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SPECULATION did mace-windu cause the collapse of the Jedi order

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by FallenAngel, Feb 5, 2016.

  1. FallenAngel

    FallenAngel Rebelscum

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    did mace-windy do his duty by trying to kill the emperor instead of arresting him, or did he cause the collapse of the jedi order?
     
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  2. Grand Master Galen Marek

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    No he caused the collapse of the jedi order by refusing Anakin's induction as a master.
     
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  3. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    he caused the collapse of the galaxy due to his knee-jerk small-minded short-sightedness.

    seriously, this character is as bad or worse than any Sith lord. hahaha
     
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  4. FallenAngel

    FallenAngel Rebelscum

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  5. John Crichton

    John Crichton Rebel Official

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    Interesting question. I'd say yes and no.

    No because regardless of what he did, the actual collapse of the Jedi (at least right at the moment it did collapse) was the obedience mechanism that was inherent in all the clones. Regardless of his actions, all those Jedi died (and hence the collapse occurred) due to that. He did use Windu's action to bring support wholly behind him, but it's Palpatine... he would've found a way to do that eventually.

    Also, they had many issues which extended to times well before Windu was a master.

    Yes because even had there been no 'clone plan' and all those Jedi survived, his actions, however just, would have been correctly construed as high treason, further undermining the trust any of the public still had in the Jedi order. It just would have been a longer fall than what actually happened, and probably a lot bloodier in the end.

    Of course, there was a chance for them to cover it up or somehow present if to the public in a manner to smooth things over... Still, the only way it would have worked would have been to go to the Senate before-hand, which we all know probably would not have worked anyways.
     
  6. Juan1921

    Juan1921 Rebel Commander

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    That's probably among the weakest stuff of the prequels. They needed a weak link, and it felt so force and dismissive of everything Jedi represented. I hoped for something more subtle than this stubborn self-absorbed man, who, indeed, was short-sighted, and made Yoda look bad for relying on him so much.
     
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  7. JediMasterRobert

    JediMasterRobert Rebel Official

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    First, we must remember the actual scene and what Mace Windu really said to Chancellor Palpatine.

    And, before this, though, we need to take into consideration Anakin's revelation to Mace Windu, which sets all of this into motion
    (source: http://www.imsdb.com/scripts/Star-Wars-Revenge-of-the-Sith.html):

    After this, Mace Windu and some other Jedi proceed to Palpatine's office:

    (duel)

    At this point, Palpatine engages them, easily dispenses with the three Jedi who accompanied Mace Windu, and continues to engage Mace.

    Then there's this continued bit of dialogue after Anakin arrives:

    (emperor)

    Mace Windu, even after Anakin's revelation, seemed to be of a mind to arrest and bring Palpatine to justice properly: "The Senate will decide your fate."

    Palpatine, equating himself with the Senate, and then going full Sith on the Jedi turned the intended apprehension into a full-out confrontation.

    At the end he is frying Mace Windu, who asks Anakin for help. Anakin, coming into this late, and buying-into Palpatine's feigned calls for mercy ("Help me. I am weak. I am too weak."), arrives after an earlier exchange between Anakin and Palpatine, wherein Palpatine plays on Anakin's growing distrust of the Jedi and tries to portray himself as having the higher moral ground:

    Palpatine "seals the deal" with Anakin through this comment, which will later be echoed during Anakin's final confrontation with Obi-Wan Kenobi: "Good is a point of view, Anakin."

    Up to this point, Anakin had been kept at a certain distance from the Jedi Council and misused by them, while they should have been above exploiting his closeness with Palpatine. And Anakin had been pre-programmed through his talks with Palpatine to begin seeing all of these things inversely, foremost Palpatine as the victim.

    Distraught, Anakin did try appealing earlier to his closest friend and mentor Obi-Wan Kenobi:

    Consequently, Mace Windu's original intention was lost upon him, and it gave the appearance of injustice when Mace Windu was on the verge of losing his life and defending against the revealed Sith Lord.

    And here's the kicker:

    Earlier, near the beginning of Revenge of the Sith, after goading Anakin to finish off a beaten Count Dooku, Palpatine says, "You did well, Anakin. He was too dangerous to be kept alive."

    In this last scene before Anakin's full and fatal turn, Mace Windu warns Anakin, "He has too much control of the Senate and the Courts. He is too dangerous to be kept alive."

    The only difference is that Anakin is now protective of Palpatine and perceiving the Jedi as traitors, overthrowers of the Republic.

    Moments after this he will be dubbed Darth Vader, and the rest is history.

    One cannot simply blame Mace Windu or any other single character in this timeline. Yoda had a part in this, as did other Jedi and others yet. The Republic itself, in handing itself over to Palpatine played a role.

    One might be tempted to point the finger back at Qui-Gon Jinn for discovering Anakin and insisting he be trained, and then later prompting Obi-Wan to train Anakin, but there was always more to it than that. Had Anakin not come along, Palpatine already had another apprentice ready and willing to do his bidding: Darth Maul.

    (vicious)

    As it turns out, all were players, and all were played by Palpatine in the end.

    That is, until Luke Skywalker turned it all around, gave his father a chance to right all the wrongs, Return to the Jedi he was meant to be, and bring Palpatine's injustice to an end while allowing for the possible resurgence of the Jedi.

    (luke)(green)

    JediMasterRobert
     
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  8. GingerByte

    GingerByte Guest

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    Drawing upon Legends material here, but in the episode 3 novelisation it's stated that despite Jedi being told not have any kind of passion, it is commonplace for members of the order to be passionate about the Republic. Windu was passionate about civilization, and by extension the Republic. After not being able to successfully arrest the Chancellor, WIndu deemed it appropriate to "assassinate" him, in order to maintain the democracy he believed in.
     
  9. JediMasterRobert

    JediMasterRobert Rebel Official

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    To build further upon my earlier thoughts on this specific matter:

    When the Chancellor declared, "I am the Senate," it was apparent, through his manipulation of matters and the Senate, and, as Obi-Wan pointed out, "managed to stay in office long after his term has expired," that Palpatine had nothing of democracy in mind and was no longer representing or acting on behalf of the Republic.

    By the "I am the Senate" remark, Palpatine unmasked himself, his true agenda, declaring his dictatorship defiantly to the Jedi.

    Had he, instead, complied with the Jedi, submitted to their containment and questioning, he could have perhaps resolved this encounter peacefully, even perhaps tricking the Jedi indefinitely that we was not a Sith lord, since the Jedi Masters (including Yoda) could not detect that themselves and also had their reservations/doubts about Anakin (e.g. "much fear that clouds your judgment") long before this (therefore calling his revelation about Palpatine into question).

    But avoiding the Jedi indefinitely was not at all what Palpatine had in mind. He was ready and able to take this situation to the next level. Palpatine's next step was to misinform Anakin (again): "When the Jedi learn what has transpired here, they will kill us, along with all the Senators. Every single Jedi, including your friend Obi-Wan Kenobi, is now an enemy of the Republic."

    So, after having revealed the Sith lord he was to Mace Windu -- and after having terminated the other Jedi who came to arrest him -- Palpatine was really no longer a legitimate governor of the Republic. He was operating in a traitorous and furious manner.

    Ironically, it was Palpatine who says, "It's treason, then," before lunging into the Jedi with his lightsaber.

    Mace Windu could barely defend himself, and, were Anakin not present, Palpatine would have easily dispensed with Mace Windu.

    It was only when Anakin arrived that Palpatine, ever calculating, used the situation to his advantage, feigning weakness and appealing to Anakin as a seemingly helpless man who was being overtaken by the Jedi.

    Mace Windu did not go into this scene with the intent of terminating the Chancellor. Palpatine lowered his energy and gave the appearance of vulnerability just enough to make it look Mace Windu was going to be able to end the matter.

    Given this chance, after having been resisted and electrified by Palpatine, Mace Windu did try to do so at that desperate point, since Anakin showed sudden hesitation, ambivalence, certainly no readiness to help Mace restrain Palpatine.

    But then Anakin chose and finally intervened, and Palpatine (not at all drained or weakened), finished things off with Mace Windu rather quickly, madly shouting, "Power! Unlimited power!"

    Anakin's choice, rendered primarily due to his hope of protecting Palpatine to learn how to save Padme from death (and secondarily due to his idealistic adherence to the Republic, which effectively no longer existed), made it incredibly easy for Palpatine to dispense with Mace Windu and the Jedi Order. Not that Palpatine really needed any help. He just wanted Anakin to decide after everything that was put into place to ensure the decision was pro-Palpatine and anti-Jedi.

    Afterwards, Palpatine declares to Anakin, "Every single Jedi, including your friend Obi-Wan Kenobi, is now an enemy of the Republic."

    Shortly after this, Palpatine will execute Order 66 and declare himself Emperor of the first Galactic Empire and Padme will remark, "So this is how liberty dies, with thunderous applause."

    In the end, Anakin (who has, by now, embraced the Emperor's vision) declares, "I have brought peace, justice, freedom, and security to my new Empire."

    The death of the Republic and the collapse of the Jedi Order go inextricably hand-in-hand: as democracy steadily gave way to dictatorship, through a series of illusions and poor decisions on all sides of the matter, the Jedi were increasingly at risk of being viewed as irrelevant or rebellious. They could not be willing members of and participants in such a system, especially one headed by the Sith, whose very philosophy contradicted what the Jedi held true.

    Many years later, Obi-Wan Kenobi would explain to Luke, "For over a thousand generations the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic. Before the dark times, before the Empire."

    If anyone, at this point in the timeline, had believed democracy and the Republic could have survived in some form, even as a glimmer of hope deep within the rebranded "Imperial Senate," Tarkin would enter and state, early on in A New Hope, "I've just received word that the Emperor has dissolved the council permanently. The last remnants of the Old Republic have been swept away."

    Assured as the Empire was now, Tarkin would go on to inform Vader, "The Jedi are extinct, their fire has gone out of the universe." Vader sensed otherwise, but it is no wonder, by the time of The Force Awakens, the Jedi attain mythological status.

    They were eroded and eradicated from within and without by a galaxy-wide maelstrom of consequences they could neither fully anticipate (as Yoda said, "impossible to see, the future is") or control due to their code of conduct, the complexities of the situations before them, and the limits of their Force abilities.

    Palpatine was the perfect storm.

    JediMasterRobert
     
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  10. Lord of the Rens

    Lord of the Rens HATES: Clumsy AND Stupid

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    Yoda is to blame.

    He couldn't smell a stinky Sith bastard if the Dark Lord himself sat in front of him and they drank tea together.
     
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  11. JediMasterRobert

    JediMasterRobert Rebel Official

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    :D

    "Difficult to smell, the Dark Side is."

    (yoda 2)

    JediMasterRobert
     
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  12. Another Locust

    Another Locust Rebelscum

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    HA!

    I don't think Mace Windu caused it. He accelerated Palpatine's plans but he didn't cause it. It was gonna happen either way.
     
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  13. GingerByte

    GingerByte Guest

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    To be fair, there was a Sith temple underneath that of the Jedi, amplifying Palpatine's power. So, really the ancient Jedi being idiots, and building their temple on top of the Sith's in an effort to purge it of residual dark-side energy caused the fall of the Jedi.
     
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  14. AstromechRecords

    AstromechRecords Jedi General

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    I think that it was actually Anakin Skywalker who caused the collapse...as "protectors of the peace" Mace did his duty based on Anakin's testimony and doing his duty was his ultimate downfall .
     
  15. FallenAngel

    FallenAngel Rebelscum

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    yeh not sure, would have been a different movie for sure but wonder what would have happened if he had been arrested found guilty and executed.
     
  16. CTrent29

    CTrent29 Rebel Official

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    The policies of the Jedi Order - created by the Council in which Yoda had served for centuries - led to its destruction. Both Mace Windu and Yoda's attempts to kill Palpatine did not help. But they were already on the decline and did not realize it.
     
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  17. AstromechRecords

    AstromechRecords Jedi General

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    If he was arrested, I think that he would have had an easy time manipulating the senate like he did after he killed Mace ...
     
  18. FallenAngel

    FallenAngel Rebelscum

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    yeh i think your right.
    In the absence of mace-windu, what would the catalyst have been that dragged Anakin in to ultimately become Vader.
     
  19. AstromechRecords

    AstromechRecords Jedi General

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    The catalyst was his own emotions but if Anakin hadn't chopped off Mace's hands, he and Analin Skywalker could have taken down The Emperor more easily if he had survived Mace's blow .
     
  20. Empire Jo

    Empire Jo Force Sensitive

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    Just because there was plenty of blame to go around, does not excuse his rash, hard headed, agressive actions. The collapse would likely have happened eventually anyway, regardless of Maces actions, due to the quintessential fact the Order had prioritised being the servants of the Republic over being servants of the Force. And did I mention he's also a nob.
     
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