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Did JJ Throw Himself Under a Bus?

Discussion in 'General Sequel Trilogy Discussion' started by SegNerd, Apr 15, 2020.

  1. madcatwoman17

    madcatwoman17 Clone Commander

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    One thing I will never understand...if they wanted the protagonist to be female, and the 'darling' of the Twins...why not make her Leia or Luke's daughter? By blood?

    There are plenty places for original characters in the SWU - in tv series, books, comics and stand alone films like Rogue1. But this was the SKYWALKER saga. So please explain why the SKYWALKER saga had to be about a Palpatine?

    Genuinely baffled by this.
     
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  2. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    Wow, that wasn’t my read at all. TROS picks their dynamic up from where TLJ left it. Rey had placed her faith in Ben Solo and genuinely believed that, given the opportunity, he’d make the right decision. But that didn’t happen. He betrayed her trust and the episode ends with her quite pointedly closing the door on him.

    TROS revisits this schism by having the Kylo character ask the question in Act 1: “I offered you my hand once. You wanted to take it. Why didn't you?” And then answers it at the end of Act 2 with the Rey character responding “I did want to take your hand. Ben's hand.”

    The clarification here is that Rey didn’t reject him. She rejected his choice. She still cares about him, but can’t invest in this dark and destructive persona. Her attitude toward him in the film then is entirely understandable and tracks consistently from the previous development. That attitude is then visibly reframed when we see the look of relief and acknowledgement on her face during the Exegol scene where she senses that he’s arrived. Specifically, that Ben - not Kylo - has arrived.

    I guess the movie could have done more to underscore the emotionality of their fraught connection and its resolution. But to claim that, as presented, she cared nothing for him? I’m not sure where that impression is coming from. The film, in my observation, managed pretty decently to convey her substantial regard for him - the real him.
    And Luke isn’t shown telling Leia that their father had been redeemed. Even though that was explicitly his dying request. We can still safely assume that happened though, yeah?

    But, honestly, who would she even tell? Finn? Poe? Is there some sort of narrative closure any character other than Rey would achieve with that knowledge? Would that revelation actually matter to anyone other than her? Help me out here. I’m having trouble connecting those dots.
    YODA: Death is a natural part of life. Rejoice for those around you who transform into the Force. Mourn them, do not. Miss them, do not.

    Rey unambiguously witnessed Ben transform into the Force moments after she was comforted and encouraged by the voices of past Jedi assuring her that death isn’t the end and those who've gone before will remain with her. It’s the payoff to the earlier setup of “be with me”. I’m sure she’d rather Ben have lived. Her reaction to his death is clearly not one of indifference. But grief or mourning in that moment wouldn’t be compatible with the setup to that scene.

    He might have physically died, but he’ll 'be with her' always. I suppose some reinforcement of that idea would have been nice. Having him appear with Luke and Leia at the end à la Anakin appearing alongside Obi-Wan and Yoda in ROTJ. I recall a lot of folks getting some properly twisted nickers over that perceived omission.
     
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  3. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    She ends the movie as “Rey Skywalker”. So it was about a Skywalker. Not by happenstance, but by deliberate choice.
     
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  4. madcatwoman17

    madcatwoman17 Clone Commander

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    'You cannot deny the truth that is your family.'

    Lor San Tekka in TFA, making a point that 'blood is thicker than water.'
    Also directed by JJ Abrams, director of TROS.
     
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  5. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    “I know where you come from. Before you called yourself Kylo Ren...The First Order rose from the dark side. You did not.”

    He’s talking about the family that raised him. Not his blood. The family that taught him to know the difference between right and wrong. He can act like this “Kylo Ren” villain character all he wants. But deep down, the truth is that he’s Ben Solo, the son of heroes. He was raised to know better. That’s what he can’t deny.
     
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  6. madcatwoman17

    madcatwoman17 Clone Commander

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    And Rey is the descendant of Galactic Satan.

    Sorry, but JJ contradicted himself.
    The sad thing is...Ben wasn't raised very well, was he? His mother sent him to his uncle when she could, according to TROS, have trained him herself. His dad was scared of him. And before I get a 'how DARE you say bad things about Han and Leia, it's canon that they weren't very good parents. So, his inherent goodness stems from the fact he's a Solo/Skywalker...not by how he was raised.

    Rey is NOT a Skywalker. She can call herself Obi Wan Kenobi or Padme Amidala or See Threepio and she STILL will be Palpatine's descendant.

    The OT was all about the ties of blood, as was the PT. It's what the 'Skywalker Saga' was all about.
     
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  7. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    Right. And that’s a matter of happenstance that was beyond her control. It doesn’t define who she is as an individual or what she values. It’s where her chromosomes happened to come from. It’s not where her sense of morality came from.

    But that’s the argument the villains of the piece are trying to make. “The dark side is in our nature. Surrender to it.” “It is your birthright to rule here. It is in your blood. Our blood.” It’s the same essential argument that the Emperor tries to make to Luke in ROTJ, “It is unavoidable. It is your destiny. You, like your father, are now mine.”

    The erroneous position that people are slavishly predestined to an inevitable fate based on the arbitrary circumstances of their birth is what the bad guys are saying. The bad guys, being bad guys, are wrong. Who you are is a choice and you get to decide that for yourself.
    Well, he became a mass murderer. So, yeah, I’d say there was some room for improvement in the old child rearing arena.
    Yep. What happened with their son was totally avoidable had they paid better attention and kept him closer rather than pushing him further away. That’s what makes it a tragedy. The characters fell short and created their own misfortune.
    There is no “inherent goodness” just as there’s no ‘inherent evil’. You aren’t born colored one way or the other. It’s our experiences that shape us. It’s the choices that we make. It wasn’t inevitable that Luke would triumph in ROTJ because of his last name. He had equal chance to go either way. He could have fallen like his father had. But he chose not to. That’s not because of his blood. It’s because of who he decided to be.
    I’m not sure why both can’t be true. She’s a descendant of Palpatine and she’s a Skywalker. Why would one negate the other?

    To protect his daughter, Rey’s father decided to be nobody, to be nameless and live a life of anonymity in the shadows. Because of that sacrifice, Rey can be somebody. She can take the most renowned name in the universe and live her life in the light. She can announce to everyone, with nothing more than her name, what she believes in and who she stands for.

    She’s a beacon of hope now for the whole galaxy. I think that’s a beautiful turnabout. Whoever her grandpa happens to have been, very much doesn’t matter at that point.
    You’re most definitely intitled to that interpretation. Personally, I think that’s massively missing the mark. There’s so much more being said that’s there for you, ready to be appreciated, if you let it.
     
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  8. madcatwoman17

    madcatwoman17 Clone Commander

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    But I can't, I'm sorry.
    TROS made Rey completely unlikeable. But most of all, I can neither relate to, or want to see more of, her. And I actually liked her in the first two.

    Never mind.
     
    #168 madcatwoman17, Oct 16, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2021
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  9. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Coramoor

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    Good discussion and further proof Star Wars needs to move past this bloodline thing. It's so beyond tired. It stifles storytelling and it's rather unimaginative. I really don't need more Days of Our Lives in Space. Hopefully future stories move toward Jedi being Jedi and get away from this force bloodlines thing.
     
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  10. Flying spaghetti monster

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    Here here. Star Wars was never meant to be about aristocracy or vanity. Star wars was about good vs evil. Kylo was screwed up. Honestly I hated him after his tantrums and killing my favorite character. Screw him I wanted him dead. However TLJ set up a good redemption story. I'm honestly glad he didn't go out like a simp and converter because of Rey. He was always good inside. It took his parents for him to realize it. Not some chick he liked. That's what I liked about kylo. It had nothing to do with Rey. She was a catalyst, but not the real factor.
     
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  11. madcatwoman17

    madcatwoman17 Clone Commander

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    R
    ey was actually his replacement. As a Kylo fan, and former reylo, I perhaps foolishly thought there was going to be a 'Beauty and the Beast 'style love story between them as they both seemed to have a lot in common - abandoned by their parents, struggling with a power they didn't really want, both angry and prone to fits of temper...but I think that Rey as a character was created to show the audience how much better she was as she was female. As a woman, I found that repugnant, but to each his own.

    As for the killing of Han Solo...looking back at the trilogy I am now convinced it was purely to make the audience hate Han's only child so they would cheer at his death and get behind his so much superior substitute, Rey...Palpatine.



    And judging by so many comments, JJ succeeded in that ;)
     
    #171 madcatwoman17, Oct 17, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2021
  12. Martoto

    Martoto Rebel Official

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    Neither of those statements are true.
    --- Double Post Merged, Oct 17, 2021, Original Post Date: Oct 17, 2021 ---
    It's not wise to take a briefly appearing characters dialogue as the filmmakers' manifesto. It's simply there to tease the reveal that this is another good guy gone bad (like Anakin Skywalker).

    Remember when it was revealed that Luke's father was actually his evil arch nemesis and that it was implied and in fact stated by the movie dialogue that Luke would follow in his father's wicked footsteps. But then he didn't. So did that mean that Lucas threw himself under a bus?
     
  13. madcatwoman17

    madcatwoman17 Clone Commander

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    Anakin Skywalker started out life as a good person, which Lucas repeatedly said - one of his quotes was that 'the villain of the SW saga is actually the victim.'

    Palpatine however, is a different story altogether. Lucas himself described him as 'Galactic Satan'. Which was why he also said that canonically, he had no children, or any flesh and blood descendants at all.

    Personally I don't think Abrams threw himself under a bus at all - he threw those fans who loved SW for the Skywalkers and those of us who were Ben Solo fans under the bus. Our affection for SW has been destroyed. Abrams' career continues to flourish, he is apparently now set to direct a new take on Superman.:eek:
     
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  14. Martoto

    Martoto Rebel Official

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    We weren't talking about Palpatine being a good guy. We are talking about Ben Solo.

    But now you mention it, Satan was a good guy. An angel in fact. God's favourite angel until he cast him down for getting too big for his boots and trying to help humans behind his back.

    Please don't do that.

    If Star Wars fans can handle discovering that Luke's dad slaughtered his innocent jedi brothers and sisters, younglings, at a mere suggestion that he could, possibly, maybe some day learn immortality for his girlfriend then I imagine you could put your own personal disappointment at not being serviced or rewarded with a specific romantic storyline into some perspective.
     
    #174 Martoto, Oct 17, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2021
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  15. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Coramoor

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    This is just silly. Rey was always going to be the center of the story. It was that way when Lucas was creating the story and it was that way throughout the production. If you don't like the character or the story that's fine, but this idea that there some kind of story objective because of her gender is just tripe.
     
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  16. madcatwoman17

    madcatwoman17 Clone Commander

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    It isn't the loss of 'reylo' that disappointed me, in fact I no longer have any affection for the ship as I no longer have any affection for Rey as a character. It's that they've killed off the Skywalkers/Solos, and unlike many fans who are into the whole SW universe, I'm not. I loved Han, Luke and Leia, and ended up loving Ben Solo even more.
    As I've said,these are my personal feelings, and it's nice that fans of Finn and Rey have got what they wanted, that those who love the SW universe in general are happy to see that universe move forward in new directions and are satisfied with what DLF have done and are doing.
    For me, I can't do the same, but I suspect it's another aspect of getting old!!:rolleyes:
     
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  17. Martoto

    Martoto Rebel Official

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    You said "our enthusiasm" had been destroyed.
    It's ironic that you claim to be a refugee from a forum where factionalism like that had driven you out.
     
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  18. madcatwoman17

    madcatwoman17 Clone Commander

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    I'm sorry, but what do you mean?
     
  19. AstromechRecords

    AstromechRecords Jedi General

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    We will never know what the original intention was. I am a Prequel Baby, but the ST could always have been done a million different ways, including what they went with.
     
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  20. madcatwoman17

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