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SPOILER Did Sequel Trilogy kill Star Wars Saga?

Discussion in 'General Sequel Trilogy Discussion' started by KOBRAkon, Dec 20, 2019.

  1. Veronica

    Veronica Clone Commander

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    I wasn’t referring to following previous story lines in the Bond films. I was referring to the characterization and even tone of the film.


    Craig’s Bond is only a ‘reboot’ in terms that it does not 1. Does not follow previous films (ie. Bond is just starting his career). And 2. They are just going back to the basics and stripping away some of the more fantastical and borderline silly elements that infiltrated Bond films. It was not supposed to be a whole sale jettisoning of the essence of the character.


    Again I love Craig’s’ Bond. He is a good man, he is a kind man and he is a noble man who fights for justice and hates bullies and venal people just as much as I do. But he is not suave, he is not charming and unlike Brosnan, Moore or even Lazenby he does not come across as an ‘Oxbridge’ graduate and long time civil servant who specialty is to infiltrate the corporate world and the lives of the mega rich. Which is what Ian Fleming intended . It’s well noted that he wanted Cary Grant or David Niven in the role. And originally dismissed Sean Connery as looking like ‘truck driver’. He changed his tune after the films started making money.

    Craig’s Bond looks like a hit man for the Russian mob, and behaves as if he just got discharged from British special forces. He is slightly more than a thug with a heart of gold. Bond is supposed to be an elegant and sophisticated man. Craig's Bond is not that.



    None of these changes have made the Bond films under Craig's tenure un-enjoyable because they don't mesh with what I personally enjoy and have been used to. I love the films for what they are, good storytelling, escapist fun and interesting characters. And I respect Craig's Bond for his character.




    Well then you're going to have quantify what you personally mean by 'sloppy' and poorly told. Because I had absolutely no problem following the story at all. From the smattering of complaints I have seen along that line that the film is a 'mess'. It often just turns out that the viewer can't
    follow a complex plot, can't understand nuance/read between the lines or need to be spoon fed the story or the film doesn't live up to their personal head cannon. That's not the films or fault. That's the viewers fault.


    When I said I am only mildly familiar with the world of SW, I meant that I don't have an encyclopedic knowledge of everything that has gone on in the SW universe. There are things I don't know or understand.



    Even I have stated that although I loved the ST, Or to be more precise I loved TLJ and TROS. I loved it for the character work. I have found the storyline to be paper thin. I have seen a few well thought out criticisms about the ST regarding the substance. But most of them stem from complaints that it doesn't match their head cannon or that their favourite characters aren't being used the way they think they should be used. That's not an objective opinion in my view. Or a respect for creativity.
    --- Double Post Merged, Mar 2, 2020, Original Post Date: Mar 2, 2020 ---
    Going from what I have seen online. A real SW fan is someone who thinks that everything should rotate around the OT, Kathleen Kennedy should be fired and 'Ruin' Johnson destroyed Star Wars and Rey is a Mary Sue.

    That's not me which is why I don't consider myself to be SW fan ;).
     
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  2. Obi5Kenobi

    Obi5Kenobi Rebel General

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    What was Palpatine's plan? The villain's plan should be pretty easy to determine in a movie. What was Palpatine trying to do?

    What were his intentions for Rey and Kylo Ren?
     
  3. Veronica

    Veronica Clone Commander

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    This was stated in the film. He wanted to pass his essence into Rey and use her body as a host so he could resume ruling. He told Kylo who Rey was and how her parents died, knowing full well that he'd pass on the information to her and that she would get into a rage Either kill Kylo. Or find the Wayfinder and go to Exogol. Kill Palpy and his essence would pass into Rey's.
     
  4. Obi5Kenobi

    Obi5Kenobi Rebel General

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    That was stated in the film? In the first minutes of the movie, before Kylo Ren leaves Exegol, the one of the last things Palpatine says to Kylo Ren is "Kill the girl!".

    And later in the movie:

    Emperor Palpatine: The Jedi apprentice still lives. Perhaps you have betrayed me. Do not make me turn my fleet against you.
    Kylo Ren: I know where she’s going. She’ll never be a Jedi.
    Emperor Palpatine: Make sure, and kill her.


    Palpatine knew that Rey would kill Kylo Ren? Kylo Ren had Rey beaten on the wreckage of the Death Star. It was only Leia distracting Kylo that gave her the chance to stab him.

    So Palpatine knew Rey would kill Kylo Ren, but she didn't. Also, Palpatine had no way of knowing that Rey would even have Luke's books. Without them, she knows nothing about any wayfinder. And, finding it depended on falling through the quicksand in the desert on Pasanna. He knew that would happen? And that the monster wouldn't kill her. Or that the wayfinder wasn't deeper in the sand and not visible?

    Even though he says he didn't want Rey dead later in the movie, he told Kylo Ren to kill her twice. Snoke also ordered Kylo Ren to kill her in TLJ. Snoke was Palpatine's puppet, so it certainly looks like he wanted Rey dead.

    So... What was Palpatine's plan? What were his intentions for Rey and Kylo Ren?
     
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  5. Phil J

    Phil J Guest

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    How it must feel to be a TROS fan.
    upload_2020-3-3_14-33-32.png
     
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  6. Veronica

    Veronica Clone Commander

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    It was stated during the scene when Rey confronts her grandfather. Palpy told her that he wanted her to kill him so his spirit was passed into hers and he could rule through her body.
     
  7. Obi5Kenobi

    Obi5Kenobi Rebel General

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    At that moment, at the end of the movie, his plan was to do that, yes. What was his plan at the beginning of the movie, and before? Or are you saying that his plan at the beginning was to have Rey kill him so he could take over her body even though he started the movie instructing someone with the ability and the motivation to kill her, to actually kill her? And then later questions why she hasn't been killed yet and gave the order again?

    And, according to Kathleen Kennedy, Palpatine has been behind all of this the whole time. That would mean that his plan was to take over Rey's body all along. So for at least two movies Palpatine, either as himself or through Snoke, has been trying to kill the person he needs to be alive to kill him. That's the sloppiness I refer to.

    Any theory about testing Kylo Ren or Rey or both to see who is stronger to take over is pure speculation. There's no evidence that anything of the sort was being done. It's a fan theory. All we're left with is Palpatine giving orders that will destroy his own supposed plan. And your statement about Kylo Ren telling Rey about her parents and triggering a response that gets Kylo killed is also just a theory. Palpatine also had no way of knowing that Rey could ever find him.

    It's like being out of gas and really needing the gas to get somewhere but sending your friend to blow up the gas station. Then, when he fails to blow up the gas station you announce that you never wanted the station destroyed in the first place.

    The only in universe explanation is that Palpatine's mind had been corrupted and he had become senile.
     
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  8. Veronica

    Veronica Clone Commander

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    This was all in the film. Generally when people make plans or have there are several steps to achieving that plan.

    Palpatine's plan from the inception was to inhabit Rey's body. That's why her parents took off with her and hid her as a child.

    He also told her (in the throne room) that he never wanted her dead he wanted her on Exegol (the Sith Empire). And D-O also told Finn that Oochie's plan was to collect Rey on Jakku and bring her back to the emperor. That's was his plan all along.

    In telling Ren to 'kill Rey' was as a means for Ren to confront Rey personally and reveal the reason behind her parents death and the reason for her miserable childhood. She would fly into a rage find the emperor and kill him and his spirit would inhabit her body. That's what she almost did until Leia died, and Rey stopped.

    I am just going to leave this here. You obviously don't like (or understand) the film. That's fine. We will just have to agree to disagree.
     
    #68 Veronica, Mar 4, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2020
  9. Obi5Kenobi

    Obi5Kenobi Rebel General

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    I think you want to leave this alone because you can't (and still haven't) answer why Palpatine, and Snoke before him, ordered Rey to be killed when she was supposedly needed alive to complete Palpatine's plan which has been in motion long before The Force Awakens.

    Also, your theory about Kylo inducing a reaction from Rey to get her to kill Palpatine, whom she'll have to miraculously find, is pulled out of thin air. There is nothing in the movie to support it. Palpatine doesn't give Kylo any instruction to do this, or even to bring her back to him alive. His instructions are, twice, to kill her. Palpatine created Snoke, presumably to execute his plans, and Snoke gave the order to kill Rey. You've got three instances of Palpatine, or his surrogate, ordering Rey to be killed and only one instance of Palpatine saying that he wanted her alive. The math ads up to wanting her dead. Palpatine saying that he wanted her alive contradicts his previous statements to have her killed. What if Kylo had succeeded in killing her?

    Palpatine is supposed to be a master planner. You're saying that his plan was to order her killed, hope that the person sent to do it doesn't actually do it and then hope that she comes to find him and kill him so he can take over her body? Seriously? Why leave it to so much chance? Why not order Kylo to bring her back to him alive? Because it's a messy, poorly executed story point. JJ Abrams just makes things look cool without any care for story.

    You're right, I don't like the movie. I understand the movie as well as something that doesn't make sense can be understood.
     
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  10. Veronica

    Veronica Clone Commander

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    Sorry folks...It's a slow day....





    There's plenty in the film to support her being able to find Palpatine. She had Luke's texts/journals for one. Even ignoring this. Rey has shown and demonstrated herself to be a very shrewd and canny and self- reliant young woman woman. She's managed to do that for the 15+ years which she lived on Jakku and spent raising herself since she was 5 years old. Building computers and ships and learning to take care of herself. She’s a survivor. She’s a voracious learner always doing something to better herself. There are plenty of people she could have talked to about the Sith empire. And even then they could have directed her to the right sources. Including Leia herself who would probably be able to guide her in the right direction given the fact that her father worked alongside Palpatine. There are plenty of archives left and even old Sith Simpathizers she could have turned to. It's called detective work. And anyone with a fine mind, which Rey has in abundance, can do.



    I answered this above already.

    As to the issue of Snoke telling Ren to kill Rey. Snoke probably was baiting Ren to turn on him. Snoke said he needed to finish his training and his training was complete when Kylo killed Snoke and became the new supreme leader.

    Ideally Palpy wanted to transfer his essence into Rey's form. But if that didn't work out he could always keep using and manipulating Ren and rule through him.



    Because Kylo wasn’t going to kill Rey and the Emperor knew this. Kylo is in love with her and won’t harm her. She even asked him why he didn’t kill her and when he had the chance. And he never answered her. Kylo has had the opportunity in all three films to hurt Rey and he has passed. Ren turned on Snoke when he started hurting Rey. Did you really think that he was going to kill her like Palpy commanded? Also Ren was never loyal to Palpy to begin with. Which accounted for his extending of his hand to her and asking him to join her so that they could defeat Palpy and take the throne together. No doubt his telling Ren to kill Rey was just a form of manipulation and to bring him on side.

    And what purpose would it serve in asking Ren to bring her back alive. When Rey could come to him voluntarily on her own volition? Not only would Rey come to the emperor with the intent to murder after discovering the truth about what happened to her parents and kill him as he wanted. Coming back alone and without Ren would mitigate Ren's interference in stopping her from killing him.



    No. I want to leave this 'alone' because like I said above:


    And you are a prime example of this. A lot of the answers to the questions you asked. Are either laid out in the films, or can be taken from reading between the lines.

    Seriously this should not have to be spelled out for anyone who has watched the films, studied the characters or just pieced things together using common sense. I can’t teach you how to think.
     
    #70 Veronica, Mar 4, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2020
  11. Obi5Kenobi

    Obi5Kenobi Rebel General

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    I've lost count of how many extreme hypothetical situations you've made factual to make this fit. First, Palpatine has no idea that Rey has Luke's books or knows anything at all about Exegol. Even though it's made clear that Exegol can't be found without a wayfinder, you say that Rey could have found it just by asking around a bit. Lots of people apparently know how to get there. She could have just asked Leia to begin with instead of going to find the wayfinder. If Leia knew anything about it, wouldn't she have told Rey before Rey went off to find the wayfinder? They had a conversation about it. The Sith sympathizers are just hanging out in the galaxy available to ask for info? Even if they knew where it was it's supposed to be impossible to navigate there without the wayfinder. There are plenty of archives left? What are you even talking about? In the PT the Jedi thought that the Sith had been gone for a thousand years. Now there are plenty of archives left to consult? What archives? You're making all of this up. It's all coming out of thin air.

    Snoke was goading Kylo into killing him? Did you even see that scene? Snoke was shocked. He wasn't expecting to die. That wasn't what he wanted. He wanted Rey to be killed. And, why didn't Snoke transfer into Kylo at that point? Because that process was made up for TROS and was never a thing before that.

    Palpatine sent Kylo with instructions to kill Rey knowing that he wouldn't do it? Seriously? Why even tell him to kill her? Why not, "Hey, just deliver this message that I had her parents killed and that she's my granddaughter, she'll get mad enough that she'll use her hate, ingenuity and hard work to come find me and kill me". If Rey is essential to Palpatine's plan to take her over, you think he'd risk the possibility that Kylo would actually kill her? What if Rey was getting the better of Kylo and he had to kill her to save himself? Oops! Palpatine's plan is down the drain.

    What purpose would it serve to ask Kylo to bring Rey back alive? How about that it's the opposite of killing her? If he actually wants her alive, why give the order, multiple times, to kill her? He was annoyed that she hadn't been killed yet and threatened Kylo with using his new fleet against him if he didn't kill her. That sounds like some serious determination to have her dead.

    I guess "reading between the lines" means "making things up that aren't even hinted at in the movie".

    I would never, ever want you to try to teach me how to think, or do anything else for that matter. It would all just end in, "make stuff up" to fit things that don't add up by themselves.
     
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  12. Matt_T

    Matt_T Clone Commander

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    I tell ya what's killing it for me: Disney or LFL or whomever retroactively tacking on new pieces of the story. And not even inconsequential stuff, either! It's gone beyond head-shaking into downright embarrassing territory. They already made a movie that tried to please everyone (and we know when you do that you end up pleasing no one). Now they're "revealing" new, seemingly important info in an attempt to make-good. But of course that always backfires, as they're once again trying to please the those critical by reframing events, thus changing the original story.

    Sorry, I know some will give me a bad rating, but they're really handling this poorly.
     
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  13. Jedi77-83

    Jedi77-83 Force Sensitive

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    It seems to me the only people that are mad at the new revelations from the upcoming book are the fans that didn’t like TROS or the ST overall. Now I have no problem with anyone who dislikes the movies as you have a total right to. I just don’t know why they would care about the new novel/comic material from those same movies?

    For example, I’m a huge Terminator and T2 fan but the franchise slowly lost me with each new movie after that. I honestly didn’t bother seeing Genysis or Dark Fate, and the one thing I wouldn’t bother with is delving into any outside material pertaining to those movies. The only outside material I care about is something I liked.
     
  14. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

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    The problem is, they are stating information that clearly should have been in the film. I mean, Star Wars has a baked in literary device in these saga films to just DUMP all this context on us without anyone caring at all. The stuff they are dropping is stuff that belongs in the crawl or just in the movie.

    This is the final movie in this saga, yet it sets up mysteries over providing answers now they are scrambling to give answers to basic things that needed answered.
     
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  15. Jedi77-83

    Jedi77-83 Force Sensitive

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    I would respectfully disagree as the fans complain more when they get more detailed answers. Midiclorians comes to mind as I have friends who literally hate that it existed as they like the Force before the PT fleshed it out. Fans complained about Boba Fett’s backstory, Anakin building C3PO, I could go on and on about the complaints.

    Star Wars works best when we don’t get answers. We don’t need to know Darth Vader slaughtered Younglings, we just needed to know he succumb to the Darkside. My point is the same complaints I hear about Disney now is no different than the fan complaints of the PT.
     
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  16. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

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    I think the difference is, midichlorians answer a question no one was asking.
    Palpatine has been presumed dead for nearly 40 years. That deserves explaining.
    A new threat deserves as much as needed for the story told. But resurrecting Palps deserves the effort in story.

    And I would disagree, respectfully, with the notion fans complain over detailed answers. See, Snoke; ALL THE THREADS
     
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  17. Jedi77-83

    Jedi77-83 Force Sensitive

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    SW movies have been written on the fly since 1980 so the movies are never going to jive without contradicting something from a previous movie. That’s why I didn’t need an answer to why Palpatine returned, cause no answer would have pleased me and just detracted from the movie. Sometimes you just have to ‘go’ with the movie and enjoy it for what it is. Luke and Leia smooched in ESB and then became siblings in ROTJ and nobody jumped off a bridge in 1983. My point is JJ had no villain in Episode 9 cause Rian Johnson killed Snoke. He could have brought in a new villain and than you have to waste half of the movie with his motivations and reason for existing. Or bring back Palpatine that dabbled on things from the PT like Clones and Cheating Death, and the movie can get going in the first 15 minutes.
     
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  18. NinjaRen

    NinjaRen Supreme Leader

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    And this is outdated today. Just look at all the new franchises or series, they try to be planned mostly. Isn't Marvel loved because they actually do follow a plan and a bigger picture? (Even though I don't see it really xD)
    Writing on the fly is very dangerous. In writing class you learn that before you can start a story, you have to know your ending. Without ending you can't prepare the audience for the following story.

    This is just a lazy excuse. "You don't like the movie, well that's because you're using too much of your brain. Just turn it off and enjoy the ride." => That's insulting IMO.

    He had no villain? He freaking had Kylo Ren and even Hux. Rian killed Snoke to make Kylo Ren the main villain or oppressor. That was the most interesting set up of TLJ, but JJ wanted to play it safe.
     
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  19. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

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    I disagree with so much of this.
    I think it's best we just part ways on the matter
     
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  20. Matt_T

    Matt_T Clone Commander

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    I was specifically referring to the info they released in the last week (clones/Palp family/Palp survival). I don't mind them expanding the universe in comics and novels with other storylines ... that's totally fine. It just feels like they realized after the fact that things weren't explained well (or at all) in the conclusive episode of a 9-movie saga and were like, "Oops, guess we better address this!" And then they really started digging a hole for themselves.
     
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