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Defying The Dark Side: Thoughts, Philosophy and Techniques

Discussion in 'General Movie Discussion' started by Moral Hazard, Sep 24, 2016.

  1. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    i don't have time to do justice to a response here, but again, i would suggest that how we see balance in the Force is perceptual.

    the Jedi "curing" the Sith is something that the people do, it's not a fuzzy-fuzzy feeling that permeates the universe (if it was, then all those defeated Imperials shouldn't be rising again). your own description of the unique responsibility of the Jedi pretty much sums up what i'm saying (so i think we really actually agree, but we perceive things differently). the analogy with religion continues to be appropriate here. religions need professors--priests, shamans, keeper of wisdom, etc., to guide the faithful and to protect the sanctity of the faith. that's what Jedi are/do. the Force itself is merely the presence of energy which can be tapped.

    like @Moral Hazard said, people who tap into that energy are going to use it and perceive it in their own ways.
    but balance is not one extreme or the other. true balance is moderation always. because human nature is imperfect always.

    without derailing this (hopefully), there's been a lot of chitter about what Luke would or wouldn't do. i think he's a Jedi and he's committed himself to the Force (that would appear to be his nature and goal by the end of ROTJ). but he also recognizes strength in his attachments (which is why, though he is solitary at the end of the film, he allows Leia to draw him back to the celebration).

    Luke has a responsibility as the last Jedi and i believe he honors it. but i also believe his experience has taught him that rigidity is no way to ultimately serve the Force. he may adhere to the old ways himself to make himself more a perfect teacher, but what he teaches may be something much less stringent. and either he learned that before he took on Ben (and lost Ben as a result--and so is rethinking his choices), or he's learning it now precisely because he lost Ben for being too rigid.

    could go either way, but i still sense that the ST is searching for its own balance through this narrative.
     
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  2. Fuzzball

    Fuzzball Force Sensitive

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    What about Anakin? Was he not the product of the force creating life?
     
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  3. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi General

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    I believe that the Sith created Anakin. And I think when Lucas gave it serious thought he came to this conclusion as well.
    The Force creation thing doesn't work for me as there would be countless chosen ones born every time the Force went out of balance.
     
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  4. Moral Hazard

    Moral Hazard Force Sensitive

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    There's truth in this - especially if we view the Jedi and Sith etc. as fans of the Force!
    This is an interesting interpretation. Filoni did say all character's are "Force intuitive" whether they are aware or not.

    Rhetorical questions...
    • Are there temporal geo-locational aspects to this "will" theory of yours or is this collective consciousness hypothesis a real-time galaxy-wide accounting?
    • Would a vergence around a Force tree or say a galactic system the FO has purged of resistance support and devoid of light side sympathising life-forms affect this collective "will"?
    • Could the subsequent available collective consciousness become weighted toward the light or dark and affect those who surrender to this "will" of the Force?
    • Do the characteristics of the Force itself ("awakening" implies "slumbering" and perhaps ebbs, flows, taints, draining, etc.) impact and re-effect the lifeforms that "breathe it, make it grow"?
    The ideas of a "will" or "destiny" outside that of the individual's agency don't really resonate with my current head-canon although I can entertain an abstract collective corporeal effect like your ↑ theory.

    I (currently?) like to interpret the "partially controls your actions" from our favourite cryptic, old, manipulative truth-twister as "informing" our actions - more of a stimulus that a sentient being has a reaction to than making the jump from power/agency to intention.

    Either way I just hear Obi-Wan fallible choice of words and hey, I'm not one to let objective meanings get in the way of hijacking a word for my own purposes! ;)
     
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  5. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi General

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    I know you said rhetorical, but anyway...!

    I'd say yes. I think there is balance in regards to the entire galaxy and likely balance on smaller scales.
    When the sums of these balances add up in an (this is terribly worded!) unbalanced way overall then this is what likely = Dark Side galactic domination.
    But of course localised imbalances are problems as well that must be sorted out by the Jedi.

    I think this goes beyond my capabilities to answer but to take a stab at it, I think that the general idea is that the Dark Side impacts negatively on all life. And yes, I also refer to non-sentient life here. As we see when the Dark Side is prominent, it brings destruction. It's noticeable in TPM on a literal level where we see the TF taking down trees and destroying everything in their wake. We are also perhaps being shown this with Jakku - a once living planet turned to dust. And where ever there is the dark side there is greed to the level where the concerns of the environment and others are ignored. Therefore, those who are living under this cloud as well as the non-sentient life will have it's own will to be free of this dark cloud. And so the collective consciousness of all life speaks this will to those that will listen. So like I say, I think this works on both small scales and galactic scales.

    I don't think it ever weighs towards the Dark Side as this goes against the idea of happiness, freedom and survival. The Dark Side is destructive and is like a cancer. The light side on the other hand represents life itself, freedom and harmony. All natural life gravitates towards the light. The Dark Side is the destructive force that, although coming from a natural place as well, when dominant is purely destructive. Of course to those that benefit (though they are really heading to their own destruction) they seek to empower this darkness and ignore or simply cannot here the will of this collective consciousness.

    Interesting question. My view is that the "dormant nature" the Force found itself in was down to two reasons:
    a) No one has been using the Force in any profound ways other than Ren and Snoke. It appears that Luke hasn't been using the Force for some time (as it is Rey's use of it that causes the awakening).
    b) There has been relative peace/balance for long time. Of course this seems to have changed in the 6 years prior to TFA.

    But I think this really is about the two sides of the force - the living force and cosmic force.
    The Force itself always exists and is there if people listen to it and feel it and use it.
    Life is always creating it, making it grow. And likewise, it is always there (as Maz says to Rey) connecting all living things.
    It's just one side of the Force (I believe the official idea is that it is the living Force) has been largely neglected by Force users for some time and thus when Rey taps into it , the awakening happens.

    Yeah, I don't think it actively controls people like a puppet. You have to open yourself up to it. But what Kenobi was essentially saying there for me was what Qui Gon told Anakin before the Podrace - "Use your instincts". That is for me the Force giving the Jedi a helping hand but it does require them to, as I say, let it in.

    I don't buy the idea of fate at all. But I think destiny is different. You can't change fate which is a silly notion to me. But you can choose your destiny.
    I think Star Wars suggests people are born with a certain destiny. It might not be specific but I think it presents a journey for people to go on and it is up to them whether they follow it or not. But really, the choices they make is about their own midnset - are they acting out of greed or compassion?
    If greed, then they are ignoring the will of the Force/ignoring what is right for the whole and are in fact adding to the imbalance by thinking of the self.
     
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  6. Maximus

    Maximus Reel 2 Dialogue 2

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    awesome posts peeps.. i've completely lost track of time today reading this thread lol.

    I've always thought of the force as 2 distinct sides in terms of balance and Will. Do we really think that the force as a whole wants light sided users only? i don't think so.

    What is a dark side trainee taught by his master? are they only shown how to make their lightning power work over greater distances? or are they also taught to listen to the Will of the force, but from a different perspective?

    I think what i'm getting at is this.. does the dark side of the force actively help dark side users like it seems to on the light side?

    if your of the opinion like me that the dark side of the force DOES help dark side force users.. then it muddies the idea of balance further.

    is balance only how the individual perceives it?
    it is canon that Anakin brought balance to the force... but perhaps that only means that it was balanced to the perception of light sided users?

    i'm firmly in that camp bro.

    one of the biggest lessons Luke learned from Kenobi..
    "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view"
     
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  7. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi General

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    Using mobile so apologies for mass quoting!

    The dark side does indeed speak its will but this is more about the inner greed of an individual rather than what the collective consciousness of the galaxy wants.
     
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  8. CTrent29

    CTrent29 Rebel Official

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    Technically, Obi-Wan is right. However, I have a deep suspicion that he used this as an excuse for his lies and evasions.



    Qui-Gon Jinn never used the phrase, "Dark Side of the Force". Why is it that everyone believe that the Force can be divided so easily into labels?
     
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  9. Moral Hazard

    Moral Hazard Force Sensitive

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    Good question. We're probably mostly debating the semantics of Jedi fundamentalism. They do control the majority of the cinematic Force narrative and we receive most of our Force ideology through the perspective of their journeys and their proselytizing potential apprentices. :eek:

    "First comes the day
    Then comes the night.
    After the darkness
    Shines through the light.
    The difference, they say,
    Is only made right
    By the resolving of gray
    Through refined Jedi sight.
    "

    ―Journal of the Whills, 7:477[src]

    I'm not sure this kind of nonsense actually means anything outside of stoking Jedi arrogance. Aren't the night and the day both absolutely necessary and can't everyone - Jedi or not - "resolve gray" through their own investigation?

    I did the movie script search and before TFA's release it's only ever Jedi Knights that mention the word "balance" in relation to the Force. The majority of references convieniently infer it is the Jedi Knights that help bring about balance - either by their destroying their opposition completely (just like the Sith are wont to do) or vastly outnumbering them (and that doesn't always help).

    The Clone Wars' Moritis arc seems to be one of the few Jedi journeys I know that implies that a diversity of perspectives are required to maintain "balance". And who knows, for all intents and purposes that experience could just have been some representation of a Cosmic Force manifestation, reflected in the Living Force being manipulated through the Midi-chlorian conduit present along with the collective consciousness of the Jedi who were there ... my head hurts. :confused:
    In TFA LST said "without the Jedi , there can be no balance in the Force" (oh, the vanity) and that can still be interpreted multiple ways like you mention! I wonder if the non-Force-sensitives in Church of The Force vary their Force ideology in any meaningful way from the Jedi Order?

    [Edit] I just found a good artilce on the nature of The Force over at MSW - You Seek Knowledge: The Structure of the Force and How its Layers Work. Hopefully, with the Canitna members help and these kind of articles, I may finally get my head around the phenomena vs the dogma!
     
    #49 Moral Hazard, Oct 1, 2016
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2016
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  10. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi General

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    I'm not so sure this is arrogance on behalf of the Jedi.
    I think what this is about is that there will always be Dark Siders (and without the Jedi this will certainly be the case).
    These people, who use the Dark Side for greedy purposes, will cause massive destruction. They will spread evil everywhere if left to their own devices.
    That's what happens with the Dark Side - once you join it you are forever seeking more power, causes more and more destruction along the way.
    The Jedi, with their knowledge and selfless belief system are the only means of stopping these Dark Siders. They're the only ones who can match them and defeat them. Sure, they can get help - and as we see with the Rebellion, this help was necessary. But at the heart of it is the Jedi defeating those that wield the Dark Side.

    As for that quote from The Journal of the Whills, my interpretation of that is that there will indeed always be good and evil but that to ensure this remains balanced and the harmony isn't destroyed, it requires the Jedi to listen to the will of the Force, understand what needs to be done (whether that be destroying Sith or whatever) and then having the power to do it.

    Again, I think when you look at the will of the Force as the desires of the collective consciousness of the galaxy (a kind of galactic Gaia hypothesis) you can see why the will is all about being aligned with the light side (compassion for all) and fighting against the Dark Side (self centred greed). It's not saying the Dark Side shouldn't exist or could be purged utterly but rather it needs to be kept in check. It can't be allowed to take over because that bring galactic despair, oppression and destruction.
     
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  11. Moral Hazard

    Moral Hazard Force Sensitive

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    I was going to say I have to disagree with this claim the Jedi "are the only means" but as I read on I realised...

    You have done that yourself2.gif
    OB giggle.gif

    Anyway cheekiness aside, I think I get your point and it seems to make sense in the time and place we are shown in the cinematice universe. I guess I'm coming from a more macro picture.

    The SW galaxy is large, old, and diverse. To claim the Jedi - one specific philosophical warrior order - are necessary for there to be balance in the Force implies that there was never any balance in the Force before the Jedi or in any time after, and conveniently discounts all other Light Side adherents, warriors and practitioners who are not Jedi. This is precisely the "final solution" hubris I alluded to above. Only a Sith deals in absolutes!
    But we should remember the Jedi Order do not have a monopoly on compassion, or on the will and power to fight against the Dark Side.

    If
    the Force reflects the desires of the collective consciousness of the galaxy then as long as life-forms exist that desire peace, symbiosis and compassion, there will The Living Force available for those with the desire to use it for knowledge and defense - Jedi or not.
     
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  12. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi General

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    Oh ok I see where you're coming from. I guess what I'm doing is using "Jedi" as a genetic term to encompass all those who have served the will of the force past and present. But in pragmatic terms, the Jedi are literally the ones with the greatest knowledge of the Force and most apt in maintaining balance.

    But sure, every person can help maintain the balance in their own way. But without someone like the Jedi fighting against those who wield the dark side, this becomes a losing battle.

    This links into the new trilogy for me though as I think the way they could go is on suggesting that things weren't properly resolved in rotj. The bad guys got beat but their shadow remained. The Empire became the FO. The Sith became the KoR. Vader's evil legacy lived on. Luke ended that dark period but it will be up to Rey to purge what Vader did forever - by helping the FO and Ren turn to the light.
     
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  13. CTrent29

    CTrent29 Rebel Official

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    After reading this, I truly wish that George Lucas had never sold the franchise to Disney.

    I'm sorry but good and evil will always exist within the same universe. Getting rid of one in order for the other to dominate is just simply unnatural. I wish I could find a fictional story that is willing to accept this.




    I HAD corrected myself and stated that he did come very close breaking his moral compass. Very close. I had also stated that Palpatine's own arrogance and big mouth prevented Luke from crossing the line. Luke is no more high and mighty when it comes to morality than anyone else. Just because Luke had managed to prevent himself from giving in to evil once, does not mean that he is forever the embodiment of goodness. The potential to give in to evil will exist within Luke until he dies - or even perhaps even beyond. The same goes for the "precious" Rey, who has become the saga's new Mary Sue. And the same goes for all of the other characters . . . and even all sentient beings - including we humans - in the real world.

    This is why I had never bought fandom's belief that there was something pre-ordained within Anakin that made him give in to evil. I don't believe that he had any psychological hang-ups that led him to evil. Well yes, he probably did . . . LIKE EVERYONE ELSE. Because everyone had the potential to give in to evil, or commit a monstrous act, or simply convey his or her negative traits on a regular basis.

    Nor do I see the need to compartmentalize the Force. The Force is just . . . the Force. I really don't see the need to use terms like "the Dark Side" or "the Light Side". Some people utilize it for the right people and some don't. But I find it hard to believe that the Force itself has to be divided and labeled, as if it were some kind of organization.
     
    #53 CTrent29, Oct 3, 2016
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2016
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  14. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi General

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    That's not what I'm suggesting though.
    The point is not that there won't always be good and evil. But rather the element that has unbalanced this in favour of the Dark Side for so long (The Sith/Empire/ Palpatine/Vader - which became the FO and Snoke and Ren etc) will be destroyed. That isn't to say that there won't ever be another challenge for the Jedi to face. And it's certainly not about purging the galaxy of darkness. People will always feel hatred, anger and greed. But it is about this very strong dark force that allows evil to take over.


    True to a point, but when it comes to mythology and the hero's journey, is there any point in going over old ground?
    Rey certainly though will have conflict that could turn her to the Dark Side.

    Indeed. He chose to do what he did. We can find reasons why and excuses here and there - but it comes down to comes battle between greed and compassion.

    The Force itself is made up from all living things, remember - so the energy that these beings create will either be positive or negative. Dark or light. Stemming from love or hate etc
     
  15. CTrent29

    CTrent29 Rebel Official

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    The same thing happened with the Jedi before the outbreak of the Clone Wars. And judging on how the Jedi was like around that time, this tilt of the balance toward their direction didn't help them one bit in the end.



    Why not? So that you can have your "happily ever after"?
     
  16. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi General

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    Well, generally everything was good in the galaxy for a thousand years. Then when the Sith plan started to move along a bit the imbalance really started.
    When the Dark Side grows, the Jedi become clouded and their ability to use the Force is diminished. They were fighting a losing battle and I guess that is the point.
    But had Anakin done what he should've done then it would've been ok in the end.


    I'm not sure what you mean. I am simply saying that Luke has already faced the Dark Side as a character and overcome it. Going over that again but suggesting he failed the second time off screen seems a silly idea to me. Luke should just be a secondary character, instructing the new hero who must travel the hero's journey. But who knows what choices she'll make? We'll see...
     
  17. Kyber

    Kyber Rebelscum

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    I don't know if y'all follow this guy, but this thread reminded me of this video. If you have the time, it's a good watch. He's a really intelligent guy and knows his Star Wars.
     
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  18. Moral Hazard

    Moral Hazard Force Sensitive

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    Just to clarify for my head...
    I know this much is canon...
    ...but this could be interpreted (misinterpreted?) as individuals "breathing/creating" light or dark Living Force energy as opposed to neutral Living Force power that can be used for light or dark puposes.

    Are you implying a positive or negative Living Force feed-back loop outside of the broader conscious energy feedback ideas that might manifest in the universal law sense (e.g. reciprocity, karma, garbage in garbage out, as we do to others so we do to ourselves etc.).
     
  19. GingerByte

    GingerByte Guest

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    I'm pretty sure the force by nature is neutral: how you use the force determines the state. Dark siders manipulate and impose their will upon it, light siders allow it to freely flow through them and obey its "instructions."
     
  20. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi General

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    Yeah I believe so. The force is a real tangible thing of course. It's made up of energy created by life. So as much as there is just one force the energy must consist of something that derives from the actions of all living things. Non sentient life would create neutral energy and sentient life would create good, bad and neutral.

    My suggestion is that when the Sith are about spreading evil everywhere that more people live in fear and despair. Thus the energy they omit is more dark than light. This then makes the dark side "stronger".

    When there are no Sith things are generally balanced and life is in harmony. The more light the better in this respect as all life desires happiness, freedom and peace over oppression. This is as I say the true will of the force.
     
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