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SPECULATION Darth Rey?

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker' started by Xeven, Oct 4, 2018.

  1. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    Anakin had to turn dark to become Vader. And it was part of a narrative fall. He was manipulated by Palpatine.
    Rey doesn't have to turn. There's no one left to manipulate her. She's done with Kylo. She ain't falling for his blast anymore.
    If she was going to turn it would have been in TLJ. She didn't.

    Again, Rey turning dark provides nothing to the story other than a twist. She was faced with turning when she attacked Luke. She was faced with turning when Kylo tried on the Supremacy. She didn't. Going back on that now is just strictly shock value.

    She chose to be good because it was the right thing to do.
    She has no noble calling of birthright. She is not born into the war. She was pulled in. The force chose her. Her turning dark adds nothing to that.
     
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  2. Xeven

    Xeven Rebel Official

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    Ok so what would you have happen next?
     
  3. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    Leia actually be Snoke.
    TWIST!
     
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  4. Sparafucile

    Sparafucile Guest

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    It could add to canon, that the darkside doesn't need an agent to turn lightsiders. The seduction is in the power it promises. As people have often stated Rey is pretty naïve. Her training seems shorter and less complete, by a less competent master than Luke with Yoda. It's not a stretch to see her reach to its darkness and lose herself in the power it grants her, to give her the power to right wrongs, in her point of view.

    There are a ton of reasons why not to go there for LFL, chief among them keeping her as a role model for girls, but beyond some head canon people have build around the series, I don't think it's impossible for LFL to do this. I think a big part depends on their plans for the saga. If they don't intend to continue with Rey and Kylo ect... after IX, then I think it's less likely she turns.

    I haven't heard anyone say it has to happen, merely more a question to see how it could happen, or that it might happen. I acknowledge the possibility even if I think it's unlikely. I suppose some could refute it, just as some fans refute Luke's change for VI to TLJ, but just as in those arguments, these are not our characters, they can take them on whatever journey they chose to if they so chose. You might not like the direction, but LFL Disney doesn't have to care about what you like, they're wanting to make what works best for the franchise, in their opinion.
     
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  5. p03

    p03 Human/Cyborg Relations

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    She's more likely to die than turn evil. That is not to say she can't. Would it be a good idea? Am on the fence with that one.
     
    #45 p03, Oct 15, 2018
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  6. Mortis

    Mortis Rebel Official

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    I think it is mentioned she has the spirit of a true Jedi. So that would be like Obi Wan turning dark.
     
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  7. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    But that would be fairly weak since the Force is, to this point, neutral. It's a balance of life. "Darkness rises and light to meet it." The Force chose a light side vessel to balance Kylo Ren's darkness after he went off the deep end.

    Rey is naive but she's a good person. That's who her character is. She is tempted but never strays. The same way Luke was always tempted for different reasons. But he was a good person. And never gave in. Stopped himself just short.

    It's not about her being a role model for girls. That's a lazy "theory" thrown around to explain away why the mean girl who invaded Star Wars should turn evil but won't. She won't turn evil for the same reason Luke turning evil in the OT was shot down. It's a bad story idea. It's something from the EU or a Zack Snyder film. If Rey turning evil would make sense for a good story, it would have happened in TLJ. It wouldn't be off the table.

    The ST has a theme of unimportant people rising up to do the right thing even when faced with an easier out, her turning would squash all of that and leave the ST without a theme. Rey is unimportant but was chosen by the force to bring balance. She was tempted with easy outs along the way to give her exactly what she needed. She rebuked all of them and ultimately chose to do the right thing.

    It's not really the same as Luke changing in a 30 year gap. Luke also never went dark side. He cut himself off from the force. Rey going evil after the events of TLJ would be like Luke changing his mind during the Han rescue, letting Jabba capture Leia, Lando, Chewie and the droids then joining his father.
     
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  8. Porgtastic

    Porgtastic Rebel Trooper

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    Kylo Ren and Rey Going along the same route as the Revan and Bastilla storyline?
     
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  9. Sparafucile

    Sparafucile Guest

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    Fair enough, however I would argue themes could change until after the trilogy is over.

    If you haven't noticed, I haven't ventured into the discussion of theme for the ST. I haven't criticized it or praised it. I haven't because until the trilogy is over, we don't have a full picture. So basically, the theme can be anything they want it to be. Some fans find it fun to guess or predict or anticipate where the writers are taking it, and that's all well and good, but I think any decent writer can take it wherever they want and the final analysis of the theme will be the one that stands. Most other theory afterwards will be forgotten, some may be mocked, others missed, but most will collect dust and won't have much of an impact on future films.

    I also, nor has anyone else as far as I know, said that Rey "should" turn evil. We're only guessing at a possibility, what that might look like on film. What that would mean for the story ect... considering implications. Why we're doing this is no more nefarious as people guessing at the theme of the ST. Different fans find different mental activities around the series fun.

    Also for Rey, I would argue "good person" is not so much a character trait, it's something that's situational and could easily be manipulated, especially with her being naïve and having had the weakest training than any other Jedi we've seen so far in the SW universe. Many biographies of people who were good and turned later on in life for various reasons. Or good people doing questionable things. In the SW universe, we have an example of a messiah type who turned into Vader, so I wouldn't think that's a valid argument to protect Rey from a similar fate, especially if as most of us guess, there will be a time skip between TLJ and IX. It can be argued that it would be repetitive, but the counter could be that it need not be, because they can make her more conflicted than Vader or change that aspect of the story in many different ways.

    As for her being a role model for girls, I wouldn't call it a lazy theory, it is meta though, as in not built into the actual story, instead rather fans trying to guess at the intentions of Disney, LFL, KK, JJ and the writing team. As meta, if their goal is to create a strong female role model for girls within the SW universe, then I don't think that makes the theory invalid or lazy, whether or not that is their goal could however be argued. I don't find that possibility as one that lessens Rey in any way, since it stands to some reasons since we have so many male heroes. It would however make a distinction between them as when GL created Luke, I doubt he was thinking "I want to make a strong male character". I don't think gender or sexuality factored in, while an argument could be made that it isn't the case for Rey. Furthermore, if Rey turning evil is a rehash of Anakin's story, then an argument could be made her staying good could be a rehash of the OT and Luke.The fact that as fans we're very much split on whether this story was pre-written or if it only had some vague goals that each episode had to meet, or whether it was a relay between directors and only had a final goal, among others, shows that there are other examples to fans thinking in a way that is meta. I think it's merely fans acknowledging that these are not historical stories, but fully fantasy stories that could go anywhere. The writers and directors are not constrained by any facts, like say a story of Julius Caesar would be.

    As for the Force being neutral, sure, but it doesn't merely control your actions, it obeys your commands as well. It does not supersede someone's will, at least we've never had an example of that. A person could still make mistakes or be flat out wrong. When you say Rey "never" strays, I say never say never. We haven't seen her stray in about a glimpse of a month. It could merely be she's on a hot streak. We don't know much about her life before, and even if she were mostly flawless (and many fans would argue she did make mistakes in TLJ, which could prove to be forshawing of things to come) on Jakku that doesn't mean with the complications of life and added pressure and responsibility, she can't screw up and make mistakes or bad decisions moving forward. If some could argue we've only had a few glimpses of Luke as an argument to Luke's change in TLJ, that argument is even more valid for Rey at this point.

    As for the ST's theme that you've written, I could argue that's your guess (based on what we have so far). I could argue that Rey being chosen by the force doesn't fit that theory, even if she isn't a chosen one like Anakin, and part of a larger change in the universe where many people have been chosen by the force, she is still chosen by the force. That alone makes her not a nobody. Finn is the only example of a ST who breaks the brainwashing, that gives him a distinction. I could also argue Poe isn't average or normal, as his piloting skills are far superior to average. I wouldn't bat an eye if they came out and said he has the force, as it could be an explanation as to his skill. One could argue Rose is normal, but her clarity of mind, seeing through corruption, could be seen as fantastic in it's own way, it too can even have roots in the force. Technically, any above average skill or strong character trait could be Force induced to some extent, especially since now the Force could be within anyone. An argument can even be made that talent is rooted in the Force. I'm not saying you're wrong, only that it's malleable. You might be right, or even correct right now, and they can decide to change it later on, whether it be in IX or in X, XI ect... They've left the Force mysterious enough that they can turn it on our heads at their whim, if they feel it adds to the story, or whatever motivation they have for the change (making more saga films because they rake in more money then the stories, as an example).

    Your final example for Luke doesn't hold water, mostly because GL had no immediate plans to continue the story (he had some ideas, but he felt the technology wasn't there and wasn't sure if he could ever do it, so closing the story instead of having it open ended made more sense for him, again, meta). Disney wants to keep this money ball rolling, they have the resources to do it and by all accounts I don't see them slamming on any breaks. Thus, Rey going dark isn't an end to the story if they don't want it to be, which means they can make a grander theme for the next saga, that can theoretically last another 3 or 6 or more films. For all GL knew or thought, we'd never see Luke again. Having him end off evil would have been interesting, but without being able to remedy that in the near future, he may have faced some backlash. It certainly would have been a different story.

    I think if Rey would be to turn dark, then the ST would be the PT to the OT, just in reverse order. We'd be getting "Vader's" story chronologically, so to speak. It could still have vast differences, and could last much longer with many more movies to take us on twists and turns. For example, Rey could be more aptly compared to Mara Jade if they choose. Maybe that's not what you want, and that's fine, or maybe you think it would suffer in quality, and maybe you're right, but that's an opinion without seeing it, and even when or if you did, it would still only be an opinion. Maybe some other people would love to see that story, even if now they don't think they would.
     
    #49 Sparafucile, Oct 16, 2018
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  10. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    I address it as an issue with story/theme/narrative because it is just that. And I think if more people thought about films in this context you see fewer people feeling swerved or upset by decisions made in movies like TLJ. So when people build this idea of how "cool" it would be, I want to present why it's actually a weaker story idea than the one presented. It's not about people suggesting it should/will happen. But trying to get people to think about and address things like themes.

    You can't say good person isn't a character trait then use it to describe the traits of people described as "good people".

    Their goal is to create strong relatable characters who can be either male or female. Or wookie. Rey happens to be a female. It's not WHY she can't turn dark. She won't turn dark for the same reason Luke didn't in the OT (and even in the ST) and for the same reason Anakin DID turn dark. Rey/Luke act selflessly (to a fault at times) Anakin was selfish.

    Lucas had a bajillion ideas for the saga from the start and anyone can find any number of sources to answer their own theories about what Lucas would have done. I could easily point out that Lucas wanted Luke to put on Vader's mask and say "Now I am Vader" at the end of ROTJ. See? He's never had a legitimate concrete plan. It's been nebulous at best. And it's better for it. The PT was rigid with things that HAD to happen and they suffered for it.

    If Rey were going to turn it should have been in TLJ. The saga is broken into trilogies. Each trilogy has a resolution. Anakin becomes Vader and the Republic is lost. Luke confronts Vader and the Empire is lost. If Rey goes dark in 9, it offers no resolution only set up for something else. That's a bad way to end a trilogy. It becomes a middle movie. That's bad story telling.
     
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  11. Dra---

    Dra--- Rebelscum

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    Darth Rey could have been interesting, but it just hasn't been sufficiently developed yet. But that's just another way of saying the ST has been poorly planned. It's not really about anything. Lots of things haven't been sufficiently developed.

    I used to be an anti-GL guy, but now I see that LFL, so far at least, hasn't been able to rise to his storytelling level.
     
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  12. Mortis

    Mortis Rebel Official

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    How can you be Anti George Lucas and be a Star Wars fans. That is pretty extreme. I did not care for AOTC dialogue but I will never ever consider myself "Anti George" seems crazy. Guy made the universe and you seem to have a problem with anybody currently making Star Wars movies that do not make line up exactly with what you want. I think at some point you just become Anti Star Wars.
     
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  13. Sparafucile

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    To answer your second sentence, I say hold on. I thought people's dislike was due to fan theories and head canon they couldn't be pried away from? The movie not meeting their preconcived ides of who Luke is ect ect... Not saying this was yours, but I remember seeing that theory bandied about quite a bit. So much so that I'm pretty convinced many lovers still think it probably is at least part of the issue. I think allowing for the possibility of Rey going dark is the opposite of that, and that you seem to have a harder line, or stronger head canon on how things "should" go. As for addressing themes, I don't think one can really do that with much accuracy without the whole of the trilogy. I didn't know where they OT was going after ESB, I think it would be unfair to put that expectation on IX now.

    A trait such as good or bad is malleable. Han for example was self absorbed in ANH, he still was in ESB, but less so. By the time RotJ comes around, well, his screen time and the issues at hand had him have to fit into reformed. Important to note, we haven't seen Rey with a notable time skip, so I'll be curious to see how they "change" her to show growth in that time.

    Wookies are male and female as well. Heck, even droids seem to be now.

    As for Rey not turning dark, you may be right, I never denied that possibility, and even admit it's likely. I'm merely suggested it's possible that good people do bad things. That maybe they don't want Rey's path to so closely mimic that of Luke's. Maybe Rey's will be a mix of both Luke's and Anakin's, which would follow the idea of a theme that in the PT dark wins, in the OT light wins, in the ST we get some sort of compromise. So in the PT the hero, Anakin, goes dark, in the OT the hero, Luke, is a beacon of light and thus in the ST Rey goes somewhat shady (and her light has been so bright, they may have to overcompensate at this point), , which would require her to "fail" in some significant way. Maybe Disney requires this trilogy to be more of a launching pad for Rey and her overall journey, while at the same time finalizing the Skywalker saga. I could certainly be wrong, and I'm not even suggesting it's likely, just pointing out and keeping my mind open to the possibility, not because I think it's cool, or cooler, but for the sake of not closing my mind to different ideas and possibilities.

    GL had a lot of ideas, but he didn't seem to feel technology in film could produce what his imagination created in his mind. He didn't think his vision could be realized. When it did, we got the PT, mostly because time had run out to continue the story where he had left it off after RotJ. No one suggests that Lucas had a concrete plan, what I do hear a lot of is that Lucas had a lot of time to work on his script, especially the first one, and after seeing how well that first one succeeded, I think he was a little more open to have people tinker with his ideas moving forward.

    I think with Disney at the helm, it's possible (I'd even say likely) they won't wrap things up so neatly as previous trilogies. I think they'll make an open ending and I think it will be deliberate, designed to keep people interested to see what comes next. I could be wrong, but I'm hedging my bets that I'm not. Disney does not just want to break even with SW. Now, I'm not married to the idea that it has to be Rey as the next villain, but it would certainly feel more organic if it's someone that we're emotionally invested in. It could be Kylo, it could be a KoR, not a fan of this, but maybe even Snoke. I don't know who, truth be told, but I'd wager it will be someone, mostly because saga films make more money on average then side stories. Entirely different saga films are an unknown at this point, so to me it makes sense they keep this saga going. Maybe not story sense, but that's debatable until we see how they realize the story, but it makes perfect business sense. Stories do better with a good antagonize and some built in drama, unanswered questions. So for the resolution you mention, the Skywalker saga ends, but to address Disney's need to keep making money, they keep Rey's story open to increase speculation and drive interest into the continuation. I'm open to being wrong, I'm just not closing the door to the possibility.
     
    #53 Sparafucile, Oct 16, 2018
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  14. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    It's not about me having a harder time accepting it as "possible canon" I have a hard time accepting it as good story telling. I dabbled in the EU. I can accept many, bizarre things as "possible canon". It would take an extraordinary amount of time to make Darth Rey work within one movie whilst also finishing every other story that needs an ending. That's my issue with it. You can make fairly educated guesses that a movie franchised aimed at kids isn't going to make it's big hero ultimately dark in the "finale" of Star Wars. If people thought Finn/Rose/Poe were bad in TLJ, imagine if they have even LESS to do because we have to get to Darth Rey in a creative fashion. The themes remain the same in all 3 OT films. Friends/Family/Love conquers Hate/Evil.

    I agree with what you are saying, which is why I took exception to the line:
    Being a good person in fact a character trait. Best example is Game of Thrones. The Starks are good people. It is the defining trait of House Stark. I never implied it was a good or bad trait, to be a good person, but just that it is a character trait.

    Yes wookies can, but that's not the point.

    I never argued against good people do bad things. They always do bad things...like Luke being ever so briefly tempted to end Ben Solo before he became Kylo Ren...and we see how fans took that....Rey is Luke's last student. If she goes dark and thus ends the saga...Luke's lasting legacy is failure. Or she could not go dark and Luke's lasting legacy is hope, rebirthing the rightful Jedi....which one sounds more Star Wars-y?

    Lucas indeed had a ton of plans but the PT by nature is rigid. Obi-Wan cannot die. Anakin cannot die. Padme has to die. Yoda cannot die. Anakin must become Vader. It's the downfall of all prequels. The best ones just figure out how to make that a compelling story. That's what I mean by rigid. The OT was indeed made up mostly on the fly.

    Disney seems pretty adament about moving forward. New trilogies. New stories. We may revisit this little slice of the GFFA eventually. But based on what we know and how the other two ended, it's likely to be a fairly resolute ending. Each trilogy can be 100% viewed as a trilogy. Using this trilogy to launch a separate trilogy would be a monumentally bad business idea especially if it IS NOT going to include the Skywalkers because people will 100% expect them.
     
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  15. Dra---

    Dra--- Rebelscum

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    What's extreme is to act like George is some kind of untouchable, unflawed master immune to criticism. Even when I was a critic of the PT, I still respected him, even if I was frustrated by him.

    This is the same kind of rigid attitude that can't accept any criticism of the ST, or Rian Johnson.

    Please don't leap to conclusions when someone says something like "anti-GL." It simply means I was a critic. I didn't burn my SW films in some sort of tantrum. ;)

    But of course, there are people who aren't true critics but haters, which you're assuming are the same thing. And I am not a hater (although I admit TLJ has made me quite frustrated in the past, even mad).
     
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  16. Sparafucile

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    I think on many things we mostly agree, but we're arguing over the unknown. Even in that sense, I mostly I agree with you, Rey is unlikely to go dark. I find it curious that SW hasn't backtracked on some of the more reasonable controversy around TLJ, and my reasonable mind tells me that may be because we're in for some more controversy to end this saga. Maybe they plan on doing things differently, and we don't get neatly wrapped up stories and trilogies anymore. They didn't play it safe with TLJ on many fronts, maybe the planning (however much or little) requires some other major changes to their story telling. So maybe they stick to their guns now because if fans can't come to accept TLJ, they'll never accept IX anyways. They do seem adamant to move forward. They do want to make new trilogies and we're most likely to revisit this slice of the GFFA sooner rather than later. The actors are young, it's THE saga, the one that undeniably works. The PT ending only works and feels wrapped up because of the existence of the OT. I think Disney may be flirting with creating a PT type story without, as you say, the PT's weakest element, the knowing people can't die or live.

    I'm okay with being proven wrong.

    Understand, I really wish you're right. Not being a very big fan of the ST, I hope the trilogy ends and we don't revisit this time, or continue it. I hope all the threads are tied in a bow and we explore past or future with entirely different trilogies. I just don't think Disney will take that chance from a business perspective. In a way I'm preparing myself for that possibility, and maybe even likelihood. I don't think Disney intends to make the same mistake GL did by letting their actors age out for the telling of the next saga. Even with the ST being divisive, they still have momentum with those that love it. If saga films every 2 or 3 years garners over a billion dollars each release, who in their right minds lets that end? I really doubt Disney does. Especially now knowing that their stories can and did fail, and with new trilogies being an unknown quantity.

    As for Rey, she doesn't have to go all out bad, but merely a hint that all is not right with her. Giving fans an additional reason to go watch the next 3. Maybe she has to kill Kylo, something akin to assisted suicide, and good hearted Rey struggles with the morality of it. I'm not saying this is it, but I'm merely suggesting it as one of a plethora of ideas they can go with. Maybe the Republic are the very ones that force her to make this "bad" decision. Maybe Kylo is okay with it, resolute to his fate, but she's not. With the bits of darkness we've seen in her in both TFA and TLJ, this could be that springboard. Kylo dies, ending the Skywalkers, and launching Rey into her own trilogy. Maybe at the end of IX, we get a Rey that has lost that easy smile, so common to her character, but is now in a position of power with a resentment for the act and the authority that made her have to do such act. Maybe Kylo turns back to good because of Luke's ghost. I'm just saying it's possible to tell that story without bogging it down. To wrap it in seamlessly so that her friends have opposing opinions on what she "should" do. No, I don't expect to see IX open with Rey dressed in black with a mask on and a red lightsaber, or even see her that way half way through. I don't think anyone is suggesting that. I think however it's possible to set things up so that in X, with a time skip, that may be a possibility.
     
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  17. Mortis

    Mortis Rebel Official

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    Then you are not anti George. If you are simply a critic then that is all you have to say but saying you are "anti" something usually places you in the hater category. If that is the case I would refrain from leading off with anti.
     
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