Did Anakin's "redemption" weaken the legend of Darth Vader?

I never loved Vader. He always killed the weaks and kneeled in front of the strong. He was the pathetic executioneer of a Master. He was the slave he was when he was a kid.

 

For me, it always has to come back to: is this an interesting story; is this an interesting movie; why do I care about these characters?

So, firstly, what is "the legend of Darth Vader" outside of what that phrase actually means to the people in the films themselves?
Was he a legend? Maybe to some. Seems to me people like Motti didn't have a great deal of respect for him at all. Feared him maybe, but that's a different story altogether.
Secondly, would anyone within the movies have known what actually went down on the second Death Star, other than - Palpatine is dead, Vader is dead and the Death Star has gone kaboom...?

So then you step outside of the "legend" within the movies, and look at our perception of Vader as a character in a story, and every time I would take the more complex "is Luke's father, turned to the Dark Side and is ultimately redeemed" version over anything else. I mean that IS the story of Star Wars. I don't know how you can separate Star Wars from that story really.
I mean, the first film is great as a standalone, and was a obviously game-changer in the world of cinema back in 1976 in many ways, but - from my own personal point of view - when Vader reveals that he is Luke's father, and then everything after that, is where the character takes on a whole other level of greatness.
That lingering look from the bridge of the Executor as the Falcon blasts away at the end of TESB, and then seeing him stride past the Imperial lackeys he would normally be choking, but isn't, because he's clearly got other things on his mind - those are the kind of moments that make Vader a great charater to me.

For me, the legend of Darth Vader IS that we were introduced to this rather stereotypical big bad guy, and eventually the layers were peeled back to reveal a normal, frail old man with feelings beneath the monster... that IS Vader, and that is what makes him appealing as a character.
To me at least.
I don't think Star Wars - the orginal films at least - would have resonated with me half as much as they do if Luke had just defeated Vader and the Emperor and that was it, the bad guys were beaten - the end.
Some people love the prequels; some people hate them - we all know that.
Some people point to ROTJ and say - this is where "the cracks started appearing": Look, there are Ewoks; Obi-Wan's "certain point of view" backtracking; Leia is Luke's sister etc.
I appreciate those criticisms, but - again, just my opinion - ROTJ also contains some of the absolute core Star Wars moments. I don't think I'd have prefered it to pan out any other way...

 

I always though the same! In a way he was a slave his entire life (Gardulla, the jedi and then Palpatine/the Empire), maybe he never knew anything else. Still he was a force to be reckoned with. The only one who didnt fear him was probably his own master and in the end he stood up against him and threw him off the deathstar after being completely wrecked and maimed by his own son. I dont think it weakens him in any way.

 

All of that is true, but there's more to Vader than that.

He was a slave not just when he was a kid, but for his entire life. First a slave to Watto, then a slave to the Jedi Order, then a slave to the Empire. The only free breath he ever took was when Luke removed his helmet.

 

I totally agree with you my friend. Up until ESB, Vader was just another villain we wanted the hero to destroy so that good may have triumphed. Just another drone in the service of his master and the guy responsible for Ben's death and Leia's torture in ANH and Han's torture and carbonite freeze. We saw him as a simple heartless monster who cared for nothing and even the lives of his servants meant nothing to him. It wasn't till the moment after ''Luke I am your Father'' that we start seeing Vader in an all new light. I could say more but I think your explanation covers it all in the best way possible.

 

The fact that Vader was evil is not a fact, just a point of view. If you believe that you are righteous, are you really evil, or just misguided? The end for the Emperor was always down to Anakin, he had forseen it. The separation of Vader & Anakin was his realisation that he was doing wrong, and this was needed to end his story. To return him from the dark side. It enhances the character, not detracts from it.

 

Vader's redemption in ROTJ (I'm pretending the PT never happened) is the reason why SW is head and shoulders better then any blockbuster franchise.

If you look at the OT there is so much going on with the good guys to flesh out, now we see the bad guy fleshed out.

I say this cause the Vader redemption in 1983 went right over my head as I was 11 years old and cared more about the good guys.

But as I explored the OT again years later as an adult I started to appreciate Vader's redemption or Luke's failure at the cave. I liked that Lucas didn't have Luke kill his father like every revenge movie, instead he throws down his lightsaber. What summer blockbuster are you going to see the hero do that and essentially give himself up to the villain?

I feel for Anakin when his force ghost appears (played by Sebastian Shaw) so I can say it didn't weaken the Vader character when I watch 4,5,6.

 

If you go as far as Vader being a Samurai to his Shogun then yes- the redemption weakened the legend. Within the movie to make it work I say simply no it did not.

 

I agree.

During ANH Vader is taking orders from Governor Tarkin and his aides have the courage do disagree with his actions ("holding her is dangerous"). At the end of the film it becomes obvious he has failed: in retrieving the Death Star plans, preventing the Death Star from being destroyed and putting an end to the Rebel Alliance.

By the time of ESB he seems to have found his own sense of purpose, i.e. get a hold of his son to overthrow the Emperor and rule the galaxy as father and son. Nothing will stop him to accomplish that, but at the end what's the result? Big failure, again.

The early drafts of ROJ illustrate Jerjerrod as the new right hand man of the Emperor after Vader has somewhat fallen out of favor. The scene where Jerjerrod denies Vader access to the Emperor's elevator may have been deleted for good reasons, but it's still obvious that the Emperor didn't like Vader's intrusion, having him told to stay on the command ship.

The ANH novelization described that Vader would have preferred the presence of equals rather than mundanes as Tarkin and Motti. Yet, he never was an equal but only a servant who did what he was told by his master. And since he learned that the Emperor didn't mind Luke killing him and taking his place, the ultimate question still remains how much of his final action was truly on behalf of his son and how much was really vengeance for never having been acknowledged by the Emperor as an equal (remember the original film title Revenge of the Jedi?)

 

But Vader was not a villain. He was a tragic hero, in the mold of Greek tragedy. His pride and anger brought him down. Yeah, when Lucas first came up with him, he was nothing but a big bad guy, but as the story was formed, he became something much more than that. His redemption became the purpose of the OT, and it made him a more interesting, complicated and satisfying character.

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 28, 2015, Original Post Date: Oct 28, 2015 ---

Eh, I've never seen it that way. If Vader wanted to strike at Palpatine, he could have done so at any point during the throne room fight. All he wanted right then was to convert Luke. I've always taken it that it was Luke's actions—tossing aside his lightsaber, saying "No," to the Dark Side and sacrificing his own desires (and potentially letting his Rebel friends and family die)—that really redeemed Vader.

Vader watched Luke be a bigger, better man than Anakin ever was. "Follow me, or the ones you love will die," is exactly the same offer Palpatine made to Vader. Vader chose to save Padme, regardless of the consequences. I lived half my life before the Prequels, and that's how RotJ has always seemed to me. Even before we knew the story, we knew that Vader had chosen to follow the Emperor, despite having once been a great Jedi. Vader got to see his own son make the choice that Anakin had been too weak to make. That's powerful stuff.

With the added info from the Prequels (which were undoubtedly flawed, but still had good moments), it becomes even more dramatic. What did Vader see right then, as Luke writhed under the Force lightning? He saw Mace Windu in a Coruscanti window. It was a replay of one of the worst, most decisive moments of his life; but he had just watched Luke choose to stand against evil, even if the cost was his life (and quite possibly the lives of Leia, Han and the entire Rebellion). The entire story came full-circle, and Vader found himself in the position to make a new choice. This time, he made the right one, all because of Luke's conviction.

Star Wars (especially the OT) is about redemption. Han and (to a lesser degree) Lando found their redemption, in a way so did Obi-Wan and Yoda (since they repaired the mistakes of the past), and Vader definitely did.

Also, there's the whole Force ghost thing. I'm not sure that Anakin could have transcended to that level, had his action against Palpatine been simple revenge.

 

^^ You delivered a very sound counter-argument (ironically the Force ghost appearance is a strong factor but the one big continuity flaw between PT and OT, because acoording to the PT only Qui-Gonn, Yoda and Obi-Wan knew!), where I tried to suggest a rationalization to make Vader's rather unexpected change of mind (IMHO) more plausible.

For starters where was a credible family bond between Luke and Vader? While being his biological father, I'd dare to say that Luke was more in need of a father (figure) than Vader in need of a son. To Vader Luke was rather an asset, a tool he thought he could use to overthrow the Emperor, possibly aware of Luke's need for a father which played a considerable role in his attempt to make Luke join him in Bespin.

Their next encounter is at the Endor landing platform where they talk. I'd dare to say that Luke must have make a big impression, coming there unarmed and unafraid. It's probably one of the few times Vader came face-to-face with a true "equal" after his conversion. Yet, the time is rather short to create a kind of real father-son bonding and it's anything but clear what kind of "conflict" could possibly occur or arise in the Dark Lord. Luke suggests that they both go somewhere else and leave everything behind, but Vader replies he must obey his master. Luke assumes that because of the "good" in him, Vader didn't kill him at Bespin, not realizing (?) that he is merely the biological off-spring, but still an valuable asset in the plans of the Emperor.

Next we see both of them fighting in the Emperor's throne room, and I never had the impression that Vader was in any sort "soft" trying to defeat and kill Luke (those who believe in the PT could say it was either him or Luke, a fight to the death). Then he realizes that Luke has a sister (more like Luke has a sister with no "I have a daughter") and suggests to turn her to the Dark Side, if Luke won't - which makes Luke go berserk who defeats Vader by chopping of his right hand which makes Luke realize what kind of path he just entered.

Finally Luke says no to the Emperor who in return torments Luke with Force energy bolts. Witnessing the torture something happens in Vader who then grabs the Emperor and throws him down the tower shaft to save Luke's life.

Now, I'd dare to say that Vader probably has seen plenty of similar tortures (definitely plenty of bodies) so why the sudden change of mind on behalf of somebody he tried to kill himself several minutes earlier and is merely his biological ofspring?

Some explanations I tried to come up (or a combination of these):

1) Luke is the last connection to his mother Vader has and perhaps reminds him of her strong and ethical will
2) Luke (and Leia) is the really only worthwhile "thing" Vader accomplished during his life and feels the need to save that
3) Vader realizes that the Emperor won't bring peace and order to the galaxy and his children are the last hope for that

Reasons 1) and 2) are of a selfish and personal nature which IMHO shouldn't be enough to get him the "return ticket" to the neutral side of the Force, leaving 3) as the only one which would not be of such a selfish and personal nature and qualify as a "redemption".

But it's still rather sudden and implausible, IMHO.

Of course, alternate explanations almost look worse. Personally, I have no other explanation for the unbelievable transition of Anakin to the Dark Side in the PT than the theory that Anakin was a very weak-minded chap and Palpatine used all his brainwashing powers on him during these pivotal moments in Episode III (and beyond). But then the concept of "free will" would go down the drain and we'd have the terrible "It wasn't me, it was the hooded evil guy who made me do these things" apologetic explanation.
Well, it's obvious that the Emperor was so focused on Luke that he didn't notice that he had loosened Vader's "mental" leash.

I then could rather live with the subtle but present hint by Ben:

LUKE I can't do it, Artoo. I can't go on alone.

BEN (OS) Yoda will always be with you.

In ESB that sounded rather different:

BEN If you choose to face Vader, you
will do it alone. I cannot interfere.

So is it possible that Yoda as a sort of guardian angel talked some sense into Vader while he was watching Luke being tormented, certain the Emperor was pre-occupied with doing his Force bolt thing?

If you accept the PT as canon, I dare to say that is quite a realistic if not inevitable possibility. Considering that only Qui-Gonn, Yoda and Ben had learned the knowledge how to attain immortal consciousness and appear as a Force ghost, they must have provided Anakin with some speed-learning after his return to the Jedi, otherwise Anakin would not have managed to appear as a Force ghost.

 

Points on why I think Vader's redemption was not arbitrary:

1) It is strongly implied by the Emperor that Vader has "feelings" for Luke, even though Vader denies it. Vader may not have been fully aware of these feelings himself, but I believe they're there.
2) You can hear the pathos in Vader's voice during the speech on the Bespin catwalk, again in Jedi when he says "It's too late for me". He has feelings for Luke and is conflicted himself.
3) Luke and Leia are a reminder of his humanity - of who he once was but thought was completely dead. As the trilogy progresses he realizes this. In the opening of A New Hope he is an unstoppable war machine. By the end of Jedi he is human again.

It feels totally natural to me. I don't think Lucas had that arc in mind when he made A New Hope so the progression isn't really there, but by the time he did Empire it's clear to me (in hindsight of course) that this was his long game for Vader. I think it works amazingly.

BTW, as a kid I wasn't really moved by Vader's redemption. I think I would have preferred for Luke to destroy him. Now that I'm old and a dad those scenes move me to tears and basically are the best part of the saga to me.