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SPECULATION Did Yoda forsee Vader's redemption

Discussion in 'Original Trilogy' started by Darth Zloi, Jun 14, 2015.

  1. Darth Zloi

    Darth Zloi Dark Moogle of the Sith

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    We know that both Yoda and Sidious possessed impressive precognitive abilities in the Force. They weren't always right, but I suspect they were both second to none in this regard. Anakin also seemed to have some skill in this department, though lacked the necessary training to utilize it better, imo.

    Yoda told Sidious that perhaps his trust in Vader was misplaced. Was that just doubt in Anakin's ability? I personally didn't feel that way. To me it seemed more like something akin to Mace Windu's (now non-canon) Force ability of seeing shatterpoints in others.

    Yoda also said the future is always in motion. Did the wise little Jedi Master see the good still in Anakin? Was one possible premonition of his during meditation and training on Dagobah, Anakin's turn around to the light-side ... yet he was worried about Luke's potential sesuction by the dark side (another vision) during his warning to Luke.

    His "Wars not make one great." line seems to lend to the idea that he knew the Jedi's triumph and survival would ultimately be brought about by love and compassion.
     
    #1 Darth Zloi, Jun 14, 2015
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2015
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  2. Get In Gear

    Get In Gear Force Sensitive

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    I remember being involved in a long, deep discussion about this topic on at least one other SW message board back in the day...
    I'm not sure I have the energy to go through the entire debate again, suffice to say that there was a very strong case for presuming you must take both Yoda and Obi-Wan's actions and words at face value: Neither of them even told Luke the truth about his father - were they ever going to? Obi-Wan is pretty clear where he stands regarding Vader - "more machine than man... twisted and evil" and if Luke "cannot kill his father", then the Emperor has "already won".

    The conclusion I came to was roughly this: Yoda and Obi-Wan do not sense any good in Vader. Anakin is dead to them. Luke must confront Vader, and he must be prepared to kill him, in spite of the fact he is his father.
    Do Yoda and Obi want Luke to kill Vader? They don't necessarily want anything, which is where "always in motion, the future" comes in. They simply have to have faith in Luke to figure it all out for himself - if it comes to the crunch, for him to do what they themselves simply cannot do and see good in Vader. That's what it comes down to for me, Yoda doesn't need to believe Anakin can be saved, he just needs to believe Luke is prepared to face the fact Anakin cannot be saved. Because it doesn't really matter what Yoda thinks, this is not his fight...

    That, for me, is what Yoda and Obi are all about by that point in the saga. They are just prepping Luke, and getting him to focus on the reality of the situation. Vader being redeemed seems to be the key thing for the audience, and it is what Luke is letting himself become preoccupied with. But in a way, Luke's feelings about Vader are irrelevant - or at least they can become irrelevant if he allows them to. Yoda and Obi are guiding him away from that because what is more important is that he doesn't underestimate the Emperor, that he doesn't let his feelings for his father lead to him making the same mistakes. He's got to be aware of the bigger picture. And Anakin's redemption does not come until Luke rejects the conflict altogether.

    I don't think Yoda could have possibly predicted the outcome of that confrontation. He just knew that Luke's feelings for his father were going to be a tool that would be used against him.
    IMHO, at least...
     
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  3. Pobody's Nerfect

    Pobody's Nerfect Jedi General

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    There's no nice way to say this, so I'm just going to say it.

    Obi Wan and Yoda recruited Luke to assassinate his own father. They lied to him about his parentage so he wouldn't have any qualms about it. And killing Darth Vader wouldn't have restored the Jedi - it was purely a revenge killing.

    The last two Jedi became the very evil they fought against.

    If Vader hadn't told Luke the truth at Cloud City do you think Yoda and Ben would have? "By the way, Luke... that guy we're training you to kill? Well, he's sorta your father."

    Me neither.

    For some reason Ben and Yoda thought that what they needed was a badass warrior to stop the Sith. They forgot they had an entire army of clones commanded by hundreds of badass Jedi warriors just a generation before, and couldn't do it then. It seems like they forgot revenge is not the Jedi way, that a Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never attack.

    The greatness of Luke wasn't his skill with a lightsaber or his mastery of the Force. What made him better than all the other Jedi was that Luke wasn't blinded by loyalty to one faction. He knew it was wrong to kill his own father, so he refused to do it. He stood on principle, even when it looked like he would die for doing it.

    Palpatine was a master as convincing people to do something just a little bit against their principles in return for Palpatine giving them something they want. He got Padme to call for a vote of no confidence against her greatest supporter. He got the Senate to ask him to stay in power past his term. He got the Jedi to accept Anakin onto the Council. He offered something you need in return for you doing something you know you shouldn't, but you really, really need what Palpatine is offering.

    Palpatine hit a brick will with Luke because Luke simply refused to kill Darth Vader. It didn't matter what Palpatine offered. End the civil war? Save your friends on the forest moon? Stop shooting your Rebel fleet?

    Luke would not kill his own father. And the Emperor could not manipulate a man who refused to compromise. He could manipulate the Jedi Council, the Senate, and Darth Vader but he couldn't get any leverage on Luke.

    It's ironic that if Luke had tried to kill his father like Yoda and Ben Kenobi wanted him to, the Emperor probably would have had the leverage he needed to turn Luke.
     
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  4. Trevor

    Trevor Rebellion Arms Supplier
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    I think Yoda may have seen it but being "difficult to see, the future is" he kept it to himself as it was difficult to interpret as the future is fluid...nothing is set. That being said, Yoda knew that there was a good seed buried in Anakin that would (through Luke's actions) see daylight and sprout, perhaps too late, but nonetheless, he would be redeemed.
     
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  5. Get In Gear

    Get In Gear Force Sensitive

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    I'm not sure I'd put it quite like that, but yeah, there is not one shred of evidence to suggest Yoda or Obi-Wan a) felt there was any good in Anakin or that he could be turned and b) that this is what needed to happen regardless.
    And also, it's worth noting I don't see any reason to presume Yoda and Obi had separate agendas here either.
    If anything, you could argue Obi seems more sympathetic towards Luke and his needs because of this exchange:
    YODA: I cannot teach him. The boy has no patience.
    BEN: He will learn patience.
    YODA: Hmmm. Much anger in him, like his father.
    BEN: Was I any different when you taught me?
    etc

    Bearing in mind, this is Ben acting as the one with Luke's interests at heart, the same guy who flat out tells Luke he does not think Anakin has any good in him, cannot be turned, and if Luke cannot bring himself to kill him, then the Emperor has won from the outset.

    Now, you could also argue that the TESB exchange is simply Ben and Yoda playing good cop, bad cop with Luke, to get him to realise how serious this training business is. But then, doesn't that just prove Ben and Yoda are singing from the same hymn sheet all along anyway?
    The only thing that makes sense is that Yoda and Ben's feelings about the situation were mutual. And Ben spells out how he feels about the "still good in Vader" issue...
     
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  6. LadyMusashi

    LadyMusashi Archwizard Woo-Woo-in-Chief
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    I don't think that Yoda had foreseen the redemption, but, unlike Obi Wan, he keeps an open mind. These are the relevant quotes from both of them:

    Luke:
    There is still good in him.
    Obi-Wan:
    He's more machine now than man. His mind is twisted and evil.
    Luke:
    I can't do it, Ben.
    Obi-Wan:
    You cannot escape your destiny. You must face Darth Vader again.
    Luke:
    I can't kill my own father.
    Obi-Wan:
    Then the Emperor has already won. You were our only hope.


    Yoda
    : No more training do you require. Already know you, that which you need.
    Luke: Then I am a Jedi.
    Yoda: No. Not yet. One thing remains. Vader. You must confront Vader. Then, only then, a Jedi will you be. And confront him you will.

    In Yoda's mind, confrontation does not equal killing Vader. It is the final test for Luke - the way he deals with the confrontation will determine both his Jedi status and the future. Obi Wan is more jaded. He said the final good bye to his old friend. He is still hurt by Anakin's betrayal and probably still feels guilty about what happened to him. Yoda's mind is at least open to the possibility.
     
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  7. Darth Zloi

    Darth Zloi Dark Moogle of the Sith

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    Interesting todeas all around. I just can't see Yoda go for a "revenge" killing. One thing that leads me to believe that Yoda saw the small seed of good in Anakin is the fact that he sent Luke to "confront" Vader. He didn't say anything because he didn't want Luke to get his hopes up. I don't know, it's just my opinion. Also, Yoda would have to know that Luke wasn't powerful enough to take down both Vader and Sidious.
     
    #7 Darth Zloi, Jun 15, 2015
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2015
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  8. TheJackSack

    TheJackSack Clone Commander

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    I agree with this interpretation. They know that to defeat Vader, Luke must be of the most serious mind. When Luke cuts short his training, both Ben and Yoda freak out because they're seeing their best hope (not their last hope, Yoda reminds Ben) fly off into certain doom. And the last thing either of them expected was Vader revealing his relationship to Luke- probably because they assumed Vader had no knowledge of it.

    This raises an interesting side note- Ben did the right thing in hiding the truth from Luke. Had Luke known all along, of course he would plead with his father to turn good again, and this would lead to Vader manipulating Luke to become his apprentice. Whether Vader would have been successful is unknown, but it would have disarmed Luke early on from stopping Vader.

    Ultimately, Luke did the right thing at the right time, and in the right manner. But had this happened all on Bespin, Luke would have not succeeded.
     
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  9. Darth Zloi

    Darth Zloi Dark Moogle of the Sith

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    Really great point! It almost seems like the will of the Force played it's rile. As you said things went the way they did, in large part due to the fact they happened at the right moments. Had Luke learned the truth about his father earlier, a Sith he may have become.

    Also being a Force involves becoming one with the Force. While the future is always in motion, I feel that Obi-Wan perhaps gleaned the nugget of wisdom that telling Luke early would lead to the dark side consuming him.
     
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  10. Grand Master Galen Marek

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    I think Yoda saw Anakin's redemption through his children during his duel with Sidious.
     
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  11. Darth Zloi

    Darth Zloi Dark Moogle of the Sith

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    Yeah, it doesn't seem to be a popular theory. Perhaps I'm looking too much into one line ... but I keep going back to "Faith in your new apprentice, misplaced may be."
     
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  12. Grand Master Galen Marek

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    Yep that to it's just when he felled from the senate podium & the way he looked at Sidious like it was no longer Yoda's destiny to end the sith it was another's destiny to undertake.
     
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  13. Get In Gear

    Get In Gear Force Sensitive

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    Some of the dialogue cut from Obi-Wan's scene in ROTJ actually expands on that idea, and shows how bringing in Leia as "the other" was intended to provide Luke with the motivation to fight Vader:

    LUKE
    I can't do it, Ben.

    BEN
    You cannot escape your destiny.

    LUKE
    I tried to stop him once. I couldn't do it.

    BEN
    Vader humbled you when first you met him, Luke... but that experience was part of your training. It taught you, among other things, the value of patience. Had you not been so impatient to defeat Vader then, you could have finished your training here with Yoda. You would have been prepared.

    LUKE
    But I had to help my friends.

    BEN (grinning at Luke's indignation)
    And did you help them? It was they who had to save you. You achieved little by rushing back prematurely, I fear.

    LUKE (with sadness)
    I found out Darth Vader was my father.

    BEN
    To be a Jedi, Luke, you must confront and then go beyond the dark side - the side your father couldn't get past. Impatience is the easiest door - for you, like your father. Only, your father was seduced by what he found on the other side of the door, and you have held firm. You're no longer so reckless now, Luke. You are strong and patient. And now, you must face Darth Vader again!

    LUKE
    I can't kill my own father.

    BEN
    Then the Emperor has already won. You were our only hope.

    [...]

    LUKE
    But you can't let her get involved now, Ben. Vader will destroy her.

    BEN
    She hasn't been trained in the ways of the Jedi the way you have, Luke... but the Force is strong with her, as it is with all of your family. There is no avoiding the battle. You must face and destroy Vader!
     
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  14. Darth Zloi

    Darth Zloi Dark Moogle of the Sith

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    You make some great points. However, I'd like to add this is the same guy that said Darth Vader betrayed and murdered Anakin. With this destroy Vader talk, could we not be encraching more "from a certain point of view" territory?
     
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  15. Get In Gear

    Get In Gear Force Sensitive

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    Well, maybe, but "He is more machine now than man. Twisted and evil" is a pretty strong point of view to come back from...
     
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  16. Darth Zloi

    Darth Zloi Dark Moogle of the Sith

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    I definitely think that Yoda had a more positive outlook on the situation than Obi-Wan who probably argued that machine point to kind of distance his former "brother" from the evil entity he became.

    On a side note, I like how debate is going on, but civil ... without any name-calling or nastiness.
     
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  17. DEKKA129

    DEKKA129 Professional Slinger of Balderdash

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    I tend to agree with those who say that neither Yoda nor Obi Wan expected that Vader could be redeemed, especially after all of that time dwelling within the dark side of the Force. Yes, much of their dialogue when Luke first reached Dagobah was a bit of "good cop/bad cop" staged for Luke's benefit, but at no point did either of them give any indication that they saw a path back from the dark side for Vader. Yoda may have left it a tiny bit more open-ended than Obi Wan did (as DarthZloi points out) but still... I don't think either of them considered that they were sending Luke on a rescue mission.

    Taken on its own, the ROTJ script implies that Obi Wan actually tried that long ago and failed. Vader's response to Luke's entreaty to "come with me" on the Endor landing platform was to tell him that "Obi Wan once thought as you do." On Dagobah, Obi Wan's dismissal of Vader as "more machine now than man... twisted and evil" holds a note of bitter regret that seems to back up Vader's subsequent claim. I think Lucas' intention as of 1982/83 was that in the backstory Obi Wan HAD genuinely tried to turn Anakin back from the dark side years before.

    Unfortunately, he basically dropped that when it came time to make ROTS, and we really don't see Obi Wan making any real attempt to talk sense into Anakin and turn him back. As the scene on Mustafar plays out, it's a foregone conclusion that Obi Wan has to kill Anakin by the time he steps off of Padme's ship.

    But if anything, this even further supports the idea that Obi Wan saw no possibility of redemption for Vader in the OT.

    Did Yoda? I doubt it, although I imagine he'd at least have seen a bit more of a theoretical possibility there than Obi Wan did, not having Obi Wan's personal connection with Vader/Anakin. But he was very clear with Luke as to what his feelings were about the power of the dark side. If you take your first steps in that direction, the dark side will dominate your destiny forever. Vader, as Yoda was quick to point out to Luke, had been consumed by the dark side and had been reduced to "an agent of evil." Not a lot of ambiguity there.

    That said, I also don't think either of them saw this as a "revenge killing". For Yoda and Obi Wan, this seems to have been far more akin to the regrettable need to put down a rabid dog. Vader and the Emperor had spent the past generation bringing immeasurable misery to the galaxy, and the only way to stop them was to eliminate them. That's not revenge, any more than a massive dose of antibiotics is revenge against a bacterial infection. It was just what needed to be done for the sake of the galaxy.
    --- Double Post Merged, Jun 16, 2015, Original Post Date: Jun 16, 2015 ---
    I think the SW fanbase has made far more of "from a certain point of view" than Lucas ever intended. I also think that "from a certain point of view was rather sloppy writing on Lucas' part to begin with.

    Let's take a look at it. Now, many fans have understandably taken that line and extrapolated it to the point where it paints Obi Wan as a pathological liar. Many of the inconsistencies and continuity issues between the OT and the PT have been explained away by some fans as, "Well, Obi Wan just lied about everything." I've always thought that overstated matters a great deal.

    "From a certain point of view" came about only because Lucas needed to account for the story that Obi Wan told to Luke about his father in ANH, back before Lucas intended to make Vader into Luke's father. Fortunately, Sir Alec played that scene perfectly for what it eventually had to become. That awkward momentary pause before he answered Luke's question, "How did my father die?" was obviously supposed to have been Obi Wan preparing to tell Luke a painful story about his father's end - painful because Luke's father had been Obi Wan's friend, and because it was Obi Wan's own apprentice who had murdered him.

    But that moment was also easily translated as Obi Wan looking uncomfortable as he prepared to tell Luke something that he knew not to be entirely true. This ultimately made it much easier for Lucas to change up the story later on and turn Papa Skywalker into Darth Vader.

    But of course, that left Lucas with the need to resolve this "loose with the truth" moment once Luke knew that Vader had not in fact murdered Luke's father. Now, IMHO, this was already mostly taken care of through Luke's ROTJ exchange with Yoda, who essentially said that they kept the truth from Luke because he was not yet ready for the burden of knowing that his father was, in fact, the scourge of the galaxy. I have always felt that the "certain point of view" speech was overkill in the way it was worded.

    Where I think that Lucas went a bit wrong here was in Obi Wan's declaration, "So, what I told you is true." No, it was not. The subsequent points, that the truth could be viewed as Vader having "betrayed and murdered" his true self, are sound. But I think Lucas unnecessarily overplayed his hand by attempting to put forth that a white lie was actually true, since our understanding of reality depends on the perspective from which we view it. That takes a solid plot point, that Obi Wan and Yoda fudged the truth about Luke's father in order to protect him while he was still training to be a Jedi, and turns it into a point with far less legitimacy - that fact is merely opinion.

    The problem with that in terms of the Star Wars story is that it then gives license for bad continuity and sloppy storytelling, because fact is merely opinion in Obi Wan's view, and so he must be a pathological liar. (Plus, in a wider sense, "all fact is merely opinion" is a pretty lousy moral lesson to hang on people.)

    But when it comes right down to it, the "certain point of view" bit was little more than Lucas' rather hamfisted attempt to smooth over the bumps in his story from when he changed Luke's father into Darth Vader.
     
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  18. Cole

    Cole Force Sensitive

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    I don't really have anything to add...But I'm totally enjoying reading this thread! Everyone's posts are so well thought out and long. Good stuff. Thread of the week anyone?
    --- Double Post Merged, Jun 25, 2015, Original Post Date: Jun 25, 2015 ---
    I don't think I'd call Luke on Bespin successful. I guess he didn't fall to the Dark Side, which is good...but he went there to save his friends...he failed miserably at that. And he essentially commits suicide (he lucked out though). If he had just smashed into the bottom of that tunnel or missed that weather vane...His trip to Bespin would have been a complete loss. It all turned out alright in the end though, I guess.
     
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  19. Darth Zloi

    Darth Zloi Dark Moogle of the Sith

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    Perhaps luck or could it have been the will of the Force?
     
  20. Cole

    Cole Force Sensitive

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    Han would call it luck...Obiwan would probably say the Force.:D
     
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