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Did Anakin's "redemption" weaken the legend of Darth Vader?

Discussion in 'Original Trilogy' started by Jimba Fett, Oct 17, 2015.

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Did Anakin's redemption weaken the legend of Darth Vader?

  1. Yes

    5 vote(s)
    11.6%
  2. No

    37 vote(s)
    86.0%
  3. Maybe

    1 vote(s)
    2.3%
  1. Iotatheta

    Iotatheta Rebelscum

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    Technically......no, imo. For a few things.

    1) killing your master is a very Sith thing. But why did Vader do it and how does that land on being Sithy? Sith typically kill their masters for their power, out of selfishness, greed, etc. In contrast, Vader’s act was selfless. He killed his master, risking his own life, to save his son. That is a very Light thing, imo.

    2) Luke is not and was not really a “Grey Jedi.” He was a Jedi, and uses that term in connection with who Anakin was. Jedi aren’t taught to hide their emotions, rather that they are not to be controlled by them, to not let their emotions blind them in crucial moments. Many Jedi do feel emotions, even Obi-wan knew love, anger, but he also did not let them blind him.

    Formatting note, might I recommend using some periods or commas for breaks? After the first sentence, that post read like one long run-on sentence and was a little tricky to determine where a thought started and ended.

    I’ve noticed you have a tendency to take issue with Vader’s redemption. Idk if it’s just me, but I felt it flowed pretty well in the OT. He never really seemed to want to kill Luke. And even in RotJ, whether he could be redeemed was in question until the end.

    as for the lines about the Emperor, 1) i don’t think you can take a deleted scene as sure evidence that they fall flat, and 2) just because we see one thing and hear another does not mean they can only contradict. We know Vader is not forgiving, and he believes Palpatine is far worse (and he isn’t the only one). We also know that almost *everything* that happened in RotJ was planned out by Palpatine. He’s ok with the Death Star progress because he *wants* the rebels to think they have a chance. He wants to corrupt Luke, and he gives Luke “chances” because he’s trying to break down Luke’s Jedi-ness and get him to act as a Sith.

    Vader’s attempt was through the familial connection. He’a hoping that them being father and son could be enough to sway Luke, who had lost the rest of his other (known) family. It could also be said, as to *why* he didn’t explain more, that he just..couldn’t in the moment. Luke was pretty adamant in his reaction after finding out Vader was his father.

    That failed for Vader. The Emperor’s plan was to force Luke into his emotions and to draw on the Dark Side to corrupt him. Get him to strike him down out of anger for what was happening to his friends, and effectively promising the power to stop it all. That, usually, is a better tactic. And it kind of shows how the Emperor is more apt at corrupting Jedi and others, whereas Vader might not have been.
     
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  2. The Birdwatcher

    The Birdwatcher Rebel Official

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    I’ve noticed you have a tendency to take issue with Vader’s redemption. Idk if it’s just me, but I felt it flowed pretty well in the OT. He never really seemed to want to kill Luke. And even in RotJ, whether he could be redeemed was in question until the end.

    Yes, because who wants to kill your legacy and only spawn at this point in TESB?

    as for the lines about the Emperor, 1) i don’t think you can take a deleted scene as sure evidence that they fall flat

    That was trying to find additional evidence for why the Emperor was still more merciful than Vader than just the Emperor being in a good mood and saying that everything is "proceeding as I have foreseen", despite being "displeased" in the Death Star 2's progress, according to Vader.

    , and 2) just because we see one thing and hear another does not mean they can only contradict. We know Vader is not forgiving, and he believes Palpatine is far worse (and he isn’t the only one). We also know that almost *everything* that happened in RotJ was planned out by Palpatine. He’s ok with the Death Star progress because he *wants* the rebels to think they have a chance.

    Then why did Vader tell the Imperial, that the Emperor was displeased, if they are all on the plan? Does the average Imperial Commander (Jerjerrod) not know the plan of destroying the rebels? Why does Vader tell the Imperial to speed things up and for the workers to promise to "double their efforts"? If the rebels are supposed to think of having a chance?

    He wants to corrupt Luke, and he gives Luke “chances” because he’s trying to break down Luke’s Jedi-ness and get him to act as a Sith.


    Yes, but the Emperor could have well started torturing Luke or delimbing him, since it was traumatic the last time. I mean, the Emperor goes for the salesman tactic basically- but says it's inevitable and Luke must join because it is futile.

    Vader’s attempt was through the familial connection. He’a hoping that them being father and son could be enough to sway Luke, who had lost the rest of his other (known) family.

    Yes, plus power and the whole galaxy and sharing that with Luke.

    It could also be said, as to *why* he didn’t explain more, that he just..couldn’t in the moment. Luke was pretty adamant in his reaction after finding out Vader was his father.

    Sorry I don't explain myself more. I meant more explanation in ROTJ- Vader does give some explanation in TESB, though it's still not a whole lot- it's "end this destructive conflict and bring order to the galaxy"- he sees the rebels as destructive and needing to be brought down.

    Hamill doesn't seem adamant, besides denial, then horror and acceptance in TESB. He looks disillusioned/crazy while listening to Vader before getting a crazy/daring look before he jumps. Not really adamant. In the bridge scene in ROTJ, Luke is adamant there, being stoic most of the time.

    That failed for Vader.

    Not in TESB, Vader still pursues Luke telepathically onboard the Falcon. He doesn't give anymore explanation, but does re-emphasize his connection to Luke, hauntingly, almost tenderly.

    The Emperor’s plan was to force Luke into his emotions and to draw on the Dark Side to corrupt him. Get him to strike him down out of anger for what was happening to his friends, and effectively promising the power to stop it all.

    Through killing the Emperor, which is just 1 kill out of millions that Luke has done. I guess the level of anger and HATE required to kill the Emperor is more than the levels to kill the millions on the Death Star 1? And that said killing of the Emperor will turn Luke IMMEDIATELY TOWARDS the dark side?

    Also, the power to stop it would then lie with Vader, other generals, etc., unless you mean if Luke directly joined the Emperor as he does in Dark Empire.

    That, usually, is a better tactic. And it kind of shows how the Emperor is more apt at corrupting Jedi and others, whereas Vader might not have been.

    Vader personally relates with logic, then offers power. The emperor gloats and belittles, while showing his "logic" (i.e. The fleet is doomed based on this one shot of it in space and the Empire knowing about the attack beforehand, therefore, the entire rebel alliance, even on Endor, will die.), then offers power, which are two turn-offs to the dark side
     
  3. SWEWF

    SWEWF Clone

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    I really dislike how the saga has a whole played out in regards to his 'redemption'. While I recognize that to an extent Star Wars has always revolved around the idea that anyone can be redeemed, every single canon that has ever happened in some way attempted to redeem the memory of Anakin, even before the prequels made it even more problematic. It's hard to redeem all the things Anakin has done, both as himself and later as Vader. It bugs me that the entire saga is seen as a Skywalker's story or the story of son's redeeming father's or even the story of redeeming the seemingly irredeemable because of just that. Some things are irredeemable. Period.

    That said, it's not meant to be taken that seriously and all of this is nonsense, so ignore this viewpoint.
     
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  4. DarthSkywalker03

    DarthSkywalker03 Rebelscum

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    I completely agree !! I think the fact his helmet had been removed in front of his own son he was instantly back to Anakin even if he put it back on it’s the fact is as an audience have seen that he is intact human after all ! But it is a definite heart wrench and I can’t quite put my finger on why because he has done so much evil and caused thousands and thousands of deaths across the galaxy. I believe it’s the fact he dies a very noble death and will live on forever.....enough said ! :D
     
  5. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    I think a lot of people have a hard time distinguishing between ‘redemption’ and ‘absolution’. Anakin is not instantly absolved of all his sins in ROTJ for saving Luke and killing the Emperor. That’s not what we’re being told. He was given the simple choice between either doing great good or doing great evil. And he chose to do good for pure and noble intentions. He chose to be better. In so doing, he reclaimed his humanity. He reclaimed his soul. THAT’S what was redeemed.

    Vader, as a figure, was never supposed to be admired. He wasn't supposed to be anyone's hero. He was always a sad and pathetic victim of his own myopic lust for unfulfilling power. "Only a master of evil". The prequels serve to reinforce a message plenty didn't pick up in the OT: his story is a tragedy. He's the guy you could be if you're not careful. Don't be that guy. Don't spend your life chasing after empty, selfish pursuits, only to die wishing you'd instead spent that time looking after the people you love.
     
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  6. MandoChip

    MandoChip Hate me later. Work now.
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    No, it strengthened it.
     
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  7. Martoto

    Martoto Rebel Official

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    What legend?
     
  8. daRinze

    daRinze Force Sensitive

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    I think, maybe something like "did Anakin redemption made Darth Vader less a super villain".

    Not "intact human", but better "reborn human".
    Remember TROS : Anakin was severely burned on Mustafar when he was left by Obiwan
    Remember R1 : he used to spend time in the bacta tank.
    Anakin has long been rebuilding himself as a human, and maybe he was doing it in hiding from Sidious, protected by his Darth Vader armor.

    Agreed, very important distinction to be made.
    Anakin is redeemed because he overpassed his long-time hate to let love guide him again, because he made Yoda lie when this one said to Luke on Dagobah: "Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny. ". Anakin's redemption just killed the "forever".
     
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  9. Lunchbox Gravity Zanmato

    Lunchbox Gravity Zanmato Rebel Commander

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    I believe that the redemption of Anakin did NOT weaken Vader but more-so showed his heart inside of a struggling shell from the pits of the dark side alignment and choice he made that would follow. When Anakin becomes Vader he follows the line of the dark side so anakin can no longer resist the power struggles his mind would embody so by story's end anakin appears not as he acted to this point but as he once was (but in a emotional perspective) in relationship as father to Luke Skywalker. Vader's legendary status even without the body is still lengthy and forever but it may not combat the platform in which it carried from who such embodied this armor of Vader in Aankin.

    Truly, Anakin's redemption puts a line between a hero and a villain while also showing that just because he was led wrong doesn't mean he could become what he knew he could have before he was known as Vader.

    Awesome sauce!!!
     
  10. Martoto

    Martoto Rebel Official

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    Anakin turned his back on everything and sold himself to the dark side because he couldn't let Padme die (as he saw it). When she did die the dark side became everything. Since he had nothing else left. He later renounced the dark side because he couldn't let his son die. I don't think anything changed with Anakin really in the end except he let go of the dark side which had sustained his mutilated body for twenty years. His motives remained the same from when he turned his back on everything except Padme and what Sidious promised would save her.
     
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  11. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    What's interesting is that this thread was originally posted in fall of 2015.

    Since then, we've had the entire sequel trilogy, some of what lightly explored Vader's in-universe legend. We've also seen hints of this in stuff like Bloodline, too (I haven't read it yet, but I need to).

    Basically, it seems like Vader's legacy was still as a villain, despite his "redemption". I think Luke perhaps had a new perspective on Vader, but that's really about it.
     
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  12. Lukestarbucker

    Lukestarbucker Force Sensitive

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    Anakin and vader. As a Jedi, anakin had, over time, been decieved by Palpatine and was lured into becoming a sith. He did it all for an attachment, Padmé, whom he should never of had. I think that Darth Vader was incredibly evil from there on out. He destroyed planets and massacred thousands, millions, or even billions of people who tried to rebell against the empire or those who didn’t want to deal with it. But, Luke comes along, changing Vader into Anakin again which we see in ROTJ. I think that this redemption doesn’t get in the way of Vader because they tie together well showing how Anakin changed and developed.
     
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