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Did Sequel Trilogy kill Star Wars Saga?

Discussion in 'General Sequel Trilogy Discussion' started by KOBRAkon, Dec 20, 2019.

  1. Use the Falchion

    Use the Falchion Jedi Contrarian

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    I totally get this. I think it's important for Star Wars, however, because of how those who watch it see the movies. I'll try to explain it:

    When I was younger, before the PT, I had Obi-Wan's lightsaber along with Luke's and Anakin's. I still have them! Back then, when I used them, I was playing as that character. I wanted Luke's green lightsaber because it was the coolest to me, or Obi-Wan's when my friend used Luke's. It was great. Heck, it still is great.

    But when the PT came out, something changed. With all of the Jedi and lightsabers and toys, I didn't have to imagine myself being a specific character; I, Use the Falchion, could be the Jedi. I could go to Coruscant or Naboo or Mustafar as myself. That was a major shift for me, and I don't think I'm alone in saying that. And I think to me, that's one of the magics of world-building. It creates a playground for people to imagine and explore and play in.
    The ST didn't really have that. And while I do think that is something major that was missing, looking back, I'm more accepting of that decision than I was at the beginning of this year.

    Worldbuilding gives readers/viewers/listeners/us a chance to see what lies beyond the end of the hallway, down that path, outside of that window. Does it mean that it has to be explored in the movie? Not at all! But leaving options there is a great way to build off a foundation.

    To use your restaurant example (which is a great one btw): If I go to a restaurant and have a good time and enjoy the atmosphere, I still might try to come back and try something different. It may be at a different time with different specials and for a different meal, but I'm willing to see what else they might offer...so long as they don't try to offer me the same thing as before. (Unless they got a new chef.)

    All of that said, I'm a person who actively likes worldbuilding in my stories, so one could say I'm a little biased towards it! (Although "worldbuilder's disease" is a problem.)

    Backstory, yeah, I agree with all of your points. I think if backstory needs to be related to the current story, it should be seen and told. If not, we can leave it for another adventure.
     
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  2. The Birdwatcher

    The Birdwatcher Rebel Official

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    I totally get this. I think it's important for Star Wars, however, because of how those who watch it see the movies. I'll try to explain it:

    When I was younger, before the PT, I had Obi-Wan's lightsaber along with Luke's and Anakin's. I still have them! Back then, when I used them, I was playing as that character. I wanted Luke's green lightsaber because it was the coolest to me, or Obi-Wan's when my friend used Luke's. It was great. Heck, it still is great
    .

    But when the PT came out, something changed. With all of the Jedi and lightsabers and toys, I didn't have to imagine myself being a specific character; I, Use the Falchion, could be the Jedi. I could go to Coruscant or Naboo or Mustafar as myself. That was a major shift for me, and I don't think I'm alone in saying that. And I think to me, that's one of the magics of world-building. It creates a playground for people to imagine and explore and play in.

    The thing is- I usually try to go somewhere. If one can't be a specific character, then the worldbuilding (going broad) could be a "robbing" of identity. That sort of reminds me of how FFVI and FFVII (especially) allowed one to pair up with Espers/Materia and put any magic that you wanted on your characters. Despite their being unique abilities still with FFVI/FFVII, it almost made your characters to be anybody. I've been playing the FFIV DS video game, and while that videogame still customizes characters- the customizing is still limited in some areas- there's a purpose and an identity to each character.

    The ST didn't really have that. And while I do think that is something major that was missing, looking back, I'm more accepting of that decision than I was at the beginning of this year.

    The ST was less creative and thoughtful about the how and why of design compared to the PT. Despite this, I think the plot is more significant compared to the PT (i.e. Why do I need to know that termite people helped build the Death Star II quickly? Darth Plagueis monologue (in respect to worldbuilding/backstory) is interesting with showing how ruthless Palpatine is and how the cycle of succession (Rule of Two) continues, but it doesn't (really) tell more about what we know about Palpatine- he is evil in his expressions, mannerisms, and manipulation of Padme (or handmaiden?) in TPM and with his alter ego (if the audience has guessed that Sidious and Palpatine are tied), who wants to wipe out all the Naboo citizens).

    Worldbuilding gives readers/viewers/listeners/us a chance to see what lies beyond the end of the hallway, down that path, outside of that window. Does it mean that it has to be explored in the movie? Not at all! But leaving options there is a great way to build off a foundation.

    I understand your thoughts and perspective on this- no hard feelings. As a writer myself, I daydream a lot, so I often think and develop side-stories for characters, often tying them into the main plot or reserving them for later.

    My thoughts and feelings on this: worldbuilding can go too far- it can produce some cool stuff, but I've seen it with the Kingdom Hearts franchise. The first game had a really cool and nuanced plot, which quickly (by the time of KHII) turned into an anime instead of a plot taking queues from possibly/probably Secret of Mana, FFIII, FFVII, FFVIII, FFIX, FFX, The Bouncer, etc. from Square's library of games and influences. Birth by Sleep has some of the worst butcherings of plot (eat your heart out dislikers of The Last Jedi) and hype deflation that I've ever seen (in respect to the Kingdom Hearts II: Final Mix+ trailer- Fate of the Unknown is a masterpiece.). Despite the fact that the game was supposed to answer:

    KHII Xehanort's backstory (not needed in respect to KHI- it was explained there in respect to Ansem. The plot twist in KHII warranted the explanation.).
    Who the Master of Keyblade was (was partially explained).
    Who the Lost Two were (Presumably Master Xehanort and Vanitas).

    Etc.

    Xehanort's backstory was one of the worst explanations I've heard, and that comes out of a retcon and a hook for the worldbuilding and plot, probably.

    To use your restaurant example (which is a great one btw): If I go to a restaurant and have a good time and enjoy the atmosphere, I still might try to come back and try something different. It may be at a different time with different specials and for a different meal, but I'm willing to see what else they might offer...so long as they don't try to offer me the same thing as before. (Unless they got a new chef.)

    In respect to post-TESB, the plot has, in most cases swiveled between pretty good to poor- to be fair even to the point of being rather poor. Imo, I think marketing towards kids has backfired, as it doesn't mesh well when trying to address serious political issues (Death of the Jedi with a cackling emperor/wizard.). Actually, there was some fairly good stuff in the ST, despite the lack of Lucas getting political/down-to-earth/relating personal experiences, such as having a figure (Shmi) possibly being based on his own mother, etc.

    All of that said, I'm a person who actively likes worldbuilding in my stories, so one could say I'm a little biased towards it! (Although "worldbuilder's disease" is a problem.)

    No hard feelings! :). Worldbuilding is good, but I'd like to be cautious about it, so it doesn't spiral out of control and go beyond the point of a simple, personal narrative.

    Backstory, yeah, I agree with all of your points. I think if backstory needs to be related to the current story, it should be seen and told. If not, we can leave it for another adventure.

    Thanks! I don't know about every backstory, but if it's well-developed or is inspired, it is probably worth telling then at another point.
     
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  3. The Birdwatcher

    The Birdwatcher Rebel Official

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    Also, I don't mean to be too harsh on the Kingdom Hearts franchise or anyone who likes them; the first game or two are actually games that I really appreciate.

    Edit: Sorry about the double-post; I was hoping that they'd merge. "Replying" or receiving a like circumvents this, I suppose?
     
  4. StardustSoldier

    StardustSoldier Force Sensitive

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    It's perfectly fine how some people dislike the ST, and even if they're no longer interested in Star Wars because of that. Thus, I can understand Star Wars being killed off from an individual fan's perspective... but of course that a very subjective thing. In terms of the franchise as a whole being dead, I agree with many others in that it's a pretty ridiculous thing to say.
    Exactly. I couldn't have said it any nicer myself. :)
     
  5. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

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    If anything spiritually "killed" Star Wars, it was the PT.
    It took so much of what was in the OT and just chucked it like it never happened.

    It almost makes ANH unwatchable with contradictions and mental "WTF's" you have to explain away or make up justifications for (or accept "official" explanations of).

    I'd go even a step further, though, and say that ESB spiritually murdered Star Wars.

    If you take off your brainwashed blinders and really watch ANH without letting your mind run off to every other "Star Wars" franchise lore bit that's been developed over the decades, then what you see is a VERY different story and world implication in ANH than even what ESB turned it into, let alone ROTJ.

    The world, motifs, and messages of ANH on its own are just so vastly different from what ESB turns everything into.

    ANH is dominantly about not sitting on the sidelines and ignoring tyranny, and personal growth through venturing into uncomfortable and scary situations and environments.

    Most notably, ANH's primary drum beat thematically is choice.

    Choosing to not get involved or to get involved, choosing to stick with what you know or try something new and scary, choosing to have faith or not, choosing friendship or your self, choosing to run or fight.

    These choices have consequences beyond yourself in ANH. Every choice a person (or droid) makes affects the galactic society and that's a big primary message in ANH.

    Regardless how big or small you are, every person's choice ripples through and affects their society's larger world, and pretending you can just hide from that responsibility not only itself affects society, it will lead to society shoving problems right onto your doorstep and force you to deal with them or suffer.

    ESB came along and *poof*...all that went away because Destiny stepped in and took over. Now it was all about how one copes with their inherited destiny. A theme that became the principle governor of the saga from that point forward.

    So, really, if you're looking for the spiritual murderer of Star Wars...well...it came a long time ago in ignoring everything ANH stated was what happened (to include the galaxy no longer being free as ANH's opening crawl stipulates the parameters of the gambit to result in if the Death Star is destroyed).

    But really...man...Star Wars can be considered to be "killed" at any point along the way.
    People call it dead at ESB (for the above reasons), others at ROTJ (see Birdwatcher's posts for examples), at TPM, at AOTC, at ROTS, TFA, TLJ, and TROS.

    Basically EVERY film in the saga has been SOMEONE'S "they killed Star Wars" moment.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  6. The Birdwatcher

    The Birdwatcher Rebel Official

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    Actually, Jayson, choice still plays into effect with TESB. I think one could argue for ROTJ that there is choice present, as Luke chooses to defy the Emperor and to not repeat his father's actions. The thing is that the theme of "destiny" emerges to create drama and challenge (namely Luke) in TESB. Destiny is in effect in ANH, to some extent, with Luke inheriting his father's "Jedi" role or a "Jedi-in training" role. The thing is, it's seen positively.

    When confronted with Vader's argument of destiny, as well as Yoda's beliefs that Luke will turn dark, he rejects them both through affirmations of choice (His promise to return to Yoda, using what he has learned from his training with Yoda during the fight with Vader, and finally choosing to commit suicide than to submit to Vader through surrender.). Vader still ominously echoes about destiny after the fight ends, so Luke's future is uncertain, but for the time being Luke has made the right choice, and he looks on with Leia to a somewhat hopeful future, since they have made it through their difficulties.

    True, it is that the galaxy isn't free anymore from TESB's opening crawl, but I think that it shows that despite being a change to the story, The Empire Strikes Back is the plot about the empire retaliating. It's the empire's revenge, or Jaws II: The Revenge. The Empire simply set out their troops, Imperial Dreadnaughts, and the Eclipse out to cope with keeping order with the regional governors. There could have been freedom for a brief period of time; it's been 3 years. But perhaps the Empire got smart and reinforced their grip on the galaxy. Does it conflict with the promise of freedom in Star Wars? Yes. Realistically, though, if most of the Empire was still around, they would have re-grouped their forces and found a way to keep order.
     
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  7. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

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    Firstly, I wasn't being very earnest, so take this all with a grain of salt.

    While I consider these ideas valid, I hardly consider them terribly important.
    Star Wars is an ever evolving definition.

    As to the point.
    Star Wars is almost always about choice.

    That's not the point.
    ANH is thematically governed by it at every single level.
    The rest of the OT is usually focused on Luke's choice with his destiny.

    ANH is about the choice to fight or not fight tyranny; to look out for yourself or society.

    Every character is wrapped in it at some level.

    The only one who isn't is R2, who never even considers any other option than fighting tyranny.

    He needs a sticker that reads, "This machine fights fascists."

    ESB and ROTJ, by comparison simply remove it for an axiomatic position that we fight tyranny.

    We reprise this idea in the PT, but it's reversed. Now it is society who has to decide to fight tyranny for a localized group, rather than a localized group who has to choose to fight tyrrany on behalf of society. And in the PT, society chooses not to, rather than to.

    But in the OT, that topic dies after ANH.
    Specifically what massively dies is the idea of "Joe any man farmer boy" being empowered in the fight for freedom simply by choosing to be, and being empowered by divine help simply by choosing to have faith.

    In ESB, this flipped to one that exchanged Luke from being "Joe any man farmer boy" to "Joe Someone".
    It retroactovely said that Luke was someone special and so therefore he had choices to make about the fate of the galaxy.
    This differs from Luke becoming special because he chose to "do what was right".

    In the ANH case, anyone can become special because anyone can choose to do what's right (that's the idea of Americana anyway). Meanwhile in the ESB/ROTJ case, only the predestined chosen leaders can become special, and because they are, they have choices to make that will affect their whole world.

    The ANH notion is relatable to WW2 Americana cultural ethos where every poster told a common citizen that they could either defeat fascist evil or sink their own ships, and the topic of non-intervention being unamerican was hot (ironically).
    The ESB/ROTJ notion is more like a fairy tale of a royal ruling family and their feuds which ravaged the kingdom for an era until the nobel side of the family wins and restores peace to the peasants.

    It's not just that it's about choice.
    Every story can be said to be about choice...otherwise it's not really much of a story.

    The difference is about what the cultural topic is, and ANH that topic is choosing to do the right thing for society and fight tyranny. In ESB and ROTJ it's about choosing whether, and how, to deal with the baggage of your legacy.

    Lucas is pretty straight about these things.
    ANH is always talked about politically and how Luke has to deal with things being thrust upon him because of his choice.
    After that, in ESB and ROTJ, Lucas speaks of Luke coming to terms and choosing his morality and how to react to this looming legacy.

    The two create vastly different airs of cultural topics.

    You could release ANH in 1943 to rave reviews and we would see it as a war prop. film. 1943 would cheer at the rural farmboy choosing to join the fight for freedom against Space Hitler and his Space Nazis, and save the day by flying a fighter plane with moxy learned from flying rural planes while effectively trusting in God to guide his bombs to the heart of Hitler's bunker.

    ESB and ROTJ...not so much. 1943 doesn't want to hear about the child of Space Hitler saving his Dad from eternal damnation, and as a result, saving the world from space Nazis.

    ANH is so Americana it might as well wear the American flag. ESB and ROTJ are so story book they might as well be Disney cartoons...which I'm sure Lucas would be delighted with...

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
    #147 Jayson, Feb 3, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2021
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  8. DarthSkywalker03

    DarthSkywalker03 Rebelscum

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    I definitely agree also !! If the PT and Star Wars as a whole didn’t have world building we wouldn’t have half as much creativity within ourselves to express our love for the beautiful art and love put in too all of the atmospheres that surround the key characters !! But I do agree with the restaurant example also because the individuals performance needs to almost show off the atmosphere that’s surrounds them !! But I personally love all of the movies without question because they all play a huge role and I think they are excellent !! I would love to hear others thoughts :D
     
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  9. Too Gon Onbourbon

    Too Gon Onbourbon Rebel General

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    To me the Daniel Craig movies make an excellent 007 but not a strong James Bond because the character is very different.

    Still Casino Royale and Skyfall are at or near the top of the franchise despite "the new guy" being 007.
    --- Double Post Merged, Feb 15, 2021 ---
    "Concluding" the saga was also a bad idea which forces more stuffing in crap and wrapping up what needed to be built on rather than focusing on telling a chapter on the story.

    Return of the Jedi wasn't a conclusion in real time.
    Many of us hoped year after year for the next episode in an ongoing saga that would continue the tales of that galaxy far, far away.

    Kylo as the biggest bad yet and Luke as the inspiration for new jedi, a new rebellion, and the force awakening all over the galaxy was planted and ignored for a quick wrap and nostalgia delivery device as a sugar rush for the discontented.
    --- Double Post Merged, Feb 15, 2021 ---
    Any measurement of tenure as a Star Wars fan over me is measured in hours, days, or at most weeks so I am far from a child and see no terrible movies but one kinda dumb one in TROS which is still better than any of the prequels overall.

    All the "hardcore" fans stuff is bluster and an attempt at arguing a privileged perspective.
    I read the mostly very lackluster at best YA novels too. There is no special magic or knowledge just differences in tastes.

    At this point "hard core" seems more like a nostalgia addiction and some false claim to special status to me more than any depth of fandom because you are not likely to value or know Star Wars more than me though such folks may well cotton more to a subset of materials that I never thought much of but digested and moved on with to have something during lean times is all I can quantify.
     
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  10. madcatwoman17

    madcatwoman17 Rebelscum

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    Star Wars will live on even without the Skywalkers, the popularity of Mando and the success of the High Republic has proved that, but in the end it comes down to how each fan takes it personally.
    I liked TFA very much even though it was a complete rip off of ANH in places. Contrary to most fans I absolutely loved TLJ; it isn't 'perfect' but it has become my favourite of all the SW films. I also now find that Ben/Kylo is my favourite all time SW character thanks to his complex nature and Driver's incredible performance - the rest of the cast were good but I thought apart from Hamill in TLJ he acted everyone else off the screen.
    But TROS turned out to be one of the biggest let downs in my history of going to the cinema. Despite the negative reception many gave the PT it nevertheless had a compelling storyline. TROS had no plot, no original story and the dialogue was terrible. Parts of it made me cringe. Scenes that should have been moving and uplifting were embarrassingly awful Case in point - when Yoda lifts Luke's X wing from the swamp on Dagobah it actually brought tears to my eyes, when Luke did the same with his X wing for Rey on Acht To all I thought was: rip off.
    The film was a shoddy mix of rehashes of other better films, and it just saddens me that they chose to end the Skywalker saga on such a downbeat note - because no matter how you look at it, it's changed the saga forever. Palpatine returns and kills of Anakin's only grandson, thus achieving his desire to erase the Skywalkers, making Anakin's sacrifice meaningless. Han and Leia will never 'live on' through their grandchildren, as their only son is dead. And Rey might have killed Palpatine - but we thought he was dead before, didn't we?

    As I was more of a Skywalker fan than a SW universe fan, the saga is at an end for me and I no longer have any interest in further projects. But the universe Lucas created will flourish, even without the Skywaker/Solos, and no longer needs old time fans like myself.
     
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  11. KesselRunner

    KesselRunner Rebel Official

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    Asking if the ST killed SW is like asking if the pine cone made the tree fall over.

    Let the pine cone fall where it may. The tree will stand.
     
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  12. Prequelfan93

    Prequelfan93 Rebel Trooper

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    Yes watch WCB and take a look at what TLJ did to the SW toy section in stores it is very sad. Also i was at my local Target not too long ago and i was looking around in the movies section and people are buying episodes 1-6 on DVD and bluray but 7-9 had like 20 + copies sitting on the shelf hmmmm really makes ya think. The ST ruins the ending of ROTJ and it not only ruined the saga but also the franchise.






     
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  13. Martoto

    Martoto Rebel Official

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    The sequel trilogy killed alright. :D
     
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  14. madcatwoman17

    madcatwoman17 Rebelscum

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    I wonder if it was just because they were too expensive?
     
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  15. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Coramoor

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    Just a word of advice... you're probably not gonna win anyone over at this forum linking to inane YouTube content that exists only to monetize people faux outrage. It's a form of grifting and the content they generate isn't suitable for intelligent discourse.
     
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  16. SegNerd

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    I agree - I mean, if you think about it, the ST ultimately retconned the Skywalker Saga to turn it into the Palpatine Saga. And while ROTJ has the best ending of all time, the ending of TROS is not nearly as good. Sometimes when I watch the ending of TROS, it kind of feels like the movie just “runs out of gas.”

    These are two of the reasons I have rejected the ST from my head canon.
     
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  17. madcatwoman17

    madcatwoman17 Rebelscum

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    I'm trying to think it ended with TLJ...but such a cliffhanger.
     
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  18. Prequelfan93

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    Its sad that you actually unironically believe that i even told my own personal experience how do you explain that? Also how do you explain the lack of episode 9 merch and why ST merch doesn't sell?
     
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  19. Xeven

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    Why did Disney kill everyone off? They killed everyone, killed the Skywalker lineage, Killed Snoke, Killed Han and Leia, killed Luke, killed Palpatine again, killed Kylo REN, killed the Chrome Trooper (name escapes me) Was like a murder spree bent on killing everything that made Star Wars great.
     
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  20. Xeven

    Xeven Rebel Official

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    Remember when Rey was in the cave and seeing time lapses of herself snapping her fingers. Make a new movie we’re a different version of Rey leaves the Cave. You then have Force multiverse and can write a better Saga.

    RJ just followed the wrong Rey out of the cave =).
     
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