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Did Sequel Trilogy kill Star Wars Saga?

Discussion in 'General Sequel Trilogy Discussion' started by KOBRAkon, Dec 20, 2019.

  1. Lukestarbucker

    Lukestarbucker Rebel General

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    You know, I wouldn’t say kill. To be honest, Im not a huge ST fan. I did enjoy TFA, which I thought was amazing considering its similarities to one of my favorite films, ANH. Anyway, there are loads of people who have different opinions about the ST. Some don’t like it as much as those who do. But, saying that a trilogy killed the whole saga seems a but much, so I’m not gonna say that it did because in my opinion it did not. Now, I still am not too big on TLJ or TROS. But, they weren’t terrible, I just didn’t adore them like I do with some of the other saga films. So, no, killing the saga would take a lot of work haha. Maybe it killed the love of SW for some people, but not for me. Also, some people don’t like the PT, like my Father. Some people don’t like the OT like some of my buddies. But, none of these people have said that those trilogies have killed the saga. There are 3 trilogies, so there are so many possibilities for certain fans to like certain things in some of these films. For me, I’m all over the place in the saga and in all of the shows and series. Like I said, I don’t hate the ST but Im not that big on it. But I thought that a trilogy is a trilogy and Star Wars is Star Wars. So, no, the saga wasn’t killed by the ST, or better yet, will never be killed. Even people who don’t like some of the trilogies still find love in some of tue scenes or characters, or even some of the planets. To each their own.
     
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  2. madcatwoman17

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    For me, killing off Ben Solo killed the entire saga.

    Luke, Leia and Han all lived pretty full lives post the OT. So I wasn't upset by their fates in the ST, as long as they had an heir.
    But all I can' think of now is that everything they did was for nothing. Palpatine gloated that he saw the fall of the last Skywalker.
    And he did.
    The heroes are gone. Palpatine won.
    I never thought they'd end Star Wars like this.
     
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  3. Jaxxon

    Jaxxon Green Space Rabbit

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    I hear this a lot, but I have to disagree pretty hard. For me, Palpatine lost the moment Ben threw away Kylo's saber. He gives himself as a heroic sacrifice, his own choice to save Rey, who will carry on the Jedi and the Skywalker name.

    That's the ultimate irony. Palpatine's own line has be obliterated and subsumed into the Skywalker line. He gloats about seeing the end of Skywalker, and he maybe even thinks he did. But he doesn't realize that Skywalker is bigger than a family name. He doesn't realize that Skywalker is the heroic spirit that lives inside of Rey. It's the hero's journey she's taken over the course of the trilogy.
     
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  4. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    I still giggle every time I see this thread.
     
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  5. Lukestarbucker

    Lukestarbucker Rebel General

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    Haha lol
     
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  6. Veronica

    Veronica Rebel Commander

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    There was no way on earth Ben could be allowed to live after everything he did. People try to hand wave it away with 'he was maniipulated!'. But that's hard to excuse when he's an adult man pushing 30 and there are characters who have gone through worse than him, yet have not hurt others. Disney and LF have always been about the bad guy getting his just deserts. What kind of message would it serve to the general public if the villain (who killed his father, and hundreds of innocents) gets to ride off into the sunset with his girlfriend?

    The best Disney should have done was split the film into two movies. Kill off Ben, turn Rey into the dark side. And come back with another film where Ben is rescued from the WBW and gets Rey back. Hopefully given the financial fall out of COVID, Disney won't be completely shut the door on the idea of doing a sequel in the not too distant future with the ST cast.
     
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  7. Embo and His Pet Anooba

    Embo and His Pet Anooba Force Sensitive

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    I don’t like it the ST, but to say it “killed the saga” is ludicrous
     
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  8. Lukestarbucker

    Lukestarbucker Rebel General

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    Same to similar opinion here
     
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  9. Use the Falchion

    Use the Falchion Jedi Contrarian

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  10. Ghost of Obi Wan Kenobi

    Ghost of Obi Wan Kenobi Rebel General

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    The sequel Trilogy didn’t ruin star wars, even though they are my least favorite 3 movies in the saga.

    Prior to the ST, I viewed the prequels as “good but not as good as the OT.” Now, in a post-ST world, I can honestly admit the prequels are my FAVORITE Star Wars films because they’re now the most distinct pieces of the saga. (ST tried to hard to imitate the OT, visually and thematically. The prequels are the only SW films that feel “fresh” if you get what I’m saying.)
    Disney can learn from the criticism of the ST. Hopefully we’ll get the best Star Wars movies possible in 2023 (or whatever the date is now.)
     
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  11. Lukestarbucker

    Lukestarbucker Rebel General

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    Hmm. I agree to an extent of things. So yeah, I do 100% agree that the ST is trying so hard to be like the OT. It feels odd and unnecessary. I feel that when making a trilogy, it should feel and look fresh as it covers new points in SW. In my opinion, still the ST wasn’t terrible but still at the #3 spot of all the trilogies. But, for me, the most fresh trilogy is the OT because it couldn’t have copied anything and it was such a new and amazing experience for people who just started watching SW in 1977 to onward. But in a very very close second I have the PT. The PT is a good way to introduce the Clone Wars as mentioned in the OT. It brings us new characters and gives us a perspective of the younger versions of characters from the OT. Anyway, good post! :)
     
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  12. Messi

    Messi G.O.A.T.

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    SW wasn't dead after the prequels, the movies that divided the fandom back in that time. I think SW is much better now, after the Sequels, Solo and R1 than before for example.
     
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  13. Veronica

    Veronica Rebel Commander

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    Except for the fact that the backlash against the PT is the reason that the ST comes across in terms of plot points as a copy and paste of the OT. I have yet to see a criticism with regard to the ST that seems to be about depth. When I read criticisms about the films that they are bad, because Kylo didn't kill/beat Rey. That tells me that these people are not interested in the films as entertainment or a piece of art. But just a projection of their personal wishfulfillment fantasy. And that is so sad. They just want a simplistic story where the heterosexual male hero is Luke or Han can do anything without any internal growth or suffering.

    Although awhile back I did see one interesting critique of the ST comparing it to Battlestar Galactica. Which I took as code for it's too cerebral.
     
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  14. Yoda's revenge

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    Yes but they will keep making them because children will drag their parents to those movies keeping star wars profitable because Disney has loved to take advantage of children from Eisner on. Poor things won't realize the movies suck until they are teenager and by then there will be a new crop of children to take advantage of. Unless of course Disney is ruined by current events.
     
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  15. MandoChip

    MandoChip Hater of squid
    1030th Captain ** (Mod)

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    U wot m8?
     
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  16. RockyRoadHux

    RockyRoadHux Ginger General

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    So the kids drag their parents to those movies and

    You mean there will be a new crop of parents to take advantage of, right? It's the parents that get draged to the movies.

    We need to protect and save the parents!

    ;)
     
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  17. p03

    p03 Human/Cyborg Relations

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    As an adult Nah!
    EnoqXV4WEAkQYRQ.jpeg
     
    #137 p03, Nov 26, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2020
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  18. The Birdwatcher

    The Birdwatcher Rebel Official

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    When going into ROS I was very worried about how this whole saga was going to end. My feelings for the previous 2 sequel movies wasn’t good but each had their merits. I was so infuriated with TLJ that I wasn’t as hyped as I should have been going into ROS. I wasn’t the only one, because it caused Disney to abandon their entire plan for releasing the trilogy and trying to right the ship with JJ captaining said ship.

    That's okay, - the two previous films had their own merits.

    To be honest, I've barely seen a film wrap up a trilogy/saga in a successful manner. There are parts to Return of the King that I don't like. Days of Future Past isn't too shabby, though.

    I think this was part of the problem with the Sequel trilogy. TOO many chefs in the kitchen and they all were working on different meals, with different recipes and ingredients to serve a group of hungry fans all wanting the same thing A GREAT CONCLUSION TO THE SAGA!

    Well, there was enough back and forth between Lucas and Kasdan during the production of Return of the Jedi, and if it is to be believed, Gary Kurtz said that the film was going in a direction that appealed towards merchandizing and little kids.

    And why does Star Wars need a conclusion? It goes on and on. Star Wars can't be forced into an ending, or at least it can't anymore.

    I've heard once that Return of the Jedi doesn't wrap up Luke's story in a conclusive manner (Vader and Lando are given the hero's roles.). Subconsciously, this has been affecting people, as Jedi content, along with other Star Wars content has been rehashed ad nauseum.

    IMO, the entire trilogy should have been in stone BEFORE any of the movies were made if they wanted different directors/chefs at the helm for each movie. This way there would have been consistent storylines and plot devices that could grow and have meaning at the end.


    Star Wars, in its cycles of production, has NEVER been consistent, even under Lucas in the PT.

    In the OT, if I am correct, kept going in different directions.

    I enjoyed ROS more than any of the other sequel films, but need to watch it a few more times before I can rank it against other Star Wars films. There were some things that I didn’t agree with, but at the end of the day I can understand why those decisions were made (ie. Bringing back the Emperor was not something I was keen on, but I understand why it was done since RJ killed Snoke and a "Big Bad" was needed in order for Kylo/Ben to complete his character Arc).

    Kylo Ren could have become the big bad, as he is nearly the spiritual successor to TESB Vader. To be honest, as much as Vader embodied the enforcer role, The Dragon, The Ace, etc., he was associated more with symbols with evil (the snake on Dagobah, "agent of evil", leaping through the air like a devil, his abilities being influenced by the Exorcist film) in TESB. Vader helped the Empire hunt down the Jedi, is personally involved with killing Obi-Wan and Biggs, (indirectly responsible) for the deaths of Aunt Beru, killed many rebels

    Why did Kylo Ren need to be redeemed? Because of ROTJ, as it introduced the idea of the bad guy being redeemed.

    Overall, the storyline and direction of the sequel trilogy wasn’t what I had hoped for as a long time Star Wars fan.

    What did you desire in a SW film exactly? Mature writing as in ANH and TESB? Or, an overtly hopeful ending as in ROTJ? A semi-hopeful ending and victory in ANH?

    Waiting for over 30 years to see what happens after RotJ, we didn’t get the story that myself (and the Star Wars friends I have IRL) hoped for. Starting this trilogy at the point where Luke was training his new Jedi Order, Han and Leia together still and current stage of government after the downfall of the empire would help to set the stage for the new characters to take over.

    The new Jedi Order plot point is laser-focused on by many fans, somewhat on account of the EU. I guess people don't like the idea of the Jedi going extinct or being near-extinct, so they are required to repopulate to make for a "happy ending" and to avenge the state of the original Republic (destroyed).

    In that same film introduce the new characters of Poe, Ben and Finn; as they enter the resistance, join up with Luke and join the First Order so that there is no need to add EVERYONES back story in the final film. After that, the story goes how ever it goes, but at least we get the proper backstory from new characters early so choices they make in the movies are more understandable and also get to have some sort of sense of where the galaxy truly is when the new story takes off.

    Or, see the personalities and characters shine. I don't get why Kefka Palazzo gets a free pass, despite having a line or two of backstory in Final Fantasy VI, but no or little backstory in Star Wars for some of its characters is commonly seen as the worst thing in the series.

    I realize there are books and comics that cover some of this, but the average fan and casual movie goer are NEVER going to know that information because they aren’t aware that it even exists.

    Few fans pay attention to the novelizations of ANH, TESB, or ROTJ, despite containing content from cut/deleted scenes and explained reasonings not in the film.

    IMO the way the new trilogy starts off and finishes in a way that isn’t consistent with the OT and PT which is frustrating.

    The OT was inconsistent within itself, especially between TESB and ROTJ. There is some inconsistency between ANH and TESB as well, though it's not as much. The PT and OT aren't consistent with each other either.

    The ST isn’t all bad, but it had the potential of placing Star Wars as the greatest epic saga in movie history and it left something to be desired.

    Star Wars is already seen as an "epic saga".
    --- Double Post Merged, Nov 27, 2020, Original Post Date: Nov 27, 2020 ---
    Killed? No. Damaged? Yes.

    I know die hard, olde schoole fans that are giving up on Star Wars completely because of the ST. These are now people that would have paid for subscriptions to Disney+ and bought DVDs and seen future movies but now won't. I'm not one of them.

    I thought that they gave up already on account of the PT. I'm quite purist about ANH and TESB, and I think that TFA and TLJ were good successor films at the very least.

    I think that episodes 7-9 should have continued the stories of Luke, Leia, Han and Chewie as the main characters and introduced a new generation in the second or third movie. That new generation then gets episodes 10-12 to shine in. The treatment of the OT characters and what they did was handled poorly.

    Technically, they've been treated poorly since ROTJ. Han becomes less wise than Luke, who's supposed to be a kid compared with Han. Han's the butt of jokes when he was more like the big brother of the group in ANH (and especially TESB). Leia becomes less "cold" and more clingy towards Han. She also avoids taking action to help Luke on account of "she's the last hope for the rebellion" because of her latent Force abilities, it appears, and not on account of her political standing or knowledge. Luke becomes this carbon copy fusion of Vader and Obi-Wan whist being nearly being skinned alive for his previous characterization in TESB.

    If episode 7 had Ben as Luke's student throughout the whole movie and then showed a hint of darkness at the very end, that would have been better. Then in episode 8 you get the scene where Luke contemplates killing Ben and he runs away. Then in episode 9 Ben's real turn to the dark side but is defeated while remaining alive, like Vader in ANH. Maybe Luke dies while training Rey and his dying breath is to tell her to stop Ben. Then the new generation gets their own trilogy.

    If showing and not telling is needed. In TFA, we start in the middle of a story, to be put in the middle of the action.
     
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  19. p03

    p03 Human/Cyborg Relations

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    Talk about a sausage fest :confused:
     
  20. The Birdwatcher

    The Birdwatcher Rebel Official

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    To be honest, I'm debating what "worldbuilding" and "backstory" are and how important they are in respect to "characters" and "plot". I don't want to sound cruel or be harsh to PT fans, but one thing I repeatedly keep on seeing/hearing in YouTube videos (recent ones- there are few old ones that praise the prequels), is that the worldbuilding is good. Yeah, it's creative, and at least some of it makes sense, but does that help make the characters or the plot appear more sensical at times? Not really.

    So, it's like going a fabulous restaurant and receiving a fair or a poor meal. If the food isn't delicious, then I can't say if I had a good eating experience. The atmosphere (worldbuilding, backstory) may be good, but if the meat and bones aren't that good, I don't think that I can call my experience great.

    I've never seen worldbuilding (at least drastically) improve a plot, imo, and this is coming from an English major. "Worldbuilding" is fun, creative, and atmospheric, and can add to the theme, set up a mood, etc., but does little to improve/enhance the actual plot, imo- dialogue, characters, action, characterization traits, reactions. I like the sense of going on an adventure, so I'm not against worldbuilding. But it's often what the characters (or what do you, in the case of a video game) do that contributes to the plot.

    As for backstory, that's something harder to debate. Most backstories are: I did this/am doing this because of X reason. X reason is often poorly thought out or typical, imo.

    The best backstories are shown and not told in my honest opinion, additionally. I think it's how well developed that character is within the story that's being told and what they do; I don't think it's backstory as much, imo.
     
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