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Did JJ Throw Himself Under a Bus?

Discussion in 'General Sequel Trilogy Discussion' started by SegNerd, Apr 15, 2020.

  1. Rogues1138

    Rogues1138 Crazy Old Wizard
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    I agree with this, films are subjective don't condemn those that dislike what you like or visa versa.

    Robert Meyer Burnett is a film director. He loves Star Trek, he basically dislikes Star Trek Discovery and Picard series, or new Star Trek but he continues to watch it because he is a fan of Star Trek. The only problem he has with New Star Trek is that it is plagued with bad storytelling.

    I continue to watch Star Wars even though I believe TROS is plagued with bad storytelling but I will not condemn those that like TROS, again films are subjective.

    I like TLJ but really dislike TROS (there are some redeeming parts). I continue to be a fan of Star Wars because there is so much to love in this franchise.
     
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  2. madcatwoman17

    madcatwoman17 Clone Commander

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    I was driven out for a very petty reason, but frankly no one who likes Ben/Kylo is welcome there....unlike this forum, where we might be in the minority but are at least allowed to express our views without being accused of:
    racism
    sexism
    supporting the abuse of women.

    Here we can simply post a 'dislike' button if we disagree rather than accusing people of serious real life prejudice and bigotry. Which have no place on a forum for discussing a series of fantasy films.
     
  3. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    Film appreciation is most certainly subjective. Film making though is the culmination of multiple honed disciplines that can absolutely be objectively evaluated with respect to skill and competency. The problem is when audience members can’t tell the difference between the two. What counts as critical analysis and what is really just personal preference?

    I think the ST has plenty of filmmaking/storytelling faults in it. But, then, so do the OT and PT. None of these movies are immaculate works of cinematic perfection. They’re all flawed in some way. But can you look past those flaws and appreciate the story for what it’s trying to be? That’s the challenge. And if the offending “flaw” has nothing really to do with the filmmaking/storytelling, but your own predilections, then that’s more on you as an individual than the filmmaker/storyteller.

    Well, in my opinion. I'm probably wrong :)
     
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  4. madcatwoman17

    madcatwoman17 Clone Commander

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    It's funny, but in many ways TROS reminded me of the final season of Game of Thrones....it was as if the makers just wanted to hurry up and get it over with.
     
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  5. Dryden Valiance

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    I think J.J. Abrams VS Rian Johhson VS J.J. Abrams was a mistake from the beginning (and they also wanted to include Colin Trevorrov in the mix). Disney thought that because the original trilogy was directed by three different directors, the sequels could also be directed by three different people. It's a stupid assumption, I don't know why they came to this conclusion.
    A trilogy cannot consist of three separate films (unless your name is Edgar Wright). A trilogy is basically a three-part film. I knew from the moment their plan was announced that it was going to be a disaster. I was hoping it was a fun disaster, an epic fail, but it was actually very sad and depressing. I had a lot of hope for the first black Stormtropper, but they turned Finn's character into a joke. They introduced Rose Tico as a token for the Chinese market and then bring the Emperor back out of nowhere. It's a shame for the franchise and for Disney.

    But I don't think there is anyone to blame. I think JJ could have directed a good trilogy and Johsonn too. But they both had an impossible task under impossible circumstances. This trilogy was doomed from the start.
    [​IMG]
    We are in the timeline where two parallel universes are collimated (Abrahm's vision and Johnson's): what we have is perhaps the best we could get

    My catastrophic depiction is just to refer Loki, I'm fine with the ST, I don't like them very much but I don't really care.
     
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  6. madcatwoman17

    madcatwoman17 Clone Commander

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    The OT were linked together by George Lucas, which is why they worked.
    I was genuinely baffled when they said Rian Johnson wrote them into a corner, because he didn't - he progressed and expanded upon what JJ Abrams had left.

    Abrams ended TFA with:
    Luke in exile, and not looking very happy when Rey turned up. Rian had to come up with a good reason why Luke chose exile, and why he looked so upset to see Rey
    Poe was supposed to be killed off in TFA; Oscar wanted him to live, so Rian had to find a place for him
    Finn and Rey were separated, Rian had to give them two different story arcs
    Snoke was criticised as not being a patch on the Emperor, so Rian had to figure out what to do with Snoke
    Killing Han apparently 'weakened' Kylo, Rian had to show that


    Rian left his successor with a number of interesting options. Leia was grooming Poe as her successor. What kind of General would he be?
    Kylo had taken control over the FO - but how would he cope as Supreme Leader in the face of Hux's obvious contempt and hatred? And how long could his ridiculous lie that Rey had not only killed Snoke but ALL his guards without breaking a sweat last?
    What would happen when the Resistance discovered Rey had gone to Kylo Ren?
    What would Finn's next actions be, and how would his relationship with Rose develop?
    How would the Resistance rebuild their ranks?
    Would Luke return as a FG to visit Kylo? (see you around, kid)
    What did the 'breaking of the lightsabre signify?

    Instead, Abrams and Terrio forgot all of this and created a film that almost completely ignored its predecessor. It was as if TLJ never existed. They even conveniently chose to forget that Luke's X Wing didn't have a door on it!

    Honestly I've seen fan fiction done better.
     
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  7. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    The door to Luke’s hut was fashioned from a panel off one of his fighter’s 4 wings. It wasn’t an actual door to anything before that.
     
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  8. Messi

    Messi G.O.A.T.

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    The prequels were directed by the same person, the creator, and see what we got!:rolleyes:
     
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  9. madcatwoman17

    madcatwoman17 Clone Commander

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    I think that was because George is a far better producer than director.

    By the way....whose face is on the disagree icon, because I keep thinking it's Jason Momoa from Dune!
     
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  10. Angelman

    Angelman Servant of the Whills -- Slave to the Muses
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    Forest Whitaker as Saw Gerrera (the rebel who rebels against the Rebels, i.e. he disagrees).
     
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  11. madcatwoman17

    madcatwoman17 Clone Commander

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    Thanks for that!
     
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  12. Dryden Valiance

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    I never said that the prequel are better than the sequel.
    As individual movies are definetely better than the first 3 episodes... but as a trilogy? They don't work at all (for me).

    There are a difference from good movie and good (or for a better term)/consistent trilogy. The Matrix trilogy for example are not all good movies, but are a consistetent trilogy, a consistent story with itself.

    I don't think we could have a consistent trilogy direct by three (or two) complete different directors.
    I challenged you to find a good/consistent trilogy that was direct by more than one director.
    I'll make some examples from the most famous trilogy of all.

    Back To the Future
    Lord of the Rings*
    Jurassic Park*
    Indiana Jones
    Die Hard*
    Alien
    Terminator

    New Question: Beside Star Wars, what is your favorite trilogy?
    --- Double Post Merged, Oct 29, 2021, Original Post Date: Oct 29, 2021 ---
    Well... I think that tecnically tRoS is a fanfiction. Not a good one, but definetely not a real movie.
    [​IMG]

    I mean.... is this is not fanfiction I have no idea what it is, literally no frigging idea.

    [​IMG] [​IMG]

    I don't know if someone like this or not, to me this are the stupidiest lines of the entire saga, they seems write be two kids who play with toys.
    KID #1: I'm all the Sith!
    KID #2: I'm all the Jedi!
    Oh, come on! Is this your idea of epic?

    And I know: they don't even "written" those lines, they copied them from the MCU.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    And it's even more stupid, because they don't realize why in the MCU those lines are so epic, why are so effective: they mean something, they referrence something, are not just quip lines.
     
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  13. Messi

    Messi G.O.A.T.

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    I said that the prequels are not good movies and were directed and written by the same person. Same to The Hobbit and Matrix, as trilogy I didn't like it at all. In both case I only like the first movie.

    So, even if the trilogy was directed by the same director its not a guarantee that the movies are good, or if it works as a trilogy.

    To me the sequels feel as a duology (TFA and TLJ) + a good stand alone movie that feels off of the story told by the two previous.
     
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  14. madcatwoman17

    madcatwoman17 Clone Commander

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    For all their 'sins' the prequels had a strong story which sadly was something TROS lacked.
     
  15. Obi5Kenobi

    Obi5Kenobi Rebel Official

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    Reading through these comments, it occurred to me how many times JJ brought someone back from the dead in TROS:

    Palpatine out of nowhere
    Chewie's transport was blown up, but it was actually a different one
    Threepio got his mind erased, but got it back later
    Kylo Ren was dying but Rey healed him
    Rey died, but Ben brought her back

    I think he went to the well too many times with that idea in the movie.
     
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  16. Messi

    Messi G.O.A.T.

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    And this was probably the most interesting idea that I saw in TROS.
    The feeling to have lost Chewie by the hands of Rey really made me feel sad and confused (and that's a positive thing).
    Of course that minutes later everything was explained.
     
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  17. MandoChip

    MandoChip Hate me later. Work now.
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    JJ was driving the bus...
     
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  18. madcatwoman17

    madcatwoman17 Clone Commander

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    Have to admit, I enjoyed scene one very much! ;)
    But I did read somewhere it was a last minute inclusion from Disney to cheer up reylos for killing off our favourite character (newsflash Disney - it didn't work) and that Abrams himself was against it.

    As for scene number two...I cringed with embarrassment at that scene, along with much of the film, and everyone I know who's seen Avengers Infinity War is comparing the TROS scene to it and finding it very wanting.

    I don't know what Abrams was thinking - but I do know that Terrio said he wanted to make the film his eight year old self would have liked to have seen. Problem is, his eight year old self wasn't the one paying admission fees.:confused:
     
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  19. Dryden Valiance

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    :D:D:D

    I'll probably enjoyed this movie is I was 8 years old, I really enjoyed The Phantom Menace when I was 10.
    Darth Maul is still one of my favorite characters today (even if he probably just say to line in the entire movie).

    But when you grew up you start to see all the "cracks". I can't enjoy tRoS as a movie, every 10 minutes there are a scene that reminds me how insane and convolute the story is.

    [​IMG]
    I'm sure for anyone who didn't like TLJ was satysfying.
    But it's not a movie scene, it's bad retcon or a ridicoulus fanservice.
    Luke threw it in TLJ, does TLJ exist in this timeline? Or was Luke actually Duke (his moping twin) in episode VIII?
    Is Star Wars turn into a soap opera?

    Which only makes sense if you don't stop for 10 seconds to think about it, and then it gets absurd almost like a joke.
    [​IMG]

    Hux is the mole, to be killed 30 seconds later. Chewbacca's fake death, to be revealed 60 seconds after. Palpatine's return in the opening crawl and Poe's line: "Somehow, Palpatine returned" which is a poor line but somehow also hilarious ... yes "Somehow", this is the best explanation we come up with.

    In the end I think tRoS doesn't work there are too many things that "wake me up", scenes that broke my willing "suspension of disbelief". If it's works for somebody else I'm glad it did. Overall I don't think it's the worst movie of the sage, but it's my least favorite.
     
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  20. madcatwoman17

    madcatwoman17 Clone Commander

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    This is one of the most annoying things about the film; the way it kept giving these fake 'Oh no - they killed Kenny!' moments.

    I would have liked it if Rey really had killed Chewie then - it would have shown her truly 'fighting the dark' in her efforts to cope with the aftermath. But no, of course they won't do that with lil' Rey - she is far too noble, far too good, far too awesome!
    Rian Johnson did his best to show some aspects of her that the Jedi would not approve of - her bouts of anger, the relish she showed shooting down TIE fighters - 'Ooooh I'm really getting the hang of this!' But all of that was thrown away for TROS. Rey 'kills' Chewie... but it's okay, he wasn't on that transport. Rey stabs an unarmed man in the stomach....but somewhere between TLJ and TROS she gained amazing healing powers. Rey is shown looking longingly at a group of kids as if she wants children...and is even given a fertility necklace...but at the end commits to the life of a Jedi; no hubby, no kids, eternal virginity, as signified by her pure white clothing.
    As if it would somehow demean her to have a husband and children, make her less of a 'strong woman'.
    Someone should have told Lady Jessica in Dune....:cool:
     
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