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Did JJ Throw Himself Under a Bus?

Discussion in 'General Sequel Trilogy Discussion' started by SegNerd, Apr 15, 2020.

  1. Martoto

    Martoto Rebel Official

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    I was meaning which leaks was it that made them think JJ threw himself under the bus.
     
  2. Flyboy

    Flyboy Force Attuned

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    None of that changes the fact that in the first movie, Obi-Wan tells Luke that Vader killed his father, in the next movie Vader tells Luke that he is his father and then in the final movie Obi-Wan, perhaps the noblest man in the entire galaxy has to basically say, "Yeah I know I lied but I also kinda didn't lie if you REALLY think about it."

    I don't really care about retconning so long as it doesn't go completely haywire but there's nothing nearly that egregious in the ST/TROS. Just imagine something like that today, the shambles would be unlike anything we've ever seen before.
     
    #122 Flyboy, Sep 30, 2021
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2021
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  3. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    Luckily, not all writers are like Abed from Community:


    What I mean is this: It's okay for a series to change over time if the characters change with it. We don't need to see a trilogy of two and a half hour movies in which the characters just make a series of logical events streaming from one encounter to the other (though that's treading close to TROS's ground, I suppose). Instead, it's more interesting to see characters learn, grow. And even then, the films' messaging can adapt to what the characters learn.

    If Luke tosses the saber over his shoulder in TLJ and catches it in the next film, is that a retcon? Or is it emblematic of his own journey in TLJ as Rian already portrayed it?

    How about Lor San Tekka, and Kylo Ren's bloodline? Is the line "you cannot avoid the truth that is your family" (or whatever he said exactly) meaningful, or does the ST subvert the line of family? Or, does it instead explore the ideas of family, legacy, inheritance, and destiny?

    I'm not saying the ST is necessarily a masterpiece in how it executes these objectives. Far from it, in my opinion. But I think our own conversations about it can expand beyond a TV Tropes-esque dialogue of trying to put bigger Star Wars ideas into tiny boxes.
     
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  4. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Coramoor

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    Good stuff, too much of the conversations around Star Wars is far too heated. Marvel doesn't seem to have as big of a problem with that, but some of that is due to Star Wars characters that have been around 40 years. People care very deeply about characters like Luke (maybe too much). For example, I like Infinity War/Endgame more than TROS, but while those Marvel films are crowd pleasers they shared some logical issues that I was willing to overlook because it was fun. With more and more Star Wars content coming out people will likely start being less outraged about things they don't like. There's too much content out there to enjoy to spend time complaining about things I don't like all the time.
     
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  5. p03

    p03 Human/Cyborg Relations

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    There were plenty of fake leaks before the big reddit drop. You know 100% 'Black Diamond' was all about Ben Solo which quite equally engage with Rey Palpatine. The film was supposed to be like The Return of The King, which was codswallop. Matt Smith been the big bad and someone on reddit said someone went to museum. Just go to the rumours and speculation thread for TROS. Complete utter garbage especially from one side of the fandom. Talk about mental gymnastics;

    https://thecantina.starwarsnewsnet....ise-of-skywalker-news-and-rumors-thread.7352/
     
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  6. madcatwoman17

    madcatwoman17 Clone Commander

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    Thanks for posting that , couldn't find it myself.

    You know...surely DLF must have discovered the 'leak' and people's dissatisfaction with it, if they kept reshooting....why didn't they alter the film before it was released?
     
  7. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    Sure, even Marvel has these issues, though Star Wars definitely seems more intense with it. Recently, for instance, with
    fans apparently upset with how easily Ultron dispatched of Thanos
    .

    I've always adored Stan Lee's answer to this:

    I think fans spend a lot of time running hypothetical scenarios in their heads because... hey, that's fun! I get it, I do it too! But ultimately, pop culture is an art, not a science. I can assure you that whatever idea someone might have of Luke's power level or Ant Man's ability to fly into certain crevices is much more dependent on whether or not the story should be told rather than whether it's possible- because after all, we want to be surprised when we see these things, to some degree at least.
     
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  8. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Coramoor

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    Couple of things to note... people complaining online is nothing new. A film project shouldn't be making changes based on what some unmeasurable mob thinks. Most of the "I hate this" crowd were people who were prepared to hate anything. Also, there's only so many changes you can made in post-production. The timeline was so short for this film they were editing while in production.

    A bigger issue to me were the number of leaks. The problem with working with Bad Robot was too much information got out. That hasn't been an issue on other Lucasfilm projects.
     
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  9. madcatwoman17

    madcatwoman17 Clone Commander

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    I'm autistic, and we tend to take things a bit too much to heart, so I can understand some fans' attitudes. I'm permanently 'off' SW since Ben Solo was killed off, but it's purely for personal reasons - he was the 'last' Skywalker and as I've already said, they (and Han) were SW for me; and I genuinely loved the character, far more than the heroes! SW was also a comfort to me during school years that were most definitely not the 'best of my life', so I'm left feeling pretty gutted that something I've enjoyed for so long no longer has any appeal for me.

    But you have to draw a line between fantasy and reality. I was perma banned from another forum for twice mentioning Kylo/Ben in another character's thread, and I have seen - and to be candid, sometimes taken part in - heated arguments on that particular forum between fans of different characters. At the end of the day it's sheer fantasy escapism, fiction can be inspiring, or at least make you think, but when people start making unpleasant accusations against others because of what fictional character they like, and what fictional romance they 'ship' it's going too far. We all need to keep things in perspective.
     
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  10. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Coramoor

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    Always important to remember that we never know what other people are going through every day. Just because something is fiction doesn't mean it's not important to someone. I feel emotion over sporting events and films. I know, logically, it doesn't really matter, but we still feel these things. I know as I've gotten older I've let go of worrying about what other people like. Let people like what they want as long as they're not hurting anyone.
     
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  11. madcatwoman17

    madcatwoman17 Clone Commander

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    Absolutely. I'll be honest...Abrams and Terrio broke my heart by killing off the Skywalker bloodline, and most of all Ben Solo, as he was my favourite character. I know they said the ending was 'hopeful and satisfying', but unfortunately not for Ben/Kylo fans. SW always was uplifting but now all I think is that the Skywalkers are all dead and Palpatine's descendant is the last one standing. This is fine for Rey/Finn/Poe fans but I am not keen on those characters much, so it wasn't hopeful for me.

    But I would NEVER send Abrams and co. death threats. The best way to deal with something like this is to never give the company your money again, not resorting to threats of violence.

    And I'm sorry...but just because I'm not a fan of the Finn character doesn't mean I'm a racist, as someone on another forum accused me of. I actually found that both insulting and hurtful.
     
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  12. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Coramoor

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    Maybe it's the American in me, but I'm kind of anti-Force monarchy. Rey isn't really a Palpatine in the same way Ben was a Skywalker. She's the daughter of a clone version of Palpatine. It's such a bizarre backstory I'm not sure why they even bothered. She's as much of Palpatine as Rex is a Fett.
     
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  13. p03

    p03 Human/Cyborg Relations

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    Hey am autistic too and suffer desperately bad with depression, shared it plenty of times on here. Like I mentioned my best friend killed herself. I love Rey / Daisy Ridley. I was so happy she was picked up to be the star of the sequel trilogy. The protagonist of the sequel trilogy was always going to be female even back as the days when Rey was twinky. Not going to lie, especially through TLJ, all we got was Adam Driver this Ben Solo that. Then after TRoS. We have bullies saying they get annoyed at Daisy Ridley smiling, wanting to slap her, can't stand her comments, it should have been Adam, JJ only cared about Finn and Rey. Told a thousands of times I should be forced to like Ben Solo because of his blood line and also care the bad guys feelings.

    Yeah not the greatest films, it ain't the greatest movie. The Palpatine angle could have worked if introduced earlier but I thought it a blast. I still love Rey I collect her, I have all her action figures. (I guess that's part of my autism too).

    Sometimes my autism may make me seem a bit big headed but you know after all that and knowing full well that Rey Skywalker was on the cards, yeah I did have a victory dance. Still not at all happy with TLJ. But who cares, lol.

    Oh and don't get me started on The Fandom Menace, Zeroh, SW Theory. Nothing good ever comes from them, just poison.
     
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  14. madcatwoman17

    madcatwoman17 Clone Commander

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    The JCF are even worse.
     
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  15. Rogues1138

    Rogues1138 Crazy Old Wizard
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    I still visit now and then to be honest, but it's not as engaging as this forum. I finally found a home. :D





    After several years at JCF( early 1990's), I swiftly got banned, not even a temp ban, no warnings at all... that was cold. (emperor)

    I was a Gusher (defend Star Wars content) during the Gusher vs. Basher Wars or better yet during the PT release years.

    Now I'm seeing the same sort of thing with the ST. I wonder how fandom will view the ST in about 10 years from now.

    As you mentioned before, @madcatwoman17 TESB wasn't everyone's favorite when first released but now it is. Btw, ANH is my favorite. Films and art are subjective.
     
    #135 Rogues1138, Oct 3, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2021
  16. madcatwoman17

    madcatwoman17 Clone Commander

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    Yes, I still visit, largely because some posters have interesting links, and yes, I much prefer this forum - you also have a disagree button so can register your opinion without resorting to flinging insults.

    I got banned pretty quickly myself, but I'd like to say this - anyone who loves the Kylo/Ben character will NOT get a warm welcome on the JCF forums. I honestly have never seen a character so hated on a forum as he is on there. The fans of Finn are particularly venomous, as they believe that John Boyega was robbed of his roles as male lead and Rey's love interest by Kylo. Some of their loathing has leaked onto Adam Driver as well. The fact is, whatever their anger at how their fave character was treated is nothing to do with Driver - he's simply an actor who plays a character, not the writer or director.

    Even worse, is anyone who was a 'reylo' fan - I was, until TROS. You are accused of supporting a 'ship' that apparently promotes the abuse of women, and also, as one person told me, 'putting the white character in front of the Black male lead'.

    I was genuinely stunned at the things I was accused of, and I now am extremely thankful they banned me, as the environment is far too toxic. I've also noticed other posters are leaving pretty quickly, even those who aren't Kylo fans. I understand how passionate we SW fans can get - but there is a difference between disliking someone else's favourite character, and accusing them of racism and supporting the abuse of women - these are serious real life issues and amount to libel.:(:eek:
     
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  17. NinjaRen

    NinjaRen Supreme Leader

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    This is a myth. There was never hate or dislike for TESB. Yes, some ciritics and fans were disappointed (as for every single movie), but most viewers loved it.
     
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  18. madcatwoman17

    madcatwoman17 Clone Commander

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    Fact is, you can't please everyone.

    Personal likes and dislikes aside, my biggest disappointment in TROS is that it's terribly made, from story, to dialogue to editing. The cast do their best, but it's an incoherent mess. What really gets me are the 'fake cliffhangers' - we are told Threepio will forever lose who he is, but he's fine two minutes later after a reboot. Rey is supposedly horrified at stabbing an unarmed Kylo while he's grieving for his mother. But she's fine after a five minute pep talk with Luke, who she never had any kind of relationship with. Most of all...Chewie's death.
    Oh dear...just where did that other transport ship come from? Come to think of it, where did the other Wayfinder come from either?:p
     
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  19. Use the Falchion

    Use the Falchion Jedi Contrarian

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    Ha! Same...

    Ah, the Praxis Leaks! Weirdly those were the second-biggest leaks to happen that year to me. (The first were the Fire Emblem Three Houses Thanibomb leaks.) Both turned out to be true, although YMMV on whether or not that was a good thing in either case.

    Too true. I also think having post-ST material will really help here. Not liking Thor 2 isn't fixed by Cap 2 or Guardians of the Galaxy entirely (although those prove it's a character problem and not a MCU problem), it's fixed by Thor 3 coming out and proving that the character can indeed work. Didn't like Age of Ultron? Civil War, Infinity War, and Endgame help you move forward. DC is similar in some cases. You didn't like Suicide Squad (GOOD, NO ONE SHOULD LIKE IT)? The next one is better and has a mostly new cast. You didn't like the 2017 Justice League? Here's Aquaman's adventure that takes place after that story, and here's Shazam. It's like being able to watch a good movie/play a good game/eat a great meal after a bad day at work. But if you do all that before the bad day, and then at the end of the bad day there's only more work...well, it doesn't make you motivated to come back...

    Now all three have gone back in some way, shape, or form in order to deliver on something overdue, and they're obviously all far from perfect.
     
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  20. Martoto

    Martoto Rebel Official

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    The JCF's purpose since the beginning seems to have been to divide fans. They discourage anything constructive, or anything outside their definition of constructive, which is "EVERYBODY knows that this sucks and the people who made it along with those who like or defend it are r*******, so my suggestion and what they obviously should have done is....".
    --- Double Post Merged, Oct 5, 2021, Original Post Date: Oct 5, 2021 ---
    If Empire was released today, those fans who were blindsided or disappointed by it would have been making sure the narrative (online of course) was about how divided people were over it, no matter how generally successful and critically well received it otherwise was. Sound familiar? At the time Empire was released there was no prequel trilogy for people to bizarrely claim had been almost completely rehabilitated in the eyes of the general public when compared with this new "failure".
    --- Double Post Merged, Oct 5, 2021 ---
    Completely misses the point of the scene, which is that Threepio knew the risks, and was the most vocal about them, but his friends ultimately gave him the choice, even thought the fate of the galaxy hung in the balance.
     
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