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Did JJ Throw Himself Under a Bus?

Discussion in 'General Sequel Trilogy Discussion' started by SegNerd, Apr 15, 2020.

  1. madcatwoman17

    madcatwoman17 Clone Commander

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    There is a poster in the JFC that actually scares me, daft though it seems. We've crossed verbal swords a LOT, but I've noticed since I've been banned she's now venting her spleen on other posters. She is a die hard Finn fan, which is fine - I'm a die hard Ben/Kylo fan - but she has several times accused me of racism because she believes John Boyega was meant to be male lead and that Adam Driver 'stole' what was rightfully his.

    Okay, we get pretty passionate sometimes - I'm not arguing that - but I really don't think it's fair that someone is seen as a card carrying white supremacist just because their favourite movie character isn't a POC. My favourite character in Independence Day was played by Will Smith. I've also been trolled by this individual because I took objection to a few things Boyega said on twitter post TROS, which caused me to lose a lot of my respect for him as a person, but it was what he said, not his ethnicity. Post my banning her comments are getting to the point no one can say a single derogative thing about the Finn character without her blasting them with insults and accusations - she even said a few nasty things to a black poster because he liked the way Finn was sometimes played for laughs.

    Thing is, she has a strong supporter on there who's a mod, and therefore so far hasn't been cautioned or remonstrated with. This same mod told me off for being a (former) reylo because she thinks it's akin to spousal abuse.
    God, I am so very glad I'm off there.
     
  2. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    I agree that that’s the intent of the scene: the normally cowardly robot, knowingly making a brave sacrifice – ‘wow, what a moment’, and all that. But the sequence is entirely predicated on 3PO NOT knowing the risks. Or, rather, deliberately misrepresenting them.

    FINN: Doesn't Artoo back up your memory?
    C-3PO: Oh, please. Artoo's storage units are famously unreliable.

    First off, when has anything concerning R2 friggin’ D2 ever been presented as “unreliable”? Let alone, “famously” so? The little trashcan is the property’s MVP. If there’s one certainty in all of Star Wars, it’s that R2 will always come through for you when you need him to.

    But specifically his “storage units”? Isn’t the exceptional reliability of his storage units the whole reason the story of TFA has a positive resolution? He just miraculously has the rest of the map to Luke they needed in his “storage units”. 3PO was right there for that. And while 3PO isn’t privy to this event in TLJ, we the audience saw that the little guy still had that recording Leia made for Obi-Wan - decades later. That’s pretty damned reliable.

    So the concerns he has then, that serve to raise the stakes for the dilemma and manufacture that heroism, are demonstratively unfounded. They were actually undercut in the scene itself. Basically, the 3PO character is just being melodramatic. Which is totally consistent with his characterization, but the film itself is weirdly endorsing it. ‘You’re right, 3PO. This IS a big deal. Even though we’ve already established how it could easily be reversed later on’.

    So are his “friends” truly allowing him to make the choice, or are they just waiting for drama queen 3PO to finish his perfunctory grandstanding before he ultimately agrees to do what they went to Kijimi to do in the first place?

    For me, it’s a massive disconnect between intended result and actual result. But it apparently worked for a lot of other folks, so I’m probably the one in the wrong here.
     
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  3. Martoto

    Martoto Rebel Official

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    Whenever Threepio says so. In every movie. He also says the opposite though, of course.

    I think people put too much on the scene anyway. Threepio being stuck in safe mode for ever is not a thing that really matters in the grand scale of things. They could have milked it and tugged at the audience's heart strings with Threepio deactivated until R2 revives him. But they immediately had fun with it.

    I don't understand where people got the impression that the movie was relying on this for high drama. I mean, we saw Threepio blasted to pieces in the second Star Wars movie released, only for him to be speaking minutes later. Why should a firmware update be such a big deal?

    His friends haven't been watching the entire saga by the way. They don't know about all those moments that the audience has seen before. Poe had previously been just as disrespectful of his stuffiness as Han ever was. So this "humane" moment between him and his friends (when was Threepio ever considered a friend of the heroes in the previous 8 movies?) is significant for Threepio.
     
  4. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    Probably the presentation. The mood set in the scene is purposely somber and weighted, which generally connotes an atmosphere of great meaning and reverence. 3PO delivers what’s effectively a tearful farewell, “taking one last look”.

    The droid D-O, voiced by the director himself, outright tells us how we’re supposed to feel in that moment: “sad”. It’s a comically overdramatic set piece that doesn’t appear to be aware of how comically overdramatic it is for the circumstance.
    Which wasn’t anything the film was overtly reverential about. There was shock in the action, but it wasn’t contingent on the character contemplating his own existence. 3PO, in TROS, is having to weigh his own identity and sense-of-self against the wellbeing of trillions on the basis that the sacrifice is most probably irreversible. It would be a sort of death. A freely accepted death. That’s the presentation.

    But, logically, the character himself would know that’s inaccurate. And we too would logically know that’s inaccurate. But the scene treats the situation as if it isn’t. It’s earnestly trying to evoke an empathetic emotional reaction of sorrow tinged pride. I just don’t feel it operates on its own terms and is emblematic of the underline shortcomings in the film as a whole.
    Significant in that he considers these characters his friends? Characters we’ve seen him have little to no interaction with until this movie? Yes, I imagine that was intended to be significant. And, in a vacuum, certainly gives the impression of importance. But in actuality, isn’t very.

    I’m sure this team has had loads of implied adventures between episodes. But from our perspective, they barely know each other. Finn and Rey never said a word to him before TROS and Poe got him unwittingly involved in a mutiny last we saw. This isn’t a crew that’s been through thick and thin together as far as we’ve seen. They’re casual acquaintances at best. But for the sake of the drama, they’re “friends” now.

    People too eagerly toss about the term ‘unearned’ in my opinion. But, boy oh boy, is that moment ever unearned.
     
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  5. madcatwoman17

    madcatwoman17 Clone Commander

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    Post TROS Disney are curiously backtracking on some of what happened in the film.

    A number of people wanted to know why Rey, post her battle with Palps, didn't 'fade into the Force when she died'. Their response was:
    'She wasn't really dead.'
    Abrams claimed that her kiss with Ben 'wasn't romantic'. When people pointed out why did she kiss him then, the response was:
    'She was grateful, it was a kiss of gratitude.'

    No wonder the film had a lot of people confused; even its makers couldn't make their mind up about what was happening!!:D
     
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  6. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    It turns out she was only MOSTLY dead :D
     
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  7. Flying spaghetti monster

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    The Rise Of Skywalker just made it clear they were making it up as they went. More evident they looked at criticism through a microscope. Tfa was a reaction to the criticism the prequels weren't "star warsy", tlj was a reaction that tfa was too derivative. Tros tried to please everyone and pleased no one. They tried to please the OT fans, new fans and reyloers, but failed big time. They should have taken the time to make a well thought out trilogy and stuck with it.
    Granted they couldn't wait too long, because the original actors were dying off. It shouldn't take 20 years to make a well thought out trilogy. *cough* George Lucas *cough*.
     
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  8. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Coramoor

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    I agree that Disney used TFA to steer away from the prequels. It's a safe movie. It's also a big reason it was so successful. TFA was the most fun Star Wars film since the OT.

    I'm going to keep pointing this out until fans quit saying it, but TLJ was written and a scene already filmed before TFA was released. It wasn't a reaction to criticism. JJ pitched his story for TROS right when TLJ was released. I know people want to pit these films against each other, but I really don't think "what are fans talking about" were driving factors for TLJ/TROS based on the production timeline.
     
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  9. Flying spaghetti monster

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    Well there's no method to the madness then. The sequels were just all over the place. If it were due to criticism I could understand that. It was definitely made up on the fly. There were no hints to Palpatine, he just somehow came back. If it wasn't made up on the fly it was terrible story telling. The story or lack thereof was poorly written. That's a shame because I wanted to like it and I defended it, saying wait for the final movie, it'll make sense. I Liked a lot of parts from all three movies but as a trilogy it is horrendous.
     
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  10. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Coramoor

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    Disney got the film they rushed to produce. Disney picked a fine person to start the trilogy they wanted to make. JJ put together a great cast and a fun story. Disney hired a great upcoming director in Rian Johnson who produced a fantastic story with no production drama. Then Carrie died. This is where the wheels came off. Trevorrow couldn't get the story to work without her. Disney wouldn't budge on their timeline more than six months so they brought back JJ for what I think was a very difficult task. I'm not sure many directors could step in with that time line and produce something much better. As a final film of a trilogy it's weak, but it's far from horrendous mostly because the cast is great. A cast with good chemistry can overcome a lot of brainless plot. Marvel has been getting away with that for a long time.

    When Lucasfilm produces more films the stink for the last one will wear off.
     
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  11. Martoto

    Martoto Rebel Official

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    TROS's ideas and intent are sound. It's the plot that is poor. Needed another year and another two drafts to find the essence of what needed done before production.
     
    #151 Martoto, Oct 6, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2021
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  12. madcatwoman17

    madcatwoman17 Clone Commander

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    I think that they might originally have had some good ideas, but for reasons unknown repeatedly reshot, re edited and eventually came out with an incoherent mess.
     
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  13. Flying spaghetti monster

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    I wish I could like comments.
    Disney bought Star Wars, and they had to do something quick to please investors and to keep interest alive, so they decided to make a sequel trilogy right off the bat. I agree that was good, but they rushed the #$^$ out of it and didn't take the proper time it really needed. I'm pretty disappointed. I don't hate the ST but come up with a decent plan first. You're not George lucas you cant make it up as you go. The ST could have been the first Trilogy that wasn't either made up as it went or had a predetermined outcome. But no they phoned it in.
     
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  14. madcatwoman17

    madcatwoman17 Clone Commander

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    You know....I would have LOVED to see a SW trilogy written and directed by Peter Jackson.
    Lord of the Lightsabres....:p(lightsaber)
     
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  15. StardustSoldier

    StardustSoldier Force Sensitive

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    That would have been pretty cool. He's a great director, and I'm already a LotR fan as it is.
     
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  16. Martoto

    Martoto Rebel Official

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    I'm not a PJ hater, but I've been bored half the time watching anything he made since LOTR.
     
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  17. madcatwoman17

    madcatwoman17 Clone Commander

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    I liked King Kong and the Hobbit.
    Especially this bit here:p
     
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  18. Messi

    Messi G.O.A.T.

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    This is my perception, also.

    I compare the kiss of Rey and Ben with the one of Rose and Finn in TLJ.
    It's a goodbye kiss, gratitude, sympathy, etc.... I can't see love involved in both scenes.
     
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  19. madcatwoman17

    madcatwoman17 Clone Commander

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    With Finn and Rose, they'd only just met. Rose had the beginning of feelings for him, but it was the beginning of a relationship ( which ultimately was never fulfilled).

    With Rey and Ben, it was the culmination of their relationship, and ended with Ben sacrificing himself for someone who didn't love him. And as presented in the film...cared nothing for him.

    This is one of my major problems with TROS - it has absolutely no heart at all.

    Rose almost died to save Finn, yet it's as if that never happened. Finn and Rose had hardly any scenes together, and it made him seem cold. Ben did die saving Rey and yet she never acknowledged it - she isn't shown telling her friends that he died for her, for crying out loud.

    JJ and Terrio were just interested in endless action sequences, and not about what the characters were actually feeling. Every time there was a moment when they sat down and talked, it was rushed over so we could get another cool action sequence. Where would the OT be without Luke's grief over losing his aunt and uncle, then his mentor figure? Or Han and Leia's farewell in the carbon freezing unit? Or Luke almost killing his father in his desperate need to protect his sister?
    The PT also had heart...Obi Wan grieving for Qui Gonn, Anakin's grief for his mother, Padme's grief for Anakin...

    TROS was the most soulless SW film I've ever seen. I've seen more emotion in a computer game. Or an animated film. The Lion King had me in tears. TROS left me cold. Even when the killed off Ben, my favourite character, because five minutes later we were shown a grinning Rey and a grinning Leia and Luke on Tattooine.

    Whoop dee doo, who CARES about Ben when his family have the wonderful Rey?

    It was...ridiculous.
     
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  20. p03

    p03 Human/Cyborg Relations

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    wow my favourite character Rey the protagonist survived, and yeah she's great, she's free to live her life with her friends her found family. Rather see a grinning Rey than old wobble lips (which apparently is incredible acting :rolleyes:) . TRoS ain't great but I prefer it a lot more than TLJ and I have never hid my contempt for that film. But yeah I do realise my rasping of Kylo, sometimes, yeah, I think people get bored of my dislike. After TRoS I realised yep am becoming irritating because am just shouting into a gaping big black hole. Yep I am petty I did a get in at the end of TRoS because JJ started the sequel trilogy with Rey and Finn, just as TFA began. RJ bolted off in a different direction. I didn't care for BEN in TFA, didn't care after TRoS. Why? Because RJ pushed BEN too much, so much it began distort what we had. I heard podcasters say after TLJ now Rey is a nobody BEN is the most important character. Err, I strongly disagree with that because you know even Hildago said the Sequel Trilogy was always about a young female force sensitive discovering a depressed Luke on a lonely island. Not a 'Return of the King' style film of how the last Skywalker, gets the girl who turns evil as a prize and becomes the ultimate hero. Ben Solo was the Jedi Killer, the bad guy. And the irony of all this is, is that people advocated Rey nobody was to shift her and Finn aside so BEN could become the ultimate hero. Naaah, the story was about spirit and not bloodline. So I do think in a way some fans are a bit of self reflection of the films?. Skywalker blood he's the 'hero', that the status, it belongs to him. Kylo to Finn, 'That lightsaber it belongs to me', does it now? Yep it is fan entitlement just like Kylo's entitlement. They're acting like the sith, they are going against the story of what star wars is about.

    So yeah for crying out loud and I have said this before if anyone who has thrown themselves under a bus it's the fans themselves not JJ. Everybody is entitled to love and dislike what they want. If you didn't like the story of TRoS I get you, it's not good but I love certain actors and the actors I loved 100% deserved better writing especially in BOTH TLJ & TRoS. I GET IT. Especially Finn, Rey and most important of all the OT cast, there should have been a reunion. If there was one thing I detest from JJ was the creation of Kylo Ren / Ben Solo because people forget that. The Jedi Killer should never, ever have been the son of an OT character. In fact if they were looking for a reason of the lonely Luke island idea. Why not have 'Ben' as a child killed by Snoke. Because as I have said the fossilisation of George Lucas treatment was the force sensitive female 'Twinky' who became Rey on a Jedi journey. Not a male Skywalker offspring. I know people probably don't like that but it is what it is.

    It's not JJ's fault, it's unfulfilled self expectation.
     
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