, what people think is the line for forgiveness. Is it something that has to be earned? Is it freely given? When we talk about happy endings - are they earned, are they given? What does a person have to do to earn a happy ending? It's one of those things that if the audience thought, Kylo Ren is too villainous to just get a happy ending, he doesn't deserve one, it would make me look around and ask, "Then do we?" and then everything becomes uncomfortable.

    It's somewhat of a question that was on my mind when I first read the title of the thread. I wondered, how do we measure "evil"? In the question "Will Kylo be as evil as Vader?" how is that measured? My initial thought was, "Is he not already?" Is a guy that kills two people "more evil" than a guy that kills one? One that kills twenty versus one that kills fifty? Is a guy that orders the destruction of a planet of people more evil than the guy who is complicit with the destruction of a planet? Conversely is a guy that saves one life not as "good" as a guy that saves ten?

    This is what happens when I'm asked, is Kylo as evil as Vader? Does Kylo deserve a happy ending?
     
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