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Did Anakin's "redemption" weaken the legend of Darth Vader?

Discussion in 'Original Trilogy' started by Jimba Fett, Oct 17, 2015.

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Did Anakin's redemption weaken the legend of Darth Vader?

  1. Yes

    5 vote(s)
    11.6%
  2. No

    37 vote(s)
    86.0%
  3. Maybe

    1 vote(s)
    2.3%
  1. stencil

    stencil Rebel General

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    Since Vader believes that he himself is beyond redemption, maybe he sees there are really only three options:
    1) Luke joins him and they rule the galaxy together
    2) Luke refuses and is destroyed by the emperor
    3) The emperor is able to turn luke and he destroys his father

    I think by the time Vader talks to Luke on the moon, Vader is convinced that he can't turn Luke. So that leaves options 2 and 3. And Vader would rather be killed by Luke than to kill Luke. Kind of sad really.

    Thoughts?
     
  2. Jimba Fett

    Jimba Fett Rebelscum

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    If he cared for Luke's well being why would he want him to be the Emperor's apprentice? If he had any feelings for him surely saying he should go into hiding would have been better for his son than join the emperor?

    Vader's actions and words give every indication that he is incapable of love or affection at this point. He even goads Luke to feel hatred by threatening to turn his sister over to the Darkside. Even the relish in his eerie voice when he says "sister, so you have a twin sister" seems to ring true for his character.

    It could have been a falsehood considering the Emperor was there listening but something tells me he wanted Luke to fall to the darkside. If only to validate his own reasons for turning to the darkside. Even when his son is being tortured with force lightning and Luke is pleading for his father to help him Vader simply looks on and does nothing. This horrifying torture goes on for a long time and then all of a sudden Vader switches. Why doesn't he act sooner? What was he turning over in his head to take so long to decide? Maybe Vader was testing himself. To see if he had what it takes to be a sith Lord. Could he stand by and do nothing while his son is being murdered? Was he thinking if I leave it a bit longer the Emperor will believe I am on his side right until the moment I strike to catch him unawares. Maybe he didn't realise at the time he would terminate his own life by making contact with the lightning. Why would he knowingly take his own life when he could've quite as easily used the force to throw the emperor into the abyss? Would Vader have wanted redemption if he had lived? My guess is he would rather have taken the mantle as Sith Master and continued to convince his son to be by his side as apprentice. After all he believed in the power of the darkside he makes that very clear throughout the trilogy.
     
    • Like Like x 1
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  3. stencil

    stencil Rebel General

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    Ha, we read this movie so differently! Here's what I see:

    These are characters in extreme conflict. Not everything Vader or Luke does is going to be logically consistent. I think the conversation between Luke and Vader on the Endor moon is very telling though. When I watch that scene again, some of Vader's clearest thoughts seem to be:
    - He wants to be with his son.
    - He feels he is beyond redemption, that the Dark Side has consumed his destiny.
    - The Emperor is an irresistable force.

    These desires are somewhat at odds with one another. But he's mostly thinking he would like to rule the galaxy with his son. That would allow him to keep doing business as usual, but now he's with his son. What could be better? He sees he can't turn Luke. But Vader's thoughts have been consumed with finding Luke. He doesn't have the strength in him at this point to send Luke away, and he must also know that Luke would never just run away from him and the Emperor. This confrontation WILL happen, even if he tries to avoid it. So he does what he feels is only thing he can do, bring him to the emperor.

    In the throneroom under the Emperor's eye and influence, Vader says and does all the things a dark Jedi should. But Luke clearly said earlier that he could sense the good in his father, so there is some conflict going on here. Vader's power is fueled by hatred, but he clearly doesn't hate Luke. It's no wonder Luke bests him once he gives in to his rage. Vader at this point sees the deed accomplished - his son has become a dark Jedi and has used his anger to kill his father. I wonder if Vader feels regret at what his son has done at this point. But then, Luke does the impossible. He comes back - he throws down his lightsaber and once and for all refuses to be ruled by hatred. He knows he will die but still refuses to fight in anger any more. Luke shows him how redemption is possible. It's then that he turns back to the light and throws down the Emperor.
     
  4. AstromechRecords

    AstromechRecords Jedi General

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    I don't think it weakened the legend because only 3 people knew the full truth, and two of them died on The Death Star.
    --- Double Post Merged, Oct 30, 2015, Original Post Date: Oct 30, 2015 ---
    oh, the irony.
    --- Double Post Merged, Oct 30, 2015 ---
    What i find interesting, is that Vader thinks that he is doing good the whole time. Unfortunately, by ROTJ, he knows that he is doing wrong, hence the, "It's too late for me, my son..." line; He knows he's f*cked and is scared to try and change. In TFA, we have been led to believe so far that Kylo Ren thinks he is doing good. What if KR has a similar tragic hero's journey? And then he turns "good" according to the recent rumors...
     
  5. Jimba Fett

    Jimba Fett Rebelscum

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    That was my main reason for creating this thread - I don't want the bad guys to turn good. Everything I love about the bad guys is because they are bad. I don't even want Kylo Ren to be a solo or a skywalker which seems almost inevitable. When I talk of legend, I only mean a legend to us not a legend within the narrative for the other characters.
    --- Double Post Merged, Oct 30, 2015 ---
    I am attempting to separate Vader from Anakin. Anakin is the flawed human being. Vader is the suit, the mask, the embodiment of badass, villainy. A being devoid of feelings or attachments. A true Sith Lord! When Anakin, allowed himself to be taken over by the darkside, to kill children, his wife, the other Jedi, he died at that point. His soul forever broken and lost. I don't think redemption in his case is terribly realistic or something I actually want for the character. It's something I've had to accept as part of the story.
     
    • Wise Wise x 1
  6. Pastor Barndog

    Pastor Barndog Force Attuned

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    I don't think its sudden. Luke senses good. It sounds like wishful thinking even to Vader but we know the end. While Luke is under torture he looks on he looks to the emperor and you know there is conflict being considered. He then acts he intercedes and kills the Emperor. Anakin's emotions have always been extreme. Look at his fall. After Windu dies he is a wreck. You can feel the emotional manipulation being worked on him in Palps actions. He then follows the only course he feels he has. When he reconsiders watching Luke in pain he acts following the only course he has.
     
  7. Jimba Fett

    Jimba Fett Rebelscum

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    @Pastor Barndog @stencil
    When luke says to vader on the Imperial landing platform in ROTJ "I know there is good in you" I wonder if he would feel that way if he knew the full story.

    Vader: "You really think so".
    Luke: "yes"
    Vader: "maybe there is good in me. I mean I know I went a bit wild in the Jedi Temple. They just didn't understand me. They didn't recognise by greatness.The Emperor thought it for the best if I butchered them all.
    Luke: what?
    Vader: I know pretty bad huh?
    Luke: but surely the emperor had you under some kind of spell?
    Vader: He showed me how to unlock my true potential. I did anything he asked of me, even killing children. But I should have known better than....
    Luke: nooooooo it's not true
    Vader: "and then there was your mother. She didn't agree with some of my decisions so I ended up force choking her and eventually she died of a broken heart..."
    Luke: "nooooooo that's impossible".
    Vader: it's all fine though right? I mean you sensed the good in me. I can't be all that bad?
    Luke: Obi wan was right all along, you killed my father. You're a monster!

    In order to believe in his redemption you have to believe there is humanity beneath the mask. What human being would do all that and want to do good at the end of it all? Look at people in history who have done heinous crimes against humanity. Some have turned to God in prison. Would you believe or even care that they themselves are trying to make amends for their abhorrent past? After all of what he had done, killing the emperor has immediately afforded him the place to sit side by side with yoda and Obi wan. I'm sorry but that's like giving Sadam Hussein sainthood for saving his son in a fire and killing himself in the process.
     
    #27 Jimba Fett, Oct 30, 2015
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2015
  8. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Rebel Official

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    For myself I reserve the right to doubt the truthfulness of events as depicted in Episode III. It's somewhat not compatible with the documentary "The Chosen One" (the bonus program that came along with Episode III) where Lucas himself tried to make the point that nobody is really evil, but does the things he or she feels is right.

    IMHO, the one thing everybody needs is a sense of purpose. By the time of ESB it's obvious that Vader's main purpose is to get his hands on his son at almost all cost and possibly to bring peace and order to the galaxy by removing the Emperor. But he fails and at the end of the film it's obvious he enters a strange meditative mood that even makes him forget to deal with Admiral Piett "accordingly".

    By the time of ROJ Vader seems to be in some kind of "midlife-crisis". What has he accomplished in his life, has he contributed to bringing peace and order to the galaxy or has he just made it worse? Luke in ESB is obviously some sort of catalyst that makes the man behind the mask think and possibly start doubting himself, probably the "conflict" Luke refers to in ROJ.

    The Emperor is becoming increasingly suspicious, it probably takes most of Vader's energy to shield his thoughts from the Emperor until the moment Palpatine is so pre-occupied with Luke that Vader finally has the chance "to think clearer".

    I still agree that his change of mind comes rather suddenly and that his subsequent elevation to a Force ghost remains debatable. But since we are looking at a fairy-tale analogy it was nevertheless somewhat inevitable.
     
  9. Jimba Fett

    Jimba Fett Rebelscum

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    I haven't seen the documentary. Even Hitler believed he was doing the right thing with the extermination of the Jews.... enough said.
    --- Double Post Merged, Nov 2, 2015, Original Post Date: Nov 2, 2015 ---
    I like the scene with Vader in TESB when he walks passed Admiral Piett. It's a nice little touch. The meditative moment however is vastly open to interpretation as to what he is actually thinking.

    I agree he is in conflict with his past and that works. To say he isn't evil is to say that evil only exists in people that don't try to justify their actions. I can't agree with that notion.
    --- Double Post Merged, Nov 2, 2015 ---
    I know full well what is being implied in the whole conflict and redemption of Anakin/Vader. I just don't think it's very realistic. I agree with you though, when all is said and done it's a fairy tale anology after all and I shouldn't take it so seriously. If the saga wasn't so tainted by ROTS and the PT in general I would probably feel differently about it.
     
  10. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Rebel Official

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    I believe I can say I do understand exactly how you feel. We were talking about the "conflict" in Vader and was trying to highlight the "conflict" in Lucas' statements - and final film. Neither do I take Anakin's transfer to the Dark Side seriously (just because you make some bad decisions and are late for supper doesn't explain why it becomes imperative to kill your family) nor do I buy Anakin "childkiller".

    As a matter of fact a friend of mine and myself wrote letters to LEGO and HASBRO and asked and urged them to have Lucasfilm at least excise the child killing scene in Episode III for the upcoming video release, appealing to their senses whether they thought it's really okay to promote and sell all these Darth Vader toys to Kids ("playing Anakin Childkiller in school isn't cool"). Alas, just standard replies without any sense of responsibility or concern.
    Then we had the general issue of school killings back in 2005 and Episode III wasn't helping the issue - needless to say we really hated it that we were proven right recently.

    I had many discussions with other Star Wars fans following Episode III - "Didn't you know he was a mass murderer?"

    To which I replied "No, according to the body count in the OT he isn't, but we could wonder how many people got killed when Luke blew up the first Death Star...."
     
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  11. Jimba Fett

    Jimba Fett Rebelscum

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    I agree with pretty much everything you said and I love the bit about Luke - now there is food for thought. If you include Anakin's previous misdeeds you could argue Vader was a mass murderer.



    As the PT is canon it would be difficult to dispute the fact that overall Anakin/Vader killed about 60 people in way or another. That would qualify as mass murder. In the OT alone no he wouldn't be considered a mass murderer as such.
     
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  12. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Rebel Official

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    ^^ I'm impressed with the effort to make this kind of video - and maybe have one more to add. A picture I came across recently appears to suggest that Captain Antilles wasn't the first one on Princess Leia's ship to be questioned by Darth Vader....
     

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  13. Jimba Fett

    Jimba Fett Rebelscum

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    Very interesting.
     
  14. Donn Swaby

    Donn Swaby Rebel Trooper

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    Real human beings are not two dimensional. Scratch the surface of any villain and you will find a person who has shut out life in an attempt not to feel pain, which is it's own kind of suffering. If you block out pain, you block out love. Remember, Lucas was inspired by Campbell's Hero With A Thousand Faces and the Monomyth/Hero's Journey. The whole point of any story is it's either a tragedy where the hero does not grow/change or it's a victory where the hero truly becomes a hero by opening up to loving others and even sacrificing themselves for love. The beauty of Star Wars is realizing through the fall and redemption of Anakin that human beings are not two-dimensional or robots. We have souls and we are spiritual beings. That's what Lucas' message ultimately is.
     
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  15. Bendak Starkiller

    Bendak Starkiller Force Sensitive

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  16. One Large WompRat

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    It only diminishes his evil. He was a great character, perhaps the greatest character. When he was unmasked, it was a disappointment to me. I felt sorry for the old man. And, that is what he was. Before the unmasking, he was evil unleashed. But it was also redemption, and that is what I think this story is ultimately about.
    --- Double Post Merged, Jun 4, 2017, Original Post Date: Jun 4, 2017 ---
    Unless said person is a psychopath. which I believe Vader to be.
     
  17. wenbilson

    wenbilson Clone Commander

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    Damn dude, crushed Vader hard. I have to say I agree with you, excellent points
     
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  18. Wayward Jedi

    Wayward Jedi Rebelscum

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    The redemption is the whole point of the story.
     
  19. Yoda's revenge

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    I don't see how killing your evil boss destroys anything. And by killing him he exited the movie not as a Jedi but as a Sith because siths always kill their masters in the end Jedi are always told to hide their emotions it was love that sent him down his tragic path and it was love that saved and if Luke wasn't a grey Jedi and was a normal Jedi there is a good chance he never would have been able to save Vader in the first place
     
    #39 Yoda's revenge, Nov 24, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2020
  20. The Birdwatcher

    The Birdwatcher Rebel Official

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    :)

    Now this is my kind of topic!

    In my opinion, Vader's redemption was besides the point and came almost out of nowhere in ROTJ. To be fair, "Vader giving up on turning Luke" is rather unconvincing, since, in Empire, after Luke rejects his offer, he tries again (via telepathy, assuming that the final shots convey this-the third draft seems to imply that it's more of a personal moment). Yes, he doesn't choke or kill the Imperials on his ship after Luke leaves, but that doesn't mean a starting down the path to redemption.

    In Return of the Jedi, we suddenly get lines, such as:
    "The emperor is not as forgiving as I am"
    "The emperor is displeased with your current lack of progress"

    When we see that the emperor is chill with the progress, and to be fair, the Emperor is far more forgiving than Vader is to his men compared with how the Emperor treats Luke- he gives him plenty of chances out of his arrogance (and the deleted scene of commanding the Imperial to blow up the Endor moon, Palpatine seems to let off Jerjerod with a warning). To be fair, these lines build up the Emperor as the big bad, but are not effectively proved within the film itself.

    The fact that "Vader gave up" and also thought "oh, the Emperor can do it", seems inconsistent with how crazy Vader is to find Luke and beat him into submission in Empire. When the Emperor's mannerisms, arguments are even worse than Vader's- imo. The Emperor can do it? The Emperor did a lousy job of convincing Luke to join the dark side- "with each passing moment, you make yourself my servant"?

    Like I don't get why Vader doesn't explain to Luke why he wants to rule with Luke, what that means to him, how much Luke means to him, why the rebels should be crushed, describe all the power that he could give to Luke, etc. Or, torture Luke first before bringing him to the Emperor?

    Also, if it didn't matter to Vader who turned Luke to the dark side, why did Vader think that Luke would join with him once Luke was on the dark side?
     
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