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Did Ben Solo use "The Skywalker Saber"?

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by master_shaitan, Sep 7, 2016.

  1. Pomojema

    Pomojema Ayatollah Of Rock-&-Rolla
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    That's, of course, presuming that the Lucasfilm Story Group and Rian Johnson are keeping the story element of Luke's other students having lightsabers, which is something they could have easily changed in revising the story between The Force Awakens and Episode VIII. Considering that they've already established that the Galaxy at large has all but forgotten about the Force some 53 years after Order 66 served as their Götterdämmerung, I think it's likely that they want lightsabers to be a rarity in the events immediately leading up to The Force Awakens.

    That will probably change with Episode VIII, Episode IX, and everything that takes place after this era, but the central idea behind The Force Awakens was summed up as "Who is Luke Skywalker? I thought he was a myth." The world is learning that the Force did indeed exist, and it returning to prominence will be the crux of the narrative going forward.

    [​IMG]
     
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  2. arjank

    arjank Clone Commander

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    And what is this "original leaked outline" ? where can I read it?

    Edit:
    This is interesting, here's a display from Disneyland
    [​IMG]

    This indeed means that the hand+saber flying through space (which was filmed) has been cut out of the story (if the above is canon). This also means that they changed the story in between the shooting schedule (which can be found here http://millenniumfalcon.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=9790 ) and the final version of the movie.
     
    #42 arjank, Sep 9, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2016
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  3. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi General

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    This:

    http://makingstarwars.net/2015/02/f...-be-up-to-before-star-wars-the-force-awakens/

    and this:

    http://makingstarwars.net/2015/05/a-compiled-synopsis-of-star-wars-the-force-awakens/
    --- Double Post Merged, Sep 9, 2016, Original Post Date: Sep 9, 2016 ---
    I'm not sure that changes anything though. The saber was always going to have to have been found on Cloud City. It's what happened to it afterwards that is up for discussion. This early story of some peasant called Naka picking it up and then selling into the a clan which are destroyed by the KoR seems legit to me. But certainly not anything like canon yet,.
     
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  4. arjank

    arjank Clone Commander

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    So it could still be that it was tossed out of Cloudcity and fly through space with Luke's hand? (Luke's hand is not mentioned in the shooting schedule but I remember Mark Hamill mentioning this particular scene).
     
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  5. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi General

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    I think an Ugnaught likely found it or it was retrieved by someone loyal to Vader/The Empire. From there is was either sold on or lost at some point (the hand long gone) and ended up with Naka. If the floating through space thing is true, which is a bit naff, it might've been in a ship that was destroyed entering the atmosphere of a planet or something?

    The journey as I see it:

    Cloud city - ?? - Naka - Local trader - Clan leader - KoR - Maz - Finn - Rey - Luke
     
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  6. arjank

    arjank Clone Commander

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    Hmmm... but why do we see something that looks like a saber +hand (sleeve) falling down in TESB (Luke sees it falling down)? This doesn't add up.

    [​IMG]
     
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  7. nightangel

    nightangel Rebel Official

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    Here it is what Mark says:

    “I can tell you now that in the original opening shot of 7, the first thing that came into frame was a hand with a lightsaber, a severed hand that enters the atmosphere, and then the hand and bone burns away and goes sticking into the surface of Jakku” he added. “and this alien hand comes in, don’t know if it was Maz but it was an alien hand who takes the light saber way, and then the movie proceeds as you see it.”

    http://birthmoviesdeath.com/2016/05...h-us-mark-hamill-confirms-old-star-wars-scoop
     
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  8. arjank

    arjank Clone Commander

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    Yes, this is what I mean and it is actually a continuation of the scene in the picture I posted above, it fits perfectly ;)
     
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  9. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi General

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    I thought that was just the antenna that he knocked off at the top? I mean his saber fell waaaay before he did.
    --- Double Post Merged, Sep 9, 2016, Original Post Date: Sep 9, 2016 ---
    If this is the case, then it simply doesn't land on Jakku. I think people just assumed it was Jakku. But it must be whatever planet Cloud City is hovering above.
     
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  10. arjank

    arjank Clone Commander

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    Watch the scene again and watch Luke looking down, this is done on purpose so he sees his own hand falling down. That the hand looks more like a sleeve is probably because of the rating, they didn't want to show a severed hand.

     
  11. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi General

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    I meant when he drops out of the hole after he fell/jumped. He knocks something off the antenna or drops something. The saber and hand is gone somewhere else by then.
     
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  12. arjank

    arjank Clone Commander

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    That's what I always thought too but in that clip you don't see something getting knocked off (or they cut it out) and it definitely looks like it could be the saber and hand (sleeve) if you watch it frame by frame.
    Ask yourself this, why else would the initial idea for TFA be that the saber + hand are falling down? This would make most sense if the scene in TESB initiated the idea.
     
    #52 arjank, Sep 9, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2016
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  13. nightangel

    nightangel Rebel Official

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    you may check my post in the mystery thread, since it shows a canon answer to the question of the lightsaber vision and if the rain scene has dead bodies, or rocks. ;)
     
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  14. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi General

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    But the plaque says it was retrieved from the cities industrial depths...
     
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  15. arjank

    arjank Clone Commander

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    I know it does, canon contradiction? :)
     
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  16. Boushhdisguise

    Boushhdisguise Jedi General

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    I thought it could really be anything. It was a trash chute. Piece of broken antenna, whatever. I would think the hand and the saber would separate after it was taken off.
     
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  17. arjank

    arjank Clone Commander

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    True if we use logic, but is SW all logic? ;) I know the saber + hand was cut out of TFA in the editing room but the idea was there.
     
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  18. DarthPilkington

    DarthPilkington Rebel Official

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    @arjank pretty sure Pablo talked about the thing falling near Luke in ESB via a tweet; he seemed to suggest that it was probably just random junk and not Luke's hand/saber.

    one thing i think is important to remember in this discussion is some of the info revealed in the visual accompaniment to TFA:

    renben.jpg

    "The lightsaber skills of Kylo Ren are, ironically, responsible for that elegant weapon and its combat forms remaining unknown to the galaxy at large. Kylo Ren betrayed the other Jedi students studying with Master Luke Skywalker, and is responsible for their destruction. He has well earned the nickname 'Jedi Killer,' whispered in the First Order ranks, as it was his deadly lightsaber skills that prevented the return of the Jedi Order."

    this says to me that he must have had some lightsaber training prior to the destruction of Luke's new Jedi Order. where did he come about this knowledge if not using the family saber? i suppose he could have built and trained with his red saber in secret, but i for one believe that he did indeed use Anakin's saber.

    on the leaks concerning Maz stealing it after the attack on the Clan: seeing as to how these ideas never made it to the film i would say they're still up in the air, much like Luke's severed hand flying around in space. they weren't included because maybe they weren't the best ideas? either way, i'm unsure as to whether or not Maz could have stolen the saber even if Ben had been using it; do they have to be mutually exclusive?
     
    #58 DarthPilkington, Sep 9, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2016
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  19. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Coramoor

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    Yeah, I mentioned this in the Kylo Ren thread. It seems as if Kylo believes Vader has communicated with him somehow.
    Mark Hamill confirmed this was in the original script. The TFA editor said she was part of the group that killed the idea because it didn't make sense for new audiences.
     
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  20. Pomojema

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    That's because it is. Don't remember where I heard that, or something like that, but I did. (EDIT: Apparently, so did @DarthPilkington. Thanks for vouching for me!)

    And it makes perfect sense that it's not Luke's hand that you're seeing there when you really think about it. The trajectory of Luke's hand and the trajectory of Luke himself are completely separate. There were literally hundreds of vents that the lightsaber and the severed hand could have fallen down (and I should stress that the hand and lightsaber could have fallen in different directions if the hand's grip on the lightsaber had loosened). There are also multiple functions to those vents - Luke just had the bad luck of landing in one that had a trapdoor was right above led to the planet's crushing inner atmosphere. Logically speaking, then, it can be presumed that the lightsaber was most likely recovered by an Ugnaught managing the vents, and the weapon repeatedly switched hands from there until it belonged to Kylo Ren - and then Maz Kanata, when she stole it from him.

    But still, if the hand and the lightsaber weren't parted, let's just walk through the utterly insane, physics-defying leap of logic that would be required to make the scene possible. Let's also presume that nobody ever separated the hand from the lightsaber manually before it came into contact with Ben Solo. If the only way for the hand/lighstaber combo is down, then it would have to land in a vent which would lead to the exterior of Cloud City. From there, it would fall out and make its descent into Bespin's inner atmosphere. An atmosphere which, I might add, would put extreme pressure on most substances and would crush you to death before you even reached the 'bottom' of the Gas Giant, meaning that the lightsaber and the severed hand would be crushed together. But let's forget about that for a moment and say that the hand and the lightsaber could survive intact, without being crushed together - then it would have to escape the outer atmosphere of the planet, which would be a tall order to handle without any stimuli to change the handsaber's trajectory other than the possibility that Bespin just inexplicably exploded. Presuming it could escape the planet's inner atmosphere (which would require it not only overcome the sheer, overwhelming force of Bespin's gravity, but for it to accelerate upward to a point where it could actually escape the planet's outer atmosphere), there would also be the matter of the hand itself rotting (which of course would happen over time - and exposure to space would make the hand's decay even more erratic). The handsaber would likely travel through derelict space for thousands of years before coming into contact with another planet due to the astrophysics of how celestial bodies and objects move through three-dimensional space, but again, let's just presume that it could get somewhere in a time-frame of less than twenty years. The hand would understandably would burn up in re-entry, but so would the lightsaber - and even if it would survive, it would be piping-hot from the sheer amount of heat emanating from the object, so it wouldn't be something that someone could just pick up immediately after it landed.

    (My God, I've put too much thought into this.)

    Even by the standards of soft science-fiction work (or rather, science-fantasy with a minimal focus on the actual scientific aspect of the setting), at no point does a hand floating through space make any sense whatsoever, and no amount of "It was the will of the Force!" hand-waving would have made this scene work on any level from a creative standpoint. All in all, I'm grateful that the "floating hand" thing was sent to the trash early enough in development that they could come up with a much simpler, effective introduction that actually led into the movie's overall story. Having that bizarre sequence in the movie would have raised a bunch of really, really stupid questions for what would equate to a really, really dumb way to reintroduce the audience to the GFFA, especially considering that the Forceback was rearranged to the point where this opening sequence (which would have contextualized what the handsaber was and why newcomers should care) would have had absolutely nothing to do with anything. I will say, though, that in spite of my rant, I did like the idea of a montage showing the lightsaber passing hands over several years - it's just that the opener that they had planned was just so absurd that it nearly spoiled the entire concept for me.
     
    #60 Pomojema, Sep 10, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2016
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