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Did JJ Throw Himself Under a Bus?

Discussion in 'General Sequel Trilogy Discussion' started by SegNerd, Apr 15, 2020.

  1. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    There may have been some... hand holding... cut out :p
     
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  2. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    Star Wars did get the auteur treatment.
    It was called The Last Jedi and people threw temper-tantrums that are STILL going on

    Oh and the PT is pretty much as auteur as it gets and obviously ANH
     
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  3. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    True, but I'm sure even Rian had significant oversight (no matter how much the neckbeards claim he had absolutely no oversight in his decisions for the trilogy).
     
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  4. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    <cough cough> Stormpilot <cough cough>
     
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  5. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    Sure but there's no way you could watch TLJ and not see it as a Rian Johnson movie, I'd say the same thing about GOTG (1 and 2) in the MCU. They are unmistakably James Gunn.

    Even in the DCEU, Man of Steel and BvS are so Snyder it hurts. They are auteur big budget films. Not good ones mind you (IMO), but they are.

    Even Michael Bay's movie are auteur visions. From the colors, to the stylized shooting of scenes, the dialogue and a few other Bay traits I don't want to get into....they are clearly his visions.
     
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  6. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    Heck, TROS (whatever its reception) has JJ's fingerprints all over it.
     
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  7. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    I think there's enough studio mandates and Terrio-isms in it, it's a group effort but if you said TFA....I would agree wholeheartedly.
     
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  8. The Last Jorgny

    The Last Jorgny Rebel Official

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    It's almost wierd how much it feels like an RJ film. I was a fan of his before the movie came out, and expected it to feel "removed" from his style in order to be like a Star Wars movie, but it didn't. I Think TFA and TROS are pretty distinguisable as JJ movies as well, and I haven't even seen that much of his other stuff (mainly Star Trek 2009).
     
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  9. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    Aesthetically and mystery boxy-stuff is definitely all JJ in TROS but the overly stuffed plot and new characters for no real reason is 100% Terrio. The similarities between Justice League, BvS and TROS is kinda scary
     
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  10. Kraven Head

    Kraven Head Rebelscum

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    Sometimes I really hate Google. Why did I do that....!
     
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  11. DEKKA129

    DEKKA129 Professional Slinger of Balderdash

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    Personally, I think what really backed JJ into a corner (shot him in the foot, drank his milkshake, flogged his floogle, yaddayadda) was Carrie Fisher's death and LFL/Disney's apparent insistence on adhering as closely as possible to their previously set release date.

    With Carrie gone, there was really no satisfying way of reworking Trevorrow's story (which, IMHO, was just as well because as much as I like some of the elements in it, it was largely a riff on Lucas' first ROTJ draft.) And by the time they dropped Trevorrow and hired JJ to essentially start again from square one, there was just over 2 years to go before the film was supposed to be released.

    I had a lot higher hopes for Episode 9 too, but circumstances dictated that the entire thing ended up being a rush job, the script, the production, all of it.
     
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  12. Trev

    Trev Rebel Official

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    Yeah, unfortunately, I really think Carrie’s death screwed them over big time. Regardless, I personally felt like Trevorrow’s script didn’t utilize Leia to her full potential, and I think J.J. did the absolute best job he could in honoring the character and actress, and the legacy they both left behind. But I do think a lot of the pacing and other issues in the film can be largely attributed to having to start from scratch with a shorter timespan and the expectation that the film would still be released in 2019.

    We can all criticize J.J. until we’re blue in the face –– and as much as I like him, I’ll be the first to admit that he’s to blame for some of this trilogy’s biggest faults –– but I think he did the best job he could with what he was given. Trying to wrap up a trilogy that also concludes the entire Skywalker Saga, and doing it without Carrie Fisher, is pretty much the most daunting task you could possibly take on, and I give him so much credit for tackling it as gracefully as he did.
     
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  13. Rogues1138

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    I watched the Rise of Skywalker 4 times in the theater and I own a copy but I have to sadly say its the first Star Wars film that I really have major problems with. I'm not going to outline them here... its the first Star Wars film that I turned off after the first act. I didn't feel like watching the rest and I love Star Wars. I even stopped coming to these boards for a while. all I have to say I really like the Mandalorian. Looking forward to season 2. I hope the next Star Wars film is really good. I'm going to read the Rise of Skywalker novelization maybe I'll change my mind... I don't know if anyone else will agree but Chewie was running kind of dopey right before he got captured... something about Chewie is awkward. This is no slight to the new actor that plays him... and Palpatine coming back... cool but ugh
     
    #93 Rogues1138, Jun 8, 2020
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  14. Flyboy

    Flyboy Force Attuned

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    My quick answer to the question is no, but it's really not that simple.

    I don't really think it's fair to say that JJ doesn't care as much about story as George did, but at the same time, nobody should be thinking that JJ could understand or love Star Wars more than the man that created it (and I've often said George himself didn't understand a lot of it because he created something that, intentionally or not, could never be fully understood). From the moment JJ was brought back on, he talked about how important it was to not only wrap up the trilogy in a satisfying way but also the entire saga, and while we'll probably never know for sure, I think he (and Terrio, KK, etc.) felt immense pressure in attempting to do that. Are there a lot of things revealed in TROS that seem to come out of nowhere? Sure. But George did the same thing. There are things revealed in ESB and ROTJ that weren't even slightly hinted at in ANH and there are things in the prequels that straight up contradict things said in the OT. When you're telling an evolving story, you're allowed to change things. There's a pretty big part of me that feels a lot of the backlash for JJ's decisions simply stem from the fact that it isn't George making them, or that there's this misconception that George wouldn't have made them, but nobody can definitively say that.

    "It's like poetry, it rhymes" are the words from George and I think JJ tried to follow and accomplish that. Now that I've had 6 months to sit with the film and the chance to watch it at home, I can honestly say I don't have a single problem with any of the decisions made. As a man who once frequented this forum used to say, "It ain't my story to tell". My issue is in the execution. Whenever George (at least in the OT... the PT... not always) introduced a major new story point like Vader being Luke's father or Luke and Leia being siblings... it just worked, it worked on such a level that it created some of the most iconic moments in the history of film. When JJ tried to do it in this film... it just didn't work. It fell flat.
     
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  15. DEKKA129

    DEKKA129 Professional Slinger of Balderdash

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    Good point. One thing that I felt was often lacking in JJ's SW films was the special attention to the weightier emotional moments that Lucas always at least seemed to try to pay. (As you say, it generally worked in the OT, but in the PT not always so much.)

    In TROS, the big one was Ren's reveal to Rey that she's the Emperor's granddaughter. Rey's immediate reaction just doesn't sell the gravity of that reveal the way it needs to. Not even close. I put that on JJ. Daisy would have given him any reaction he asked her for, and I'm sure she would have nailed it if he'd asked her to show us the ground suddenly falling out from under Rey when she learns that horrible truth. But that didn't happen, and it leaves a pivotal moment floating there rather empty.

    Another thing that always bothered me from TFA is that final moment between Han and Chewie before they split up to set the charges on Starkiller Base. Star Wars being Star Wars, that moment needed to be marked with one final wisecrack from Han. I always feel like Han needed to turn back and say something like, "Oh hey, and Chewie... [grin] Try not to get shot again, willya?"

    It's little touches like that which I feel like JJ tends to miss in his rush to tell the broad strokes of his stories. He doesn't always give the most important moments enough attention. And Star Wars is the kind of story that needs those moments to land in that certain emotional way, even if it feels melodramatic and obvious.
     
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  16. Ghost of Obi Wan Kenobi

    Ghost of Obi Wan Kenobi Rebel Official

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    JJ Abrams is excellent at starting franchises and thought-provoking stories. But to this day, I have never seen him successfully FINISH one.
     
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  17. madcatwoman17

    madcatwoman17 Clone Commander

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    I can't go into detail regarding TROS because I absolutely hated it - and not just because they killed off Kylo - but I did notice that Abrams was not just retconning TLJ but also TFA.
    Kylo sensed that Finn was conflicted after the Tuanol killings, and spared him because he recognised a 'kindred' spirit - he assumed he'd eventually come around just as he was trying to do. But if Finn was FS....then why didn't Kylo sense it then? He was an extremely powerful FS, even if Finn was only mildly FS, he would have sensed it.
    As I've said elsewhere, it was pointed out repeatedly that neither Snoke or Kylo were Sith - then they revealed Snoke was a disguised Darth Sidious aka Palpatine.
    Terrio said making Rey Palpatine take on the name Skywalker showed that blood didn't matter, and you could choose who you wanted to be. Yet in TFA Lor San Tekka made a point of telling Kylo that 'he couldn't deny the truth that was his family'. So, either blood only mattered if your family was no good - or Abrams changed his mind post TFA.

    I still find it hard to believe that so called 'professionals' either forgot parts of the first film's plots when making TROS or chose to ignore them.
     
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  18. Martoto

    Martoto Rebel Official

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    If the "bus" is the fans' desire and efforts to be ahead of the curve and in the loop regarding the story, and their spurious criteria and specious arguments for how a trilogy must be planned and developed, then, yeah sure. Chucked himself right under it so he did. Doubt he felt it though.
     
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  19. madcatwoman17

    madcatwoman17 Clone Commander

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    I can't help but think Abrams seems to have a track record for destroying beloved franchises!
    He killed off the 'original' Star Trek and brought in new versions - and this from one of the few people who liked Into Darkness. Now he has done exactly the same with Star Wars.
    He's killed off Han, Luke and Ben Solo. In Carrie's case we don't know what Leia's fate would have been; Carrie's untimely death dictated what would happen to Leia.:(
    Ben of course was a 'new' character, but tied to the OT characters by his bloodline.
    Abrams has replaced the entire OT cast with Rey. She is FS - like Luke. A Princess - like Leia. And..a top pilot and mechanic - like Han. Any other character, including Poe and Finn, was placed firmly in the background. I read recently that there originally was a shot of Anakin's podracer flag in the courtyard of Maz's castle but Abrams wanted it removed so he could 'focus on the new characters.'
    As a result, he has completely changed the way a lot of us will now view the entire saga from the PT to the ST. If you like Rey it'll be fine. But for me, whose love of SW was bound firmly with the Skywalkers and Solos, he's ripped the heart and soul from it. I loved those films but I don't think I'll ever watch them again now I know the fate of the original characters. While Ben lived, I was okay with it as they'd live on in their grandchildren, but I just can't accept the last Palpatine as the new Skywalker.
     
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  20. Martoto

    Martoto Rebel Official

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    What do you mean by that? How did he "kill" "original" Star Trek? By not making Star Trek VIII with the original cast. (Deforest Kelley 1920-1999, Jimmy Doohan 1920-2005. R.I.P.)

    I'm pretty sure that he actually successfully rebooted the original Star Trek with the original characters, new cast, and a new timeline to explore different stories and/or different takes on stories that played out in the original timeline. In the wake of those three films' success there's been two new successful Star Trek series.
    A fourth Star Trek film in the rebooted TOS movie franchise is in preproduction.
     
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