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Collider Jedi Council: Will Kylo Ren Become As Evil as Darth Vader in Episode IX?

Discussion in 'SWNN News Feed' started by SWNN Probe, May 12, 2018.

  1. Ammianus Marcellinus

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    Yes :p I literally didn't stop analysing. So let's try again

    There are other options for a man who already might consider himself to be redeemed. It is definitely not going to be the redemption story we've seen before. Perhaps the redemption will not be in Kylo but in a certain specific group of people under his command ;) - which again is partly analysis............

    So my personal opinion.........hmmmmmm..........perhaps I feel that the more Kylo's arc progresses the more inhumane he becomes. And yes, that means he might become more "evil" than Vader ever was. He has an inverted hero's journey and breaks off pieces of his humanity along the way. He's going to try to fulfill Vader's destiny, to break all of it and craft something new (similar to what Luke intended by staying away from the fight). He's going to let it all die. His good fight. At least, that is his mission as I understand it. He believes all his emotional anchors to be gone. Han, Leia, Luke, their memory only a nuisance, a remindee of his former self or perhaps also revealing his true self.

    However, I also find it difficult to believe that a person who is presented as murdering people in cold blood, either with or without regret, is going to be presented as someone who is going to be redeemed like Vader was. This man Kylo, on screen, ordered the execution of pisoners in cold blood. A defining moment for the start of another redemption story which is much more significant than a possible redemption of Kylo. Finn is a revolt against the notion that people committing atrocity are just small pieces in an evil and persecuting impersonal machine (contra "banality of evil"). The people who commit evil who claim that they're "just doing their job". We have Finn identifying with Rey, and succesively with the resistance. What now remains is showing that he is not unique. That his example is indeed the seed/ or spark that will burn the First Order down. So what if the stormtroopers get redeemed instead of Kylo. That would for me be a more powerful and satisfying emotional message in my opinion. It would signify that when we as individuals are forced to do something we don't want to or consider to be evil we always have a choice. That choice might have consequences for the safety of our own persons those we love. But it is our choice.

    Now the writers could of course go anywhere. They could craft a beautiful redememption story for Kylo. They could craft a beautiful story in which he is not redeemed. I also see reasons why someone might think that Kylo might be redeemed. There's enough there. I just hope it won't be too much like ROTJ. I trust they're smart enough to conclude the story in a significant and satisfying manner......


    ....................

    and without f-ing ewoks :p

    nub nub
     
  2. Kylocity

    Kylocity Rebel Commander

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    Yes! (jawa)




    I get where you are coming from, although, interestingly, for me, so far I see exactly the opposite. I see evidence of Kylo’s struggling with carrying out his dehumanising atcs and gaining nothing from them, incapable of living up to his dogma. However, this could all change in the next instalment. I shall wait and see.

    That is letting moral imperatives and judgements put limits to all possibilities in a character development and evolution. Kylo may not be redeemed, but it won’t be because he’s killed people in cold blood.
    Writers enjoy working with this kind of challenges. Looking no further, Lucas himself created a whole trilogy to justify Vader.

    I love this. Yes, please! :)


    That’s a fair request. Parallel but not identical could also work.

     
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  3. Ammianus Marcellinus

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    I understand that. There is enough there in any case. The paradigm here I guess is Kylo killing Han and regretting it ("the deed has split your mind"). Every dehumanizing step he willingly sets on his way to become the successor of the dehumanized idol Darth Vader (or perhaps his wish to supersede Vader) actually reminds him how much of a human he still actually is. It is poetic in a way and at least much more interesting than Vader's turn.

    Perhaps. I think for me the difference here lies in the fact that we never see Vader commit atrocity on screen. It is either behind closed doors or inferred (torture droid enters with Leia, does not actively participate in the torture of Han) or it concerns people we already consider to be the bad guys (lets say that Vader likes a flexible command structure :p). With Kylo the violent act or atrocity is always right there, right on the screen, you see it and he actively takes part in it. He tortures. He commands. He kills. I fear that it will be difficult for people to come to grips with the redemption of a person they have seen so explicitely committing atrocity. The writers might shun away from that option precisely because of that reason. But then again, his "redemption" might be represented quite differently from how we've seen it previously.

    Perhaps it is the same discussion people have had about Anakin. How is it possible for Padmé not to be really angry. To always comfort Anakin and to continue trying to "bring him back" and even to exclaim in the end that "there is still good in him". A lot of people thought this romance was rather difficult to digest and the way the romance was set up made it all very unbelievable for some people. "How does Padmé like such a detestable person?" "We've explicitely seen him murder a village, kill women and children (and dogs :p), he murdered younglings (we didn't see it but Obi Wan did!)".

    There is a reason why a lot of people think Kylo is irredeemable and shouldn't be redeemed. They've seen him murder a village on screen. Torture Poe. Mind rape Rey. Murder childhood favourite Han Solo and heard Kylo explain how he was going to destroy all of it, the girl, the resistance, the jedi, all of it. Now I do not necessarily believe that Kylo shouldn't be redeemed, but I do understand people who do not want him to be redeemed. I am convinced the writers are aware of that. Still, the choice is theirs. Abrams pushed these characters in a certain direction and probably knows well enough where their trajectories are supposed to be going.
     
  4. Kylocity

    Kylocity Rebel Commander

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    I don’t. I think people should want a good story, period. No conditions. And let the storytellers do their job.

    I think the story is heading for redemption and think it would be a good ending, but I don’t “want” it. It’s not my story to tell.
     
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  5. Ammianus Marcellinus

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    Well, there are enough indications to argue that Kylo is heading for redemption. That is a completely legitimate view.

    And I'm glad you are one of those people who can distinguish between their expectations and the actual result.

    People who desperately want stuff only to be disappointed are probably in the "For those who hated the movie" thread :p I sojourned there for a while, trying to find out what makes them tick. Most of it has to do with "this didn't go the way I think" type of reception. Like you, I hope that the writers are completely free in writing their material and do not concern themselves too much (if, better, not at all) with what fans want or other forms of activism. They of course need to take into account their audience, but I just hope....not too much :p

    If you were to describe what for you would be the most satisfying ending for Kylo, what would that be? You said you think Kylo is up for redemption. How would that work in IX, in your opinion?
     
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  6. Kylocity

    Kylocity Rebel Commander

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    I’m an idealist. I’d love to see Kylo reformed. But for that, something needs to happen that makes him reconsider his bad choices and have a change of heart. Something connected to his childhood I would imagine.
    I do feel that one film only will not be long enough to give Kylo a happy ending, so I predict that at the end of 9 he, heartbroken at the realisation that Rey does not return his feelings for her, will have a failed attempt of suicidal self sacrifice that will end up with him leaving the galaxy in a self-imposed exile.

    We will have to wait for another future trilogy to see a fully reformed Kylo. Someone will try to find him, like Rey went to seek Luke. This will be the opportunity he needs to reconnect with Rey and have a love story... an even a child :)
     
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