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Did Sequel Trilogy kill Star Wars Saga?

Discussion in 'General Sequel Trilogy Discussion' started by KOBRAkon, Dec 20, 2019.

  1. Lord of the Rens

    Lord of the Rens HATES: Clumsy AND Stupid

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    That would totally ruin the ending of the Sequel Trilogy for me if a Palpatine-clone/ offspring wasn't ruling the GFFA after purging the Solos & the last Skywalker. I don't think the moon I live on, could survive THAT retcon.;)


    ***

    Disney-(pwned)" Cackle, akshually, heheheheh.... REY IS A LUUUUUKE CLONE!!!! Muah-Hahahahahahah!!! Cackle!" Disney-(pwned)

    (dark) - my face - (dark)


    :eek: - me inside the helmet = :confused:


    :mad: - my skull 5 mins later = (epic fail)




    :D
     
  2. madcatwoman17

    madcatwoman17 Clone Commander

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    You know, I had to chuckle on watching TROS and Kylo told Rey she was a Palpatine...it was so excruciatingly awful I bet Adam Driver was profoundly glad of his helmet so he could cringe away without anyone knowing. Must've been hard for Daisy though....
     
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  3. Lord of the Rens

    Lord of the Rens HATES: Clumsy AND Stupid

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    That line is the best summation of the Disney Sequel Trilogy and certainly was the most memorable thing to me. I waited 40 years to learn that secret. :)
     
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  4. madcatwoman17

    madcatwoman17 Clone Commander

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    :);):D
     
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  5. Use the Falchion

    Use the Falchion Jedi Contrarian

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    EXCUSE ME CAN I INTEREST YOU IN BRANDON SANDERSON'S STORMLIGHT SERIES?

    I can assure you as a Finn fan in the same way you are a Ben Solo fan, the only good thing about Finn's ending is that he lived. TROS stripped away:
    Finn's agency by having his entire personality revolve around Rey,
    Finn's arcs by having him never tell Rey what he was meaning to tell her the entire movie* and THEN simply giving him the rank of General instead of having him earn it,
    ALL OF FINN'S ROMANCE OPTIONS by doubling down on Rey/Ben, retconning Poe's entire backstory so he can have a romance** and FRIENDZONING ROSE OFF-SCREEN IN A BOOK. AND BY THAT I MEAN THE FRIENDZONING TOOK PLACE WITHIN THE BOOK, AND WITHIN THE BOOK IT WAS OFFSCREEN - ROSE WAS NOT EVEN GIVEN THE DECENCY TO HAVE AN ON-SCREEN MOMENT DEALING WITH HER LOVE LIFE.

    To me, Finn was great because he was a person who did the right thing despite his fear (and sometimes selfish motives), and looked like me. After TFA, I saw in Finn the first real Black male role model in a tentpole series that I've seen in a LONG time. He didn't betray his friends and then joined them after the fact like Lando, nor was he the dogmatic jerk (that we all still liked) that was Mace Windu. Finn was...Finn. TFA made it feel to me that they were building up to something greater with him. And then TLJ happened. Now, to be fair to Rian, Finn DID have an arc in this movie. I don't agree with it, nor do I think it was the right arc*** but it was there. But then TROS happened and...yeah, I've said enough as it is.

    The point of all of this is to say that just because a character lived doesn't mean they ended on a high.


    *To me this really felt like a love confession. Between Finn and Rey's intimacy and bond in TFA (i.e. Finn being the only character to give Rey what she wanted - someone to come back for her), their hug in TLJ, and the fact that pre-TROS all other relationships were closed off (Rey had closed the door mentally and metaphorically on Ben, and Rose had been friend-zoned off-screen), it really felt like this was where it was going. And then JJ and others were trying to tell us that Finn was going to tell Rey that he was Force Sensitive? Why would he want to tell her in private like that? Why couldn't they have Finn just use the Force in more overt ways than just his one moment where he senses Rey die?

    **This really felt like they were trying to shut down Finn/Poe (StormPilot is what I think it's called). It certainly wasn't my ship, but it was/is very popular.

    ***I always say that Finn and Poe's arcs should have been switched. Poe should have gone on the adventure with Rose, which would have not only expanded Poe's perspective of the war, it would have had Poe realize with the Resistance was where he was needed all along. Meanwhile, Finn should have had an arc about learning why the Resistance is different than the First Order. Finn's past would have also given Holdo a reason to not trust Finn outside of her "I'm in charge, just do what I say" one. (Which is fine, but I think her and Finn playing a sort of cat-and-mouse game against each other, with both thinking the other may be a plant/spy is far more fun.)
     
  6. madcatwoman17

    madcatwoman17 Clone Commander

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    Absolutely. Although my opinion of JB as a person has sadly gone down since the things he said on twitter post TROS, his character was great. As you know I was a reylo fan, but I also shipped Finn/Rose and I was terribly disappointed in how their 'relationship' was handled in TROS.

    I never saw any 'sexual' chemistry between Finn and Rey, before Kylo/Ben came on the scene, they seemed more like a brother and sister, but as I have said and will continue to say, that's my PERSONAL opinion. I'm also a huge TLJ fan and I loved everyone's story arc there, but most of all I thought that we'd see three things in TROS:

    Kylo and Rey dealing with the repercussions of their 'Force bond'....Kylo having to 'face the music' when Hux discovered who really killed Snoke, Rey having to explain to her friends why she shipped herself off to Kylo Ren in an escape pod.

    Poe becoming General - yes, I know he did in TROS but for about five minutes.

    Finn leading a stormtrooper rebellion.

    And ....they instead chose to give his story arc to Jannah and ignore everything else.

    But....the difference is, Rey Finn and Poe's stories will in all likelihood continue, either in books or comics, an animated or even maybe live action series. For us Ben fans, the story is over. Full stop. And that's what makes me feel sad.

    The funny thing is... I recently saw Dune in the cinema and found myself thinking what Herbert's epic saga would be without the Atreides family?
     
  7. Use the Falchion

    Use the Falchion Jedi Contrarian

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    I saw romantic chemistry not necessarily sexual chemistry (think Katy and Shang-Chi - their actions are intimate and often romantic without intention at the beginning, and then become intentional towards the end, signifying a shift in the relationship IMO). Or Peter Parker and MJ in the MCU Spider-Man series. They can be romantic without needing to have explicit, raw sexual chemistry or tension.

    I love the movie too and have mad respect for RJ (and he should totally come back), but it really felt like his own style and desire for one specific story got in the way of where the story could have gone. I don't blame him entirely for this, as a lot of the difficult questions RJ had to answer came from JJ's set-up, but there are still things that he could have taken more care with.

    RJ is a man of duality. He likes to do the "angel on one side, devil on the other" in his movies. Looper has this, TLJ has this, and even Knives Out has this to a major degree. But in TFA, I saw facets.

    Finn showed facets of Rey in their mysterious origins, Poe in their shared military backgrounds, and even Kylo Ren. Where Kylo grew up in the Light and chose the Dark, Finn was raised in the Dark but chose the Light. Where Kylo hypocritically called the Resistance "liars, murderers, and thieves," Finn called him self a hero and soon lived up to it. When Kylo screamed "TRAITOR" to Finn, the implications were so good! Was he really mad at Finn, a Stormtrooper he shouldn't have known anything about, but knew from Jakku regardless?* Or was he projecting his own fears and insecurities onto the Stormtrooper?

    Meanwhile, Kylo also reflected Poe in that Kylo was the prodigal son while Poe was the new heir apparent - a dynamic that was never brought up. Did either feel jealous of each other in some weird way?

    And while Kylo and Rey is explored more in TLJ, in TFA their relationship is far more brother-sister at best than anything else. Kylo explicitly points out that she views his father as a father, and then warns her about disappointment.


    *hinting at Kylo either having a really good memory, or having a past and/or future connection with Kylo...that was eventually never really extrapolated on or used to its fullest potential.

    Gonna try to point out how I saw it, not to change your mind, but to potentially open up a new perspective if possible. (Also, it's okay to have more than one ship! I can be a fan of Finn/Rey and Finn/Rose! It just means I'm doubly disappointed when neither happen...)
    In TFA: Finn's actions and words to Rey are ones of a boy trying to impress a girl. He blatantly says so when they arrive at Maz's castle:
    "You looked at me like no one else had."
    (And Han's line of "women always find out" reads far more like a mentor trying to pass down some romance advice than it does anything else.)

    In TFA, many of Finn's actions were born out of care for Rey; these actions pushed both characters forward and gave both characters what they wanted - Finn was able to be the hero he wanted to be and was acting like, and Rey had someone come back for her. Kylo didn't come back for her, he took her and wanted her as an apprentice. There was nothing romantic about it. Heck, Kylo even notes how Rey sees his father as the father she never had.

    TLJ to me doubled down on this - their whole bond was forced. It wasn't natural. Snoke openly gloats about the fact he bridged their minds as a test for his apprentice and a trap for Rey. This to me made it seem like Kylo and Rey's bond couldn't work because it was always artificial and superficial. The two wanted to see and be seen by each other, but they weren't necessarily a good or natural fit.

    Meanwhile, Finn and Rey had something more real and tangible. Finn's first question when waking up was "Where's Rey?" Rey's words to Finn that she wanted Chewie to relay were left ambiguous so that a potential romance could be kindled if that's what the third director had in mind. (Also furthered by Rey's ambiguous look to Finn at the end of TLJ.)

    The point being, Finn doesn't treat Rey like he does Poe as a fire-forged friend; he doesn't treat her like he does Janna as a kindred spirit - his treatment of her reads as a man who is into a woman.

    I'm always so curious about those who wanted to see more of that. To me, that arc was done. The bond was broken. Kylo had been defeated by Rey twice (once in TFA, once in TLJ by waking up before him and letting him live), had been betrayed by him, and had ultimately shut the door on him. Snoke had admitted their bond was not natural. Rey had nothing more to gain from the relationship - she was the moral and physical victory and the new heir to Luke and Leia. Why should they even interact anymore? I'm not saying that you wanting more from this was bad - far from it! Many people wanted more. I just don't see why personally.*



    *I feel the same about Finn vs Phasma round 2. In addition to being an offensively short rematch, Finn had already defeated Phasma thoroughly in TFA by escaping the First Order, helping deliver BB-8 to the Resistance, gaining his own independence ("My name's Finn, and I'm in charge now, Phasma! I'm in charge!"), and then forcing her to betray the FO. A moral victory over what's important can be just as impactful and decisive as a physical victory. Avatar: the Last Airbender has two great examples of that

    Iroh and Zuko don't need to have a final confrontation with Ozai. Zuko's knowledge of who he is and where his destiny lies is victory enough. Likewise, Iroh outright avoids confrontation with his little brother. Not because he can't win, but because he knows that it won't lead to peace. Instead, he's going to the city that took his son and is going to liberate it, and in doing so free himself from his past.

    Also with Zuko, Zuko didn't need to win against Azula in the final Agni Kai. And spoiler for a spoiler - he didn't. Zuko's victory over Azula came in the form of being the better firebender during the fight. His stability and ultimately the loyalty of his friends (in this case Katara) won the day. Azula may have been the better bender in most cases, but she ended up alone. The fact that Zuko had someone there to help finish the fight was the moral victory.

    An off-screen mass treason more than a rebellion, but your point stands.

    Honestly, I feel pretty different. Rey's story will continue, and Finn might get something, but I doubt Lucasfilm will ever be brave enough to have Finn lead his own story away from Rey. I'm not sold on Poe's story continuing, and that's not even getting into how poorly Rose has been treated and what's in her future. On the other hand, I'm positive we'll see more Ben. The era between the OT and the ST has been slowly building over time, and it's been a big point of annoyance for me how tentative they've taken those steps. But they've got DECADES to fill up in that time, and Ben is alive for most of it. I'm positive we'll see more young Ben, and I'm not sure a Force Ghost Ben Solo is out of the picture. And this is coming from someone who loathes the character.
     
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  8. madcatwoman17

    madcatwoman17 Clone Commander

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    Believe it or not, I have zero interest in Ben 'prequels', and just about every fan of his I know feels the same. We know the character's fate.

    I did hear rumour of JB being approached for a live action Finn tv series but it's speculation at the moment.
     
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  9. NinjaRen

    NinjaRen Supreme Leader

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    I'm a fan of Kylo/Ben and I would love to see a series about him.
    The first season would be about his time at Luke's Jedi school and the second season is about his time with the KOR and joining the FO.

    Sometimes the journey is more important than the ending. A good series could improve the missed opportunities of the ST.
     
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  10. madcatwoman17

    madcatwoman17 Clone Commander

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    I'm glad you feel that way, but now I know he has a sad ending, I find little point in being reminded of how ultimately empty his life turned out to be. In the end, the purpose of the last Skywalker was as the last Palpatine's metaphorical organ donor. And Ben/Kylo fans were expected to be grateful for that.

    Not this one, sorry.
     
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  11. NinjaRen

    NinjaRen Supreme Leader

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    I could also see a series about Rey trying to get Ben back from the dead? Would you like this?

    As a Kylo fan I hoped for him to survive as well. Either as redeemed Ben Solo or as evil Kylo Ren.
     
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  12. Jaxxon

    Jaxxon Green Space Rabbit

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    I think we're bumping up against an interpretive difference here.

    Do you want Ben to have a good ending in terms of a good story? An ending that fulfills his dramatic arc?

    Or do you want Ben to have a good ending in the same way you want an actual person to have a good ending--not so much that you want a good story, but you want good things for that person?

    Because if you're emotionally invested in Ben's well-being, almost as if he were a real person, then it makes sense that you wouldn't like the ending.

    But if you're emotionally invested in the story, as a story, then heroic self-sacrifice is a perfectly fine ending. In fact, it's a Star Wars storytelling staple. Anakin did it, Ben Kenobi did it. Although I agree that the actual execution was poor, Ben didn't die for nothing. He died for his only true friend. He died essentially so that the Jedi as a whole could live.

    You are absolutely free to enjoy these films however you want. If you want to watch it with a singular focus on Ben, and you want nothing but good happy things for Ben, that's completely fine and legitimate.

    But that's not really the priority of storytelling. The storyteller doesn't focus on giving his characters happy lives--if they did, our stories would be pretty bland. The storyteller focuses on telling a good story. So you can't really blame the storyteller for not having that same priority.
     
  13. madcatwoman17

    madcatwoman17 Clone Commander

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    Yes, I would.
    It's funny but I never saw Ben/Kylo as two separate people. I saw Kylo as a 'fake' persona Ben used to protect himself. 'Kylo' made him feel strong. But he was always Ben inside.

    I thought that Ben/Kylo and Rey would have a Beauty and the Beast relationship, and that Ben would resurface because of Rey's 'unconditional' love... just as Belle's love for the Beast taught him to be unselfish and to truly once again become the Beast. But it never happened.

    Off topic...I switched on my Netflix channel on tv and they were playing the end credits music from ESB. It brought a tear to my eye.

    Jaxxon...but TROS didn't deliver a 'good story'. There was no heart, or emotion, in Ben's death. Rey pulled a face then promptly forgot him. It's why so many Ben/Kylo fans are just as angry over the 'kiss' scene as those who hate him. It was so badly handled. I didn't weep, because it was so dispassionate. All it seemed to me was that JJ wanted to hurry up and rush to Rey proudly claiming the Skywalker name. Like the last season of GoT the whole thing was as if they wanted to get the Skywalker saga over and done with.

    Compare it to this:
     
    #233 madcatwoman17, Oct 23, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2021
  14. Lord of the Rens

    Lord of the Rens HATES: Clumsy AND Stupid

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    No return is out of the question now because of the advancements in cloning force sensitive beings.
     
  15. madcatwoman17

    madcatwoman17 Clone Commander

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    Problem is, how do you clone a body that just disappeared into thin air?
    Go through Kylo Ren's belongings and see if you can find a hairbrush?
    Or try and get a hold of his helmet?:confused:
     
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  16. Xeven

    Xeven Rebel Official

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    RJ stunk up the joint. He makes good movies just not good Star Wars.
     
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  17. madcatwoman17

    madcatwoman17 Clone Commander

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    It's a matter of personal opinion, and boils down to what each of us wanted to see in a SW movie.
    I loved TLJ because of several things:
    All of the characters - Finn, Rey, Poe, Kylo - had different journeys to make.
    The story had moments of character development, rather than endless action.
    Rian tried to show 'shades of grey'....such as the Resistance being not averse to buying their equipment from arms dealers.
    Rey was shown as a human being who made mistakes, not a 'paragon of virtue'....this I think, was emphasised by how the lightsabre, which had flown unerringly to her in TFA, split when both she AND Kylo reached for it. As if neither were 'worthy'. She was also shown attacking Luke from behind.
    Rian got rid of Kylo's mask, allowing AD to actually act.

    Most of all, Rian tried to do something...different. The film ended hinting at a completely different direction to how SW normally goes. We had two major organisations who were at war with each other, but both had possibilities of being not entirely bad/good. Poe, who appeared to be on the cusp of inheriting Leia's mantle of leader, was far more volatile and 'warlike'. Remember the speech Holdo made?
    'We are the spark of hope for the galaxy'...or words to that effect. Poe's speech was:
    'We are the spark that will light the fire that will BURN the FO to the ground.'
    Poe would have made a much more aggressive leader, not Saw Guerrera but someone willing to win by any means necessary. And remember - the Resistance had been severely depleted, leading to them maybe having to recruit some less savoury types.
    Kylo ended TLJ with his post rejection rage burned out...and Hux watching him as if just waiting for one opportunity to bring him down. It hinted that maybe Kylo wouldn't have been a completely 'evil' leader, which Hux would have seen as a 'weakness'....maybe Hux would end up ousting Kylo and becoming the new 'big bad' - especially if he got his hands on some of the super weapons it was said Snoke had in the Unknown Regions.

    Then we have Finn going undercover to take apart the FO from within, such as encouraging the stormtroopers to revolt, while Rey is caught up in the middle.

    Most of all....throughout TLJ Rian kept hinting at a new kind of Jedi which sought a balance between the light side and the dark....I particularly remember the pool in the cave on Acht To which featured a mosaic of a creature holding a double lightsabre. A creature that was neither black or white but half of each.

    This is why as a viewer and SW fan I found TROS such a shattering disappointment. It practically wiped out all those fascinating possibilities and simply gave a rehash of ROTJ, only with a far less satisfying ending.
     
    #237 madcatwoman17, Oct 27, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2021
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