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Discussion

Discussion in 'Random Discussion' started by Trooper, Sep 1, 2015.

  1. Trooper

    Trooper Rebel General

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    First and foremost, I would like to apologize for clogging the Finn thread with my past writings on this race issue. I understand that that was not the proper thread to have that discussion. However, I will not apologize for bringing the issue up, because it is an important issue. And it was made me realized (after looking through the forums) that it is an issue that comes up often, and we do need an appropriate space to discuss it.

    Now, I understand that this is a fandom, and many people do not want to go into social/political problems within a fandom. Fandoms are supposed to be fun and inclusive and a way to escape these kinds of dreary discussions. No one wants to have them, but that does not change the fact that racial tendencies, and macroaggressions need to be addressed, especially within fandom, a community that brands itself as open-minded and tolerant.

    What people need to understand about racism is that the nature of racism has changed, but the definition of it has not. Meaning that people like to hold onto an archaic idea of what racism is i.e: “I don’t like this character because he/she is a person of color”

    While that is an accurate description, it is also a very narrow one. Racism is more than just blindly hating a person because of their skin color, it is also a set of biases and subconscious ideas that drive how a person views/treats a person/character of color. It is far more broad, and insidious than most people realize. And yes, this is a definition that most people do not like because it makes racism and dealing with racism itself very very difficult. It’s a scary thought to think that we (and I mean all of us, white and non-white people) could have these biases those entrenched in our psyche. The best way to deal with it, is to look at our own patterns and biases as people. Ask, what kind of media do I watch/consume? Why do I consume this particular media? How many books/Tv shows/fandoms do I follow that have POC in them? How are these POC treated by the fandom and by the TV shows? Why? It is a long and arduous process, but it does need to be done in order to make our fandom more inclusive.

    Now, you’re probably going to ask “If we’re going to have a thread for racism, shouldn’t we also have one for misogyny?” And you’re right. We absolutely should, and someone should begin one immediately. Because I am a man, I don’t feel I am qualified to lead/begin a discussion of that nature because there are a lot of macroaggressions and subtleties that comes with being a woman in fandom, and in real life that I could be blind to. However, I am more than willing to listen and learn, and do my part to make this fandom more inclusive. J

    This thread is not meant to make people uncomfortable (even though that is something that might happen). It is meant to have an open and honest discussion about racial tendencies within our fandom. I’ve noticed that this is a topic that comes up a lot in regards to Finn (and even Poe, to some degree) and it keeps being brought up by different posters. This thread meant to listen to the concerns of people of color (POC) within our forum, and our fandom community as a whole.

    If you are a person of color, please feel free to explain how you feel/why you feel it. You can vent (as long as it is respectful of other posters and observes the rules of the forum). Because A lot of what I’ve seen in regards to racism is that conversations and discussions are always shut down without having a person’s concerns addressed. Now, not every person of color is going to have the same experience, and that’s great. If you are a POC and you’ve never actually encountered this particular type of microaggression, that’s wonderful and I’m really happy for it J But remember it does not invalidate another person’s experience with it.

    Now, I can already tell that some people may be uncomfortable with this kind of discussion. They may be saying, “You’re just trying to being race into everything” or “We don’t need this kind of discussion, you’re just looking into it too hard. Just relax and enjoy Star Wars for what it is.”

    Please, do not say things like that because it essential invalidates the points that I (and other people of color) are trying to make about fandom/fandom life. If you’re sitting there, and you suddenly feel defensive about what someone is saying, i.e “I don’t do that.” Or “I’m not like that” or “Not all people do that, I’m the exception.”

    Stop. Breathe. Ask yourself, “Why am I getting so defensive about this topic?” or “Why am I feeling the way I am feeling about what this person is saying?”

    What I’ve noticed in fandom (and not just this fandom, but many many fandoms) is that people are often more concerned with making sure they are not labeled racists, rather than making sure the marginalized person is being heard.

    If you have the urge to jump in and say, “Well, that’s interesting but it’s ALWAYS like that, we have so-and-so character of color, and so-and-so director, and so-and-so actor. It’s not as bad as you’re making it out to be.”

    Please stop, because what you are essentially doing is trying to invalidate this person’s very real, and very lived experience in the fandom, and it derails the conversation and gets nothing done. It doesn’t further understanding. I understand that you’re trying to make this person with these issues feel better (and it might help) but it does derail and (either completely or partially) invalidates the point the person was trying to make.

    Please, do not bring up things like #blackstormtrooper, or how from the very beginning you were against all those hateful, racist tweets against Boyega and the casting. While it’s great that you were, and we are all really appreciative of it, all it does is absolve people from really looking at their own racial biases in fandom. What that means is, is that if someone is talking about a very real experience within the fandom that they have lived, and someone brings up “#blackstromtrooper” and how “open-minded” and “tolerant” and “colorblind” they are, it essentially derails the conversation and instead of making it about the very real (and very painful) issues in our fandom, it makes it about how “I can’t possibly be racist, or have these tendencies because those people who sent those tweets were the REAL bad people and I’m nothing like that.” And what that does is make you feel better, shuts down the conversation and ensures that this marginalized voice is not heard.

    I know that’s not something people want to hear. It’s difficult, and pain and not a lot of fun to deal with, but it is the truth.

    If you do feel defensive, and on edge. Stop. Take a breath. Ask yourself why you feel this way. Why does this conversation make you uncomfortable? Really ask yourself these questions. And if you have to, leave the thread. Take a break. Do something else. But do not just sweep these problems under the rug and forget about them. That’s not helpful to any one.

    If there is something you really, truly do not understand, ask. Ask questions. Ask them why they are feeling this way. Ask them what it is that is making them feel unheard. Listen. Don’t get defensive. Don’t make the conversation about you, or how open minded you are. Don’t try and tell them that it’s all in their heads and that they’re just playing the race card. Listen. Try and understand where they are coming from.

    A little background on why I’m starting this thread:

    I am a man of color (a black man to be precise) and I know what it’s like to have people think the worst of me for no reason besides the color of my skin. And it’s not like they do it intentionally. It’s just something they have been conditioned to do, and it is not there fault, however it is a very difficult thing for me to deal with and at times these snap judgements about who I might be can very well put my life in danger. Now, I come to fandoms (any and every fandom) to get away from that Tt’s very disturbing, on both a physical and mental level, for me to come into a fandom, and see a character of color (like Finn) and have other users or posters make judgements about him. Now, I know this is all just speculation, and it’s all in good fun. I get it. However, it is very disturbing (for me and other posters who have noticed these kinds of patterns as well) to see people not just make negative assumptions about a character of color (and that’s not the problem, people can speculate all they want) but for those negative speculations to take root, spread quickly, and become far more popular than positive speculations about Finn’s potential character.

    This takes me (and other posters of color) back to a very visceral, and very scary place. People, every day make those same speculations about us, as people. And to see those same patterns play out in both our real lives, and our fandom lives is a very draining, and frustrating thing. And what’s even worse is when these issues are brought up (as they often are in different threads) they’re just brushed aside, and people tell us we’re “Looking into it too much” or we’re “Trying to make everything about race” or “we’re looking for things to get upset about.”

    When people say that they are literally invalidating our lives, and our issues. It’s difficult for it to play out in real life where we run the risk of getting hurt, or being killed, but it’s also bad when we see it in our fandom lives, where everyone is supposed to be equal, and one big happy community.

    That is why this conversation keeps coming up. That is why people are always bringing it up again and again. Because it comes from a very real place, and it needs to be addressed.

    Now, don’t say you’re “Sick of this conversation” or that “I don’t see color, it’s not important”, because that’s just invalidating our experiences. No one wants that.

    What I am NOT asking you to do: I am not asking you to change your posting habits. I’m not asking you to start marching with people of color against racism. I’m not asking you to stop favoring one character over the other.

    What I am asking you to do: I am asking you to listen, and really ask yourself some hard questions. I’m asking you to look at the patterns in our fandom, and really analyze them. Why do these speculations gain more traction than others? Why does this racism discussion keep coming up in regards to Finn? Am I really listening to what these people of color are saying my this fandom? Am I being dismissive of their concerns? And if so, why?

    Look, no one wants have a socio-political discussion in a fandom about laser swords, and space ships. I get it. It’s no fun, but it is something that needs to be done. The franchise itself is taking large strides to be inclusive. When The Force Awakens does premier, you can bet that there will be more people of color on these boards, and in the fandom. And, make no mistake, there will be people who belittle Finn (and other characters of color like Poe) for very small and miniscule reasons, and there will be people who exonerate other (white characters) for even worse transgressions. This, again, comes from a very real perceived bias that many people of color are hyper aware of. Yes, it is exhausting, and yes it is very frustrating to deal with. I know you’re reading this and you’re probably already frustrated, and exhausted, and tired from all of this. That’s how POC feel every day, and to have that same thing repeated in their fandom lives only makes things worse. I’m not saying you can’t hate Finn. If you wanna hate him, go ahead,

    I am not calling anyone a racist (and let me repeat that again, I am not calling anyone a racist) I am not trying to begin any fights. I am simply trying to create an appropriate place for where this discussion can take place. This thread is about learning, and opening ourselves up to different viewpoints within our fandom.

    When people accused the Star Wars fandom of being racist, there was a chorus of people who jumped in to proclaim how open-minded and tolerant this fandom was.

    Let’s prove them right.
     
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  2. ig89

    ig89 Rebelscum

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    I agree and disagree with you. You keep talking about being biased but you are only referring to colored people in regards to racism. It's not like colored people arn't racist towards non colored people. I also feel like people need to get over it. I also have certain characteristics in my appearance that I got bullied with and I've had to deal with it A LOT. But I got over it, I don't give a *** anymore when people say it to me. There is nothing to gain from being frustrated over it all the time and feeling victimized. Humans judge, about everything, including race, it's what they do. I do it myself and I don't particularly like myself for it, or humans, at all. Hell I like my dog more than many of my best friends. I think racism is just a form of bullying, but racism gets magnified so much by the media and the 24/7 discussions about it. And I don't want to be an A-hole, but I think the group of people that have to proof themselves the most to get somewhere in this world, is overweight women. Wouldn't we be truly open minded if an overweight woman was in the lead in Star Wars?

    The reason why I am biased and somethimes not so tolerant is that I've seen my country change over the years. The gigantic stream of immigrants has had very negative influence on Western Europe. I live in the Netherlands, alreayd packed like crazy. A big percentage of immigrant youth has been in contact with police. They don´t want to learn our language or adapt to our culture. From what I have observed over the years, my oppinion is that race mixing brings very little good with it, and quite a lot of bad. I´ve also had 2 pretty traumatic experiences with immigrants when I was a kid. I am biased, just like many people, and yes I don´t like myself for it. But I´m human, I´m evolved from an animal, I can´t help it. I´m part of the species that is cancerous to it´s planet. We don´t have that many good characteristics, that´s just the way it is.
     
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  3. Trooper

    Trooper Rebel General

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    First and foremost, I do owe an apology. When I created this thread I did so in a very US-centric way (and I will be honest, I don't know anything about race relations in Europe, or in any other parts of the world outside of the US, however I have already started doing some more research on the subject to educate myself)

    Second, I do appreciate your input, and the context in which you placed it (helping me understand your particular position, what is happening in your country, and how your particular values as a person from Easter Europe do not mirror mine as a POC in America, and I really want to know and understand more of this situation

    And, as I'm typing this, I've learned (after a quick google search) that in Easter Europe the terms White vs POC don't really have the same meaning in Europe as they do in America. POC means more than just "color", it also means things like nationality, and etc. (If there is something that I am missing, please let me know, I am more than open to learning). Are there any POC (and I mean that in the European sense of the word as well as the American, and any other nationalities there are) that would like to comment? Feel free, again, I myself am learning as well and I'm not very qualified to speak on this particular crossroad of identity.

    And again, the overweight women comment is correct. I believe that is an important discussion to have (and I do hope someone creates a thread like that).

    Granted, I would love to "get over it", and I'm speaking from my US centric view (and I know that our viewpoints can't really meet perfectly at this point due to our different national backgrounds), but lots of times it is rather difficult to do so. Lots of times myself, and others I know can't really do so because it does effect us in very real ways (I think I might of covered this already).

    And I'm not sure if the term "colored people" is something that is considered offensive in Europe (and if it's not, that's great) :) however, it is considered offensive to people of color where I'm from, and I would appreciate if you wouldn't use it.

    However, back to Immigration in Europe (which I honestly did not know was a political issue, and can clearly see it does not hold the same political space as it does here in the US). Could you (and other people) provide more context on that particular situation? (And if you are an immigrant to Europe, please feel free to chime in as well)

    Also, could please explain, "Adapt to our culture" because I don't want to get cultural ideologies mixed up. It may mean something completely different where you're from than where I'm from. Thanks :)

    I'd love to know more.
     
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  4. Rebo

    Rebo Nearsighted Whill Guardian
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    All humans judge and have bias towards certain people or groups. This is true. Its human nature to fear for yourself, and its the simplest and easiest path to categorize the threat of the other by assigning it to groups without assessing on an individual basis. All humans do it, but how you deal with it and how you behave in spite of it are what define you.

    Accepting the bias in yourself and moving past it by controlling your thoughts and behavior so that future generations don't hold the same bias is progress.
    Accepting the bias in yourself and accepting it as objective truth or becoming complacent about it is how prejudice and racism become socially ingrained and damage a society.
     
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  5. Trooper

    Trooper Rebel General

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    I wholeheartedly agree with this

    Also, I hope you don't mind if I ask you some questions on this...I'm just trying to gain a little clarity.
    About these experiences, and "race mixing" (and that's probably not an offensive term where you live, but it is where I am from) what exactly do you mean by that? Interracial marriage? Or just the idea of people of difference races living together? Does your entire country feel this way? And could you expand on this "bad" in which you mentioned earlier?

    And not to get too personal (and feel free not to answer this question if you do not want to) what was the traumatic experiences you had with immigrants? And where does this bias come from exactly? Is it our of self-preservation? Fear? I'm not judging you by any means, I'm just trying to get a clearer, cultural and historical (and yes, even personal) picture.

    But I do agree with you on one aspect. Acting like a victim is no way to go about anything, however talking about these issues in a holistic way can be beneficial. At least, that's what I believe.
     
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  6. PondaBaba

    PondaBaba Rebel Trooper

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    Let's have a discussion, or was your goal more of a way to clarify all these points? I'd like to think the fandom is extremely open to diversity, but no one person can speak for a fandom that spans the world over, it's gargantuan, but I guess you implicitly mean the hardcore fandom like people on this site for example. I know you say you don't want to start a fight, and I like your post, but discussions about race in any macrocosm of the internet have a tendency to veer off into hostile and dark places quickly, so you should equally consider this fact and consider the reluctance and the feelings of others and how they would be hesitant to reply to this, and lots of people don't feel frustrated reading that or need a deep breath and then to think deeply about this, because lots of people are used to this and won't get bogged down because we think about this a lot in our everyday lives too and try to empathize and not be patronizing to POC either, it's a "sensitive" issue all around for everyone that cares about it. However, I won't patronize you or hold back here, I'll give it to you straight, in the end we need to agree with statements like these, even statements that won't be as fair as yours that will be more extreme and blame white supremacy in society for all the hardships blacks face bar none, and statements like yours although fair do imply that (yes I know you didn't call us racists directly, but there is the implication of white racism trying to push back at the push for an inclusive Star Wars whether you like it or not) completely or we are labeled racists, so we can't really engage, which brings us to Orwellian thought crimes territory where I risk being an Emmanuel Goldstein of the site, but I'll give it a shot anyway. I would say this is in general a fair assessment, even I slip and think hey why does that person always want Rey as the main character, but hey maybe they simply want a female daughter of a Skywalker to continue the story, it is not always about black skin. Finn is different, it's a another level, everyone loves Lando but Lando wasn't the protagonist of Star Wars, Luke and his blonde Aryan boyish looks were. Anyways, your article strikes me as one sided and it sounds more like you're making a de-facto statement about the entire fandom or at least a significant part of the fandom. I haven't seen your other posts, this one is.. thorough and comprehensive regarding your views on the subject and your frustration with what you see as macroaggressions and microaggresions against black people in the leading role of Force Awakens and in this case John Boyega, and I like that you apologized and conceded at the start that you were clogging the Finn thread (although I did not see those posts) and although this threads purpose may be to clarify your point of view and have a space allotted for hard hitting issues regarding race, I struggle to see if it is necessary for us to have a Star Wars 7 News specific thread regarding the racial realities and characteristics sought after when casting that favor some groups over others that is pervasive in Hollywood, and attitudes and box office trends related to black leading men, maybe you want to talk about the concept of white privilege in society and how that feeds into that, and maybe systemic racism that everyone including me and you support by simply taking part in the system, and/or typecasting that reinforces stereotypes such as Latino actors always getting cast in macho gang member related roles which is precisely the reason Oscar Isaac breaks that stereotype by choosing roles that break this stereotype for Latino actors. I'm a huge fan of Boyega's first scifi film Attack the Block, a great mix of social commentary, cool effects for an indie flick, and it deals with issues like marginalized groups, gangs and impoverished areas in London, sort of an indie scifi response to the London riots that occurred years ago, it also featured a small alien invasion and Boyega was the lead in this film and really helped carry the film although all the actors were good. Abrams was a fan of the film, and promised Boyega that he would get him into a film one day. Sure enough, Boyega was cast as Finn, having proved himself in a variety of roles, showing he could carry a film as the lead and also show intelligence and vulnerability, he was the best man for the job and there's no reason for us to think other wise. Rightly so, although we do not have polling data (the only way you can precisely generalize the opinion of a huge group...) we can only assume that people are going to be happy to see Boyega in the lead role as Finn, if the film is as good as box office analyst predictions would have us believe. Now, back on target, knowing that Oscar and Boyega have shown their screen worthiness, and were chosen over millions of other hopefuls, of whom I can assume the majority of were white as the auditions (yea, the fandom is mostly white and geeky, although it includes every race and creed and gender and LGBTQIA+ everyone is surely welcome) let's specifically focus on how this effects casting and attitudes towards the casting of Star Wars Force Awakens: if someone criticizes Disney and K.K. and J.J. and everyone for hiring John Boyega BECAUSE he was black, well we can now safely say that he was chosen clearly on his merit and the role wasn't written to any specific color. Even if they did write it to be black, that's good, they want to push more inclusive on people, and that's a positive and healthy thing to me. Now, if a person says "I don't like Boyega, he seems too ghetto" then you can probably teach that person a lesson on cultural and racial sensitivity.. if someone says they don't like his acting, because his performances have too much exaggerated reactions or he doesn't have enough emotional depth... you have no data that isn't anecdotal, you are simply projecting your own prejudices on to that person, and you take THAT person to a very dangerous place by calling him a racist, when you have no idea whatsover of what this person thinks or feels about race, let alone the race of Finn. Have you ever during a conversation offered up a scathing review of their casting choices for Anakin Skywalker, maybe when they were about to cast Leonardo Dicaprio? It was attacked by all sides. The Prequels were torn to shreds from every angle, especially both actors that played Anakin, and the Prequels had some diversity but it was mostly white pin-up material for the leads for the most part. You have the benefit of no one calling you out on your racism if you don't enjoy a particular white person being cast, you can claim ad infinitum that any one person was only cast because of their European features and how terrible they are but if you happen to secretly despise all people of a lighter skin tone than you it cannot be known, even if they may have delivered a great performance, it is so subjective that you cannot say either or. So if they didn't like Boyega's past performances, again you cannot judge based on that and deduce that they are in fact racists. A few people on these boards happen to troll around and complain about black stormtroopers and it made you angry or frustrated or sad or depressed, that's okay, as you yourself proposed: take a deep breath, this is the internet, think deeply about how many idiots are on the internet and want to cause trouble and that people that post the more racially insensitive and stranger comments are usually in my experience more often to be the fringe elements of society looking for validation, and remember it takes two to tango: Remember that before they announced Phasma and Maz Kanata that K.K. and J.J. and Disney were attacked by the social media lynch mob, "Star Wars casting announcement: Still all white dudes" that was funny but of course there is a ton of hostility if the majority is white straight male and it doesn't "Have" to be. Everyone accepts this, there is a huge push to make movies more inclusive, but that is your reason why that, even IF Boyega had been helped out a bit by his race that some people assume (incorrectly in the case of Boyega) that genders and races of the original story got switched by the diversity departments of the production companies (even though I clearly stated earlier that he was the best guy for the job and beat out the competition fairly). Since there are so many groups pushing to make movies more inclusive, logically there will be less whites on screen and more POC, and that's great for society, but that's your explanation for why some otherwise not entirely racist people might be a bit ticked off (maybe they had written the script about the Skywalker children but then had to scrap it to allow space for a black character, Ihat's just one example of what angry people that are not necessarily racists may be thinking, it could be something like that or other reasons that have to do with ruining a good script by switching all the roles around, and in that case most people would agree it is not necessarily racist, it is more about not wanting to change the original vision or prioritizing diversity over all other things and then leading the story to change significantly, I guess this is a more grey area...) I also don't like the baiting to see who will answer and then shutting them down if you suspect they harbor some kind of prejudice themselves, even when the attackers just know they didn't mean it... it happens every day that a harmless remark turns into a firefight, and then the ones wanting to drive the narrative home for either monetary or status or validation related reasons use that person as a symbol of what they think is wrong in society, namely racism or sexism, and ultimately just a I don't have to deal with the racial profiling you may have to experience being black, you don't have that particular fear of losing your career and reputation when false allegations of racism are made against you because it can never happen to you. I'm not saying it is worse than having people think I may have criminal intentions sometimes, I'm saying that it is a horrific consequence you may not consider when trying to engage someone. What exactly do you propose the "fandom" does about a few internet trolls and what could be, for all you know, a very small minority of racists hating on Finn because they don't like a black man in the lead role and, to a much lesser extent, Rey and Poe? Do you want a real discussion about race, do you want everyone's opinion, from different backgrounds, to see if they agree with your stance on this and how they can relate or help with the push for inclusiveness? It's easy to find systemic racism anywhere you want to find it, look at Ahmed's best character in the Phantom Menace, often cited as a blatant hybrid of Caribbean and black face caricatures. You can look at Nien Numb and say this is a caricature of Mexicans or Filipinos. Finn is a different story, hate started coming in before we even knew he was a lead, but was it hate or some trolling or some genuine ignorance on the part of some fans that thought they'd somehow still be clones at that point? It's a sensitive topic, and you might be fuming or full of hatred towards me right now, so let me explain where I am coming from: Where I am from, straight white males are not welcome in discussions about race in academia, or are at least shown significant hostility, because we're too "privileged" to be able to contribute with regards to matters about race, as we are inherently unable to recognize the different advantages we possess and therefore are unable to ever properly understand the experiences of people of color, or even white women for that matter, this is considered true regardless of class or income level, and this is across most culturally Marxist leaning academic institutions, especially colleges and universities, in the Western world. I am as privileged as they come except I was born in the poorest community in my country, which is still pretty okay as it is still in the first world, and I worked very hard and fought tooth and nail to get where I am today, although it may have been much harder if I was a person of color, and although I can never truly relate to blacks and naturally I don't know anything about your race, gender, beliefs, and because of the anonymity most people on the internet could be anyone and think anything regardless of what you say, but you know as well as I do that the only answer I'm allowed to make, knowing that I am a straight white guy, is one that would be in complete agreement with you. If I don't agree and pick apart your arguments I am inviting a large swathe of people to call me a racist, and someone could easily have me fired, reported, banned, for that. I like how you said "minuscule things about their performance will come out, I assure you" what if they legitimately give a bad performance? There are two sides of this spectrum. A valid criticism will be seen as racism, by those looking for racism, and on the internet it is virtually impossible to detect sarcasm, trolling, jokes and so on, so honestly how are you going to distinguish constructive criticism from kneejerk negative reactions coming from the subconscious which is a product of systemic racism? Can I criticize drone attacks by the Obama administration without 50% of people assuming that this opinion is directly linked or at least influenced by racial bigotry? This goes for the immunity of criticism of Finn or Poe, or Rey for that matter---- if I were to make a movie I'd always want a non-white leading actor cast, it's nice to be able to dismiss all criticism as the deeply racist and bigoted raving lunatics. Remember though, foreign audiences, not Canadian or American or UK audiences, are most likely to react more negatively to a black leading man, Finn was not in the first teaser shown in some countries, maybe I'm assuming too much, but it seems strange only his clip was removed, then again maybe it was a time constraint, who knows, point is the movie industry studies these trends and foreign audiences prefer white leading man roles, why we don't know. There are people working in public office or hold positions in departments that deal with race relations, paid upwards of six figure salaries, that say things like "all white people have a little Hitler in them," and that's fine, they receive almost no flak for it and they get to keep their jobs regardless of having said that on record. (Google it..) I don't consider discussing things like this a debate or a discussion, it becomes a nuclear war very soon where people start attacking the person, and not the idea or system that is oppressing a particular group. The Star Wars fandom is incredibly diverse, I mean it's ubiquitous in pop culture. I hate the racist comments against Finn, I'm on of those that cheers when Boyega made his comment "You should get used to it." I really don't like negative comments that are probably actually racially motivated but you cannot know for certain if they are all racially motivated, yea sure a huge amount are, but some are trolls and not necessarily white straight males, some are harmless jokes by insensitive whites, some are black people themselves stirring up support for their own hashtags and building up their own targets for a witty retort and justification for further action, and some are just people ignorant of Star Wars and what is in the canonical lore or not. Sadly, political correctness renders it impossible for white people to discuss racism or misogyny in any rational way because the second you open your mouth, Hell even before you open your own mouth, you are labeled racist and a sexist pig by default in many circles and it is asserted by the media narrative that white males are unable to ever relate to you until the day you/ we die, and blacks and/or women that think the situation is not extremely bad and focus more on the progress are labeled apologists, coons, and traitors to the cause. No, I'm sugar coating it, they are labeled as individuals that have internalized racism, and who are racists and sexists themselves, regardless of their own color and gender themselves. This now is its own system that perpetuates throughout the culture, making the only acceptable thing to say is that society is the United States and the UK and Canada is the most sexist and racist on Earth, when it is clearly quite far, if not the opposite, of the truth. Also, you're right, it is uncomfortable and difficult, while some want to try and be more and more color blind, the left wants to discriminate more and more based on race, in a positive way but it is discrimination nonetheless. I can try to empathize with you and people of color as much as I can, I can't even begin to imagine, and I admit that life is some ways is definitely easier being white in the general case, but ever stop to think that maybe not every person on Earth should have to undergo sensitivity training to phrase things exactly the way in which you deem appropriate at all times? How can you and others honestly accuse a "fandom" of being racist? Why is that some desperately want a repeat of Gamergate with Star Wars now? Unless it is the fandom of Stormfront or a Klan site, yes that entire fandom would be racist, but otherwise it's hard and downright impossible and ignorant to even suggest that you can dive inside the mind of every Star Wars fan and then declare exactly the way they feel about black people; generalizing your own bias to that many people is odd, especially since Star Wars makes up what, a third of the planet's population? Projecting much? Yes, it is dreary, it is negative, and all we have is white supremacist fans in our fandom and no matter what I actually believe you will distrust me and think I am a white supremacist, when one of my favorite actors John Boyega, whose movie Attack the Block I had to show to my entire family, is about to be the leading man in Star Wars, it's going to be the highest grossing film of all time, and almost everyone, including me, support Finn as the lead and will see the movie in the theaters and also like your post. I'm sure 99% of people don't give a damn enough to comment negatively or not see the movie because the three leads are all not white males. Why not celebrate instead of skirting around the reality of the fact that yea, the world is cooler than ever with white female and black male leads? I guess we are lacking black leads a little bit, but I'd say we represent black males more than other minorities and we try to cast them more and more away from stereotypes now that they're conscious of it, MUCH more than other minorities/ minorities of different genders. There are so many movies with black leads in scifi that have been respected but I think badasses cast as badasses will always get love no matter what but anyways, Attack the Block and John Boyeha, Pitch Black and Vin Diesel, Will Smith did a few, the Blade movies had Wesley Snipes, Matrix had Morpheus, the OT had Lando, (funny enough at the time in 1980 when Empire was released you had the same chorus of detractors complaining that they finally have a black lead, but he betrays them... but I'm fine with that as he was the only black man in the galaxy and that was pretty bad..) the PT had Mace Windu and many minor characters, and soon we'll have Black Panther and Star Wars the sequel trilogy, and the anthology films, many of them featuring female and/or black males and even asian supporting/ lead roles (something I'd argue is just as important.. the image of poor Asian men has been completely desexualized in the media and they NEVER get the girl. The biggest hipocrisy is "Romeo must Die" had Jet Li kiss Aaliyah at the end, it didn't "test well" with "urban audiences" so they cut it out of the movie.. don't think the black community are angels when it comes to racism either. What about native American roles? There are quite a few unrepresented visible minorities that we could address, not only black Britons of Nigerian decent (I think?)) As for white females in scifi, I mean obviously there's Alien and a bunch of others but recently Hunger Games, Divergent, Gravity, Mad Max (arguably,) again there are so many examples, Google it. Of course it is still white dominated in Hollywood lead roles, it has actually a lot more to do with foreign box office returns than domestic if you look it up, domestically we're not that terrible with black leads in Canada and the States and the UK. Internet trends go completely over the media's head... I admit we may be ignorant to some issues minorities experience as white people, but please don't project too much on me personally because some of us you have to understand do not see race of others as a big deal, really and genuinely, so at all so naturally we do not notice white racists complaining as out and out racism too, but it's narrow minded to only single out white people when you have an American public that is, (it's hard to believe because of some particularly "loud" racist bigotry that persists in America that seems to want its voice heard,) mostly VERY proud of their country for having elected a black POTUS and being a country that has voted for a black president who was then elected, twice, where whites come out in DROVES to support anti-police rallies and #blacklivesmatter, supports affirmative action, supports severe punishments for any racial or sexist comments, as a society we all support his, look how strict companies react to social Media with the former Clippers owner and Hulk Hogan; on the other hand, a person who calls out journalists who now ignore all facts and prioritize the narrative above all, if you're a person fighting that you are labeled a stupid, racist bigot. Which explains the Rolling Stone article about Virginia university, which explains Gamergate, which explains scifi authors that were white not being able to be considered for some literary awards, which explains Nobel Prize winner Timothy Hunt getting fired for an innocent joke about women falling in love too much in science labs, and then finishing that with "Seriously, we need more women in science..." It's exhausting to have hit pieces done on sweet, innocent people just like it is for people to be prejudiced toward or racially profile sweet, innocent blacks because of some past experience with a black criminal or because what they see on Cops if that show still exists, having hit pieces done against entire fandoms because of a small group of racist trolls, too, by journalists who cannot wrap their heads around what a hashtag is and that a troll could be literally anyone.. INCLUDING black or female "agent provocateurs," or 12 year old kids making inflammatory comments who want to instigate the two sides, but even pointing out all the cases of this will have 50% of people reading my post think I am a sexist and a racist, someone whose opinion should be dismissed immediately. I can't imagine how difficult it is to feel racially discriminated against everyday because you are black, I know and recognize it is hard in certain situations and unfair, and I certainly am against police brutality and I know that having people prejudge you, especially law enforcement, can lead to brash decisions on their side that could be dangerous for you... but don't for a second think it is fun to be gagged if the issue of race comes up and be called racist scum every second of every day online and through the media and by institutions because we simply are white, too, while the stereotype persists that only white people are racist, only we oppress, and so on, all of which are at their core hatred and frustration with the system in place and advantages that white people have relative to others in society, some earned in full and some less earned, masquerading as pseudo-science. Who are the complaints about Finn coming from? Do you know if they sincere or not? Are you projecting onto hundreds of millions of people your ideas about them because of an anonymously-made comment that thought Stormtroopers are still all Maori at the time of the ST? lol.. We're in a society that votes in black presidents that had a few radical leanings in their past, we worship Oprah and black culture, we love hip hop and rap and it dominates our music charts... but yea, racial profiling is not cool, the situation with racism in the real world and how that extends into the fandom is terrible, but overall the situation.. it's bitter sweet, it's getting better, and on the internet everyone treats everyone like blast, and more often than not people will defend you and never defend someone who is racist. But hey, we will love Star Wars with a black lead in general, and the haters that actually genuinely hate it will have to "deal with it" like Boyega said. The best revenge is living well. In conclusion, we're not trivializing your experiences suffering as a black male, in conclusion we're not saying continue the dreary status quo, lots of progress is being made and fighting fire with fire, which is what it is when you're attacking a figurative giant invisible strawman that represents an abstract "fandom" of people you assume to be all white closet racists, it's fighting fire with fire and in most cases, it's internet trolls and you can tell them off and then you have to move on, because Star Wars and other movies will have more and more black leading men and that's a trend that is here to stay. At the end of the day, we can't tell if a person in their heart of hearts is racist if they make an innocent remark or a criticism of a black character, so we definitely can't judge an entire fandom. We need to ALLOW more nuanced and sophisticated argumentation, otherwise it's just hit pieces on those who you or others project your own thoughts on and who you then perceive to be racists, whether they are or not. As my mother always said, it takes two to tango! Attacking white people for perceived racism does, in fact and for obvious reasons, make that person more likely to get ticked off at black people as well and perceive them as attacking whites for no reason, and more likely to make people think that blacks are exaggerating their suffering, so if you honestly want discrimination to decrease and not increase, it takes two to tango, we have to support people like Boyega and support leading roles for POC and less stereotyping, and journalists and prominent figures / representatives of minority of female / female minority groups and feminists and any other similar movements have to stop attacking and generalizing to large groups of people that represent something like a fandom or a subculture, or if it's just a group of plain old "White" people, at even the tiniest hint of a racial bias, especially since the public and companies and government take social media extremely seriously now and it is so easy to target someone for a smear campaign, almost too easy. Think about it, there's nothing better than a rival having some kind of "racist" text message to get them out of the way, political correctness could be used for nefarious purposes as well. At the end, people will probably hate this and reply, it's not what people want to hear typically, and frankly this is too long for anyone to read in full and I'm going all over the place... but even if people did read it, my problem with this kind of thing is the fear of being thought of as the dreaded "R' word so people would be petrified of joining our discussion anyway, let alone choose my side or your side or agree with both of us, and no one will be able to apply sound logic to anything I said and prove it definitively wrong either. Thank you and I didn't mean to sound hostile, it was all stream of consciousness and I meant every word, the negative and the positive towards your arguments, hope it was coherent!
     
    #6 PondaBaba, Sep 1, 2015
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  7. Trevor

    Trevor Rebellion Arms Supplier
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    Well now......hmmm, where do I start;

    Ok, when I saw this thread 10 minutes ago, I was mortified about what I was going to find as I read through it. I honestly was ready to lock it like a fortress and even delete it forever, as this is a fragile subject that has a tendency to veer immediately off course into the swamp because people can't have this conversation without raising their voices.

    This subject strikes a sour note with me in several ways...some background: I was born into and raised surrounded by racism in the American West, in a small town (literally) bordering a Native-American Indian Reservation. The racism was a fact of life, every breath of every day, and it made me feel ill. The racism there (from both sides of the line) was/is comparable to (or worse than) the perceived racism in the American South...and it can be sickening and terrifying.

    When I was old enough, I ran away from it out into the world and was faced with this social issue again in different forms...towards (and from) different people. As @Rebo said, it is something that will define you as a human being...good, bad, or otherwise. Ultimately it defined me as well, as I live back in the same area 35 years later after having seen the world. Upon my return, my views on the issue are different in some ways, and yet the same in others...but with a better social understanding of it.

    Racism has made me a better person, a better human being, for having experienced it, and ironically I'm almost thankful for having had the experience, as that experience "in the belly of the beast", will give you an understanding of racism that others will never get...and it'll make you smarter about the world.

    That being said, I'll let you go with this thread. You all...have an intelligent conversation, with no rock throwing, mud slinging, name calling....none of it. As a "social experiment" here, let us all sit at the round table and see if we can have a discussion....and not a fight. Fair enough?? :)

    If this goes off course, there is a "REPORT" button that must be pushed....and we'll come running.

    Proceed....
     
    #7 Trevor, Sep 1, 2015
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  8. Trooper

    Trooper Rebel General

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    You're right. We do need more nuanced forms of discussion about this topic (on all sides) and don't worry. I don't think anyone's going to call you a racist, or dismiss your thoughts at all (In fact I'm rereading to see if there isn't anything that I missed). And I greatly respect you for your input :)
    Don't worry, no one will be upset, this is a discussion. We can discuss like adults. And yes, I want everyone's input on this.

    And you're right, people shouldn't have to undergo sensitivity training to adhere to an (and I admit) US-centric ideology of Political correctness. But, I do think its important to have a space like this open for others (including you, and people who respectfully disagree with me and others) to speak. I can clearly see that this is a topic you're passionate about, you wouldn't have written the above post if it weren't, right?

    I again, I do emphasize with you on the "gagging" aspect, and the being silent in a discussion, and feeling as though you're simply not allowed to speak (I have to deal with those very real things in life, and even in America there are places where mentioning this kind of topic is dangerous.


    I'm learning just as much as everyone else (especially the idea that race, and the ideology is not just composed of one ideology (from my perspective, a US-centric one). And you do bring up important points. How political correctness can be misused. I know this for a fact. Speaking from personal experience, there were many people who only voted for him for the ability to not have to examine themselves. There have been instances in my life where people have told me (people of all races) that they merely voted for him due to his color (and others did it simply so that they could proclaim how forward thinking/nonracist they are)

    And, looking back, my original wording was one-sided, and I do apologize, discussions aren't fair unless everyone gets a chance to speak (right?) And yes, I encourage all voice to speak (including ones outside of the US/Europe. We're here to discuss all aspects.

    Now, onto Gamergate (and I must confess, I'm not a gamer, and I've only heard of it in passing) could you please post the article you mentioned, I'm having a hard time locating it.

    Now, I understand your concerns for perceived racism, and I'm not disputing it. In fact, I would like a little more background on your views of to make sure I am getting the contextual picture (I want to analyze it further). I do want to ask though, where does this come from? What are your personal experiences with it. No judgment, I just want to understand it a little more.

    And you're right we do need to support all kinds of diversity, but my question is, are we? And I guess this isn't really the kind of question I should be asking on a Star WArs forum, but still, I think it should be asked. And this is just coming from my personal experience with media (and literature as a form of media). I never really believed we could have books about scifi/fantasy that was written by people of color. It wasn't really something I thought consciously about until I reached my twenties, and began to critically look at my own reading habits. Lately I've ben doing my best to support as many writers of color that I (and my wallet) can. (Note: I'd recommend the anthology Griots: A Sword and Soul Anthology it's really great. And if anyone has any recommendations I'd love to hear them) It's hard to find characters of color (any color, really ) out there.

    I do have a question for, do you think fanfiction (and other fanworks) could be considered somewhat representative of fandom, in some small way (And this question is for anyone who wishes to answer). I only ask because I know that fanfiction/fanart is a great way to get people (all kinds of people) interested in a fandom that they wouldn't other wise be interested in. Do you think (and this may be me projecting again, and if so I do apologize) that fanfiction writing, and the writing of people of color within those narratives can be seen as a form on inclusivity? This may seem like a strange question (especially if you and others do not care for fanworks). Personally, I (and some others I know in different fandoms) believe so, but I want to make sure I get as many different voices on that particular aspect as I can.

    And let me pose another question to those who do subscribe to that ideology, would fanart do the same thing? Now, I'm not advocating that everyone do fanart/fanfiction of a person of color (I'm not, I promise) I just want other's input.

    I do apologize for project a little too much, however, I do like that we, and others are able to discuss this.
     
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  9. *Definetly Not A Sith Lord*

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    Gotta agree with @Trevor . I am a teenager and I am made fun of/annoyed by people that don't understand something that is really important:everybody is different. I really like your thread @Trooper so I will tell about myself. Since I went to school I was often bullied(not physically). I have Asian roots and I live in Poland. People would come ask me if I'm Korean/Chinease/Japanese /Tai and then say things like Ching-Chang-Chong/Konichiwa and other words. At first it really bothered me. I didn't tell anyone.Telling a teacher wouldn't help. The teacher would just tell the person that it is rude and he should apologize.He would continue anyway.Eventually I did the right thing:ignoring them. Then(when I was 10) I would ignore them.Them being stupid(believe me) they thought I couldn't speak Polish(althought I was 10 back then,how could I go to school for 3 years without knowing the language,this is beyond me). One of the most offensive thing I heard was: How can Asians play hide-and-seek if they look the same!!! Almost nobody would believe me if I said that we don't look all the same(similar,BUT NOT THE SAME). Later when somebody said something stupid in a racist way(,,what's the difference between Chinease and Koreans,they look the same") I could easily say this:What's the difference between Monaco and Poland?They have the same flag(for those that don't know,Poland's flag upside down is the flag of Monaco). Being made fun of can either make your life miserable OR make you stronger,more difficult to hurt you(with words). I'll like to mention that one of my parents is Polish and the other is Asian.Som I'm not an emigrant and that in the country I spend my first few years(in Asia) I wasn't considered Asian by people and in Poland the people don't consider me as Polish.Too all people that are being made fun of for being black/white, having different color of hair etc. don't delve into it. Fight,proove that you are this good or better that them!Usually people that do make fun of people in a racist way are not to smart...
     
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  10. Trooper

    Trooper Rebel General

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    I'm really happy you found inner strength. What you said really struck a chord with me because as a black American I understand what it means to be at the crossroards of a two different cultures. Growing up I never really embraced black culture (hip hop/rap) due to the negative association it would give me.

    And I've been doing more research on Europe and their discussion on race, and it intersects at a lot of different points that America just does not have. I've been trying to understand why, (and please, correct me if I'm wrong) and then I realized that racism does also have something to do with things like place, and nationality. Is that correct? I never thought that it could be so complex.

    And PondaBaba, I would love it if you could give me more explanation on what it means to be called "racist" in America. Looking over your post, I never really understood, or thought about what it meant to be labeled a "racist". How exactly does it make you feel? Why do white people (in America) go on the defensive when called that? I would love some context on it as I think it could be really important for understanding different view points on race in the US. (And if other people in the US are reading, please free to chime in. All voices are welcomed as long as their respectful :)
     
  11. *Definetly Not A Sith Lord*

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    You are right.Nationality and place is has something to do with racism. I bet if I was Spanish,English or French I wouldn't have been made fun of for being one of the free nationalities in Poland.Highly doubt it. Also I would like to mention I also don't embrace my culture(from my own decision) .Never liked the Asian music for example but one of my colleagues played that music to annoy me. As I see you're 23 so you experienced it not that long time ago. Remember!Don't delve in!We have to be strong. We are people that much as the people around us.We look different but our hearts are the same!
     
  12. ig89

    ig89 Rebelscum

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    I understand that the situation in the US is a lot different from Europe. I guess it's much more of a sensitive subject there. Earlier you said 'colored people' would be an insult in ur country, but it's probably the most polite way we say it here :p. With race mixing I mean people living together with all kinds of different nationalities and races. For example: Amsterdam 20 years ago was cozy, fun, personal, ppl knew eachother, u could fraternize on every corner of the city so to speak. There were a couple immigrants but they were just part of the community and noone ever talked about racism. It just wasn't a subject back then.
    Now, there is 200 different nationalities living in Amsterdam. It's WAY too packed, completely not personal anymore. Native Dutch people are leaving the city and are 'outnumbered' now. It's a terrible feeling to not feel at home anymore in ur own country. And no, not everyone feels this way in my country, but a lot of people do. There are quite some people who want to welcome everyone here with open arms, but they are a minority. And so what happens when 200 nationalities are packed together? The community devides. There is no mixing now. Turks hang with Turks. Moroccans hang with moroccans. Black people hang with black people and natives hang with natives. There is only friction and dissidence: Europe's culture clash. Because of all this, there is now the widespread opinion that multiculturalism in Europe has FAILED, but there is no turning back.

    The Netherlands has a very extensive healthcare and welfare system. EVERYONE can get a free monthly paycheck from the government to make a living if u don't have a job. This causes many immigrants to come here. And once they started to come, and more and more came, racism became a subject. I don't even really know what happened that caused it to be a subject but it just did. Now, we've had to change product names, simply because it had the word 'black' in it. The one thing I'm most mad about, is that we are in the proces of changing my most beloved national tradition, because certain people feel there are aspects of racism in it. U see now how it's changed my country and still changing it.

    One of the biggest political parties in my country started as a '1 issue party': To fight against the islamisation of The Netherlands and to stop the gigantic flood of immigrants. This may give u an indication of how serious people feel about it. And this is a phenomenom that occurs all across Western Europe. Especially now with the situation in the Middle East. Western Europe is just flooding at the moment, more than ever. Muslims are the group that most of Western Europe has a problem with. They want mosques everywhere, they always complain they hate it here, but at the same time I'm paying their welfare check and I have to look at mosques and headscarfs everywhere. Even thirth and fourth generation muslims speak rubbish Dutch, because they care more to learn Turkish or Arabic as their first language. Also I'm sure u heard that terrorism is a BIG topic now in Europe with the recent developments in France. Also many of 'our' young muslims want to leave Western Europe to fight among their 'brothers(aka terrorists)' in the middle east, the so called jihadists. But frankly, my government doesn't let them go but lets them stay here, like ticking timebombs. Our intelligence agency is doing a good job at monitoring them and is preventing A LOT of attacks. However, it's just a matter of time till they manage to strike here too.

    One of my traumatic experiences was when I got beaten by an immigrant as a kid for simply 'looking at him'.

    Anyway, note that I'm talking quite generalistic here and that there are plenty of immigrants who do adapt, work hard and contribute. I also have nothing against the people as individuals. I'm not 'above' any of them. I just fear for what my country will look like in 50 years.
     
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  13. Admiral Petty

    Admiral Petty Force Sensitive

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    Very well put Rebo, it's almost like you hit on one of the main themes of Star Wars, you know, things like rising above our darker tendencies and trying to live an enlightened life, despite the fact that its easier and more seductive to embrace our already present darker desires.

    Truer words have never been said my friend.

    As for Trooper, your posts have been very excellently put together so far in this thread and I'm glad you started it. Racism is indeed a problem all over the world, both in fandom and out. In order to have racism however, we have to have something damaging at the root, namely prejudice has to exist first. Prejudice is really the heart of tons of bad things in the world. I would actually like to delve a bit deeper into prejudice not just respecting racism, but how it can affect things negatively from more serious matters like racism and misogyny all the way down to minor matters of fandom and opinions in general.

    A quick summary from wikipedia:

    Prejudice is prejudgment, or forming an opinion before becoming aware of the relevant facts of a case. The word is often used to refer to preconceived, usually unfavorable, judgments toward people or a person because of gender, political opinion, social class, age, disability, religion, sexuality, race/ethnicity, language, nationality, or other personal characteristics. In this case, it refers to a positive or negative evaluation of another person based on their perceived group membership.[1] Prejudice can also refer to unfounded beliefs[2] and may include "any unreasonable attitude that is unusually resistant to rational influence".[3]Gordon Allportdefined prejudice as a "feeling, favorable or unfavorable, toward a person or thing, prior to, or not based on, actual experience".[4]

    The opening paragraph of the article sums it up pretty well, but only really scratches the surface.

    One of the most damaging things about prejudice is that it shuts down logical and honest thinking on a matter, it really is the enemy of reason and discussion, instead being the friend of ignorance and intolerance.

    Lets first examine it as regards how we view and treat other individuals. Its safe to say that just about every person in the world has experienced prejudice of some sort. The areas I highlighted in red are what we most commonly think of when we think of prejudice, and rightly so, because they are usually the root of the most damaging and dangerous types of prejudice, things like racism, misogyny, religious oppression, etc. These types of prejudice are so dangerous because they allow people to classify huge swaths of the population in certain way(generally not positive), making it easier to justify oppression or preferential treatment on a large scale.

    As far as racism is concerned when considering prejudice, it is easily one of the most deadly and oppressive forms. Look no further than the history here in U.S. to see just how damaging it can be, while you're at it, go ahead and look up the history of apartheid in South Africa. Of course the most famous and often cited example of this is what happened to the Jewish people during the Holocaust, generally considered history's greatest atrocity of that sort, sadly not the only example of genocide on a large scale. For another heartbreaking example one can always look at what happened in Rwanda in 1994.

    Then we have things like religious oppression and national prejudice that have also led to countless deaths.

    However those are just the most extreme results that can come from those types of prejudice. Things on that scale aren't really happening in most countries at the moment, but the effects of prejudice can still be extremely damaging in other ways, for racism for instance, just read Trooper's post as well as the other posts in this thread.

    Having lived in NW Montana my whole life, I can honestly say that there isn't a great deal of diversity of race in the area. I do have friends who are Asian, Black, Latino and Native American, however the population in my area is overwhelmingly white. Racism doesn't seem to be much of a problem, but seeing as how we don't have a great deal of racial diversity in the area, there probably aren't many reasons for major issues to crop up in the first place. I have experienced prejudice, but mainly in regards to my religion, and not on an extreme scale.

    As far as prejudice in most fandoms go, misogyny is actually one of the areas where we see prejudice the most. It boggles my mind to think of the examples of misogyny that we see in everything from gaming to comic books. I could go on and on about it, but for brevity's sake I won't, as Trooper said earlier, it really needs a thread of its own due to the far reaching implications it continues to have on many areas of fandom.

    We see prejudice in all the other areas listed in the wikipedia blurb as well, social class prejudice and so on. Books have been written on each of these subjects, however I would like to address the orange highlighted words other personal characteristics. This is an area that I imagine a good portion of Star Wars fans fall into, namely through something that often starts in school, being labeled a nerd, geek, dork, etc. because one likes subjects like Star Wars that are generally considered "nerdy" by the general public(thankfully that mindset is starting to change more and more as the years go on). I was definitely teased about this, in grade school in particular. You also have other prejudices such as those against those labeled as jocks, goths, emos, etc.

    Worse yet, you even have petty divisions between those specified prejudices. In nerds we have divisions like Marvel vs DC, Star Wars vs Star Trek, Microsoft vs Sony vs Nintendo and so on(we see similar divisions in groups labeled jocks as well). Often times these are trivial differences, more jokingly referenced than seriously, which can be fun as well.

    Take this video for example


    That scene from the movie was obviously done in good fun, poking fun at decades-old the rivalry between Star Wars and Star Trek fans. The sad thing, however, is that I have actually seen fans on both sides of silly issues like that, that are dead serious when they say or do things like that, embarrassing the more reasonable fans in those particular fandoms. Worse yet, we even see divisions between the fans of particular fandoms. This being a Star Wars forum for instance, its easy to see the unreasonable statements that are made by groups like PT haters and lovers, EU haters and lovers, etc. I'm not trying to say that it is unreasonable for some one to feel one way or the other about those kinds of subjects, but it can be done in a way that is constructive and actually adds to the conversation, rather than poking at the other side for no good reason(and if you examine why you actually feel the way you do, you might end up having a change of opinion, or at least acknowleding that there are actually some good things to be said about something that you don't like as a whole).

    That actually brings me to my final point, how prejudice can keep us from enjoying good things that we would love if it weren't for our own prejudices. This is the area of prejudice that is least damaging to others, but is still keeping us from enjoying some great things around us. I'll actually use myself for a lot of these examples.

    The first example I'll use is music, since my love of music is my only hobby/interest that really competes with and sometimes wins out over Star Wars, to say I am passionate about music(listening to it or playing it) is really an understatement. These days I am very open-minded about music and what styles that I may enjoy, I am a very Rock and Roll-centric guy, but these days you will also find genres like Jazz, Hip Hop, Rap, Reggae, Techno, Dubstep, Reggae, Classical, Folk, World, the occassional radio friendly Pop tune, and so on in my collection(not to mention all the sub-genres in each of these styles). However when I first became passionate about music, I was very narrow minded in my appreciation of any style other than Rock, even quite narrow minded in what types of Rock I would listen to.

    Due to a rivalry I had with an associate who only listened to what was popular at the moment, Emo music being popular at the moment, I particularly hated Emo music, and frankly any kind of Rock music that I perceived to have wimpy and/or girly singers. But looking back, I have to admit that a lot of the hate that I had of that style of music was because of its association with that particular individual. Hearing some of that music again years later, I can honestly confirm that I don't like that music, but I can also honestly state that most of it isn't as bad as I made it out to be at the time.

    Worse yet, because of my prejudice against what I perceived to be wussy singers, I refused to listen to a group that I really did enjoy, that group being Silversun Pickups. When I first heard them I thought wow, this chick is a great singer and I love the guitar playing too. One day I decided to look up one of their music videos and was shocked to discover that the girl that I thought had a great voice was actually a guy.

    At the time I immediately rejected the band because of my preconceived notions about girly singers and their connections to the Emo music that I hated so much at the time. About a year later however, I heard another one of their songs on the radio and I had to admit that I enjoyed it. I finally sat down and thought to myself, does it really matter what the singer looks or sounds like if I like the final product? The obvious answer was no, but because of my stubborn prejudice, I missed out on enjoying a band that I love for over a year, and would have missed out on forever if I hadn't given up my silly prejudice. Ever since then I have only continued to broaden my musical horizons, and thus, my enjoyment of music as a whole.

    Another area of fandom that is incredibly prone to preconceived notions and prejudices is that of Comic Books. I can not exaggerate just how narrow minded some comic book fans can be when it comes to seeing any kinds of changes, minor or major, to their favorite character's status quo. Often when these changes occur, it is because the current status quo had gotten stale and things needed a shakeup. Granted, not all of these changes are good, or make sense for the characters for that matter, but even if they do, there will be a vocal group of fans, not always tiny, that are decrying the changes(which are often temporary anyhow), stating that they are the worst thing to ever happen to the character, and how the character is ruined forever. Any comic book fan that has been reading them for long knows however that each creative team is going to try and put their own spin on a character, as well as the fact that things will eventually go back to the status quo more or less anyway. Sadly, I have known many comic book fans that have missed out on some truly great stories because of their own prejudices regarding the material.

    Lastly lets examine my prejudice towards an aspect of Star Wars that I did not like at first, namely the television show The Clone Wars. When the show first debuted in theaters I was very underwhelmed, and the first season didn't do much to dispel the problems I had with the show, worse yet, one of the EU book series that I was reading was cancelled due to some events that transpired in the show, at that point I turned my back on the show. Frankly, my response was mostly based upon actual dislike of what I was seeing rather than prejudice at that point. However as the seasons went on, I kept hearing good things about the show, about how it just kept getting better and better, etc. However I refused to give it another chance for a long time, not until the final season was winding down actually. The constant good press the show was receiving as well as finding out that Dave Filoni had directed episodes of another one of my favorite shows(Avatar The Last Airbender) finally convinced me to give it another chance. I am definitely glad that I did, TCW is now one of my favorite shows, bringing much needed depth and character development that the PT was lacking, additionally allowing me to see some of the good points in the PT, even though I still don't like it much as a whole. I would never have gotten to enjoy TCW however, had I not put aside my silly fan prejudices.

    All of these examples as well as the previous ones involve the blue highlighted words "any unreasonable attitude that is unusually resistant to rational influence". Those words describe any type of prejudice quite well really.

    My real thinking on prejudice is that it is a truly negative thing that definitely needs to be rooted out of our personalities, particularly when it comes to the more serious matters, but even regarding the less serious matters, the more you rid yourself of it, the more you will enjoy life.
     
    #13 Admiral Petty, Sep 2, 2015
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  14. Trooper

    Trooper Rebel General

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    Your entire post is very interesting (I had to shorten it when I quoted)

    Anyway, a lot of what you said is the exact thing that is happening in America? Granted, the feelings aren't really the same because the US is a very big place, but I do hear (from both minority and majority citizens) that people need to assimilate into society. And that's also a very interesting toic in America (and in the black American community as a whole) because "assimilation" in the eyes of many black americans is synonymous with abandoning your culture (which I can clearly see is something you and your people fear).

    A little background for non-Americans, black America is very proud of the culture it created (and people all around the world can see it from Hip Hop videos, to rap, to dance moves, to modern American lingo). That was all stuff influenced heavily by black americans. Now what's interesting is that in America, when it comes to actually taking part in this culture (when you yourself are black/ African American) it becomes very dangerous. I'll give you an example, if a black person were to walk around dressing like Kanye West (he's a hip hop artist, his music is very popular) the chances of him getting stopped by the police, or of people thinking he was a criminal increases. If a white person were to do the same thing (wear the same clothes, speak the same lingo etc...), those same consequences may not apply. That's not to say this hypothecal white person won't get in trouble (he may very well) but the chances of that happening are minimal. See, with black americans taking part in a culture they created can be dangerous/difficult it and makes us upset when we see others enjoying something that is close to our culture and us not getting the same benefit. So, I can emphasize with the notion of losing your culture in that respect.

    And on the personal matter, I completely understand where it comes from. And honestly, those feelings are something that many black americans feel towards our own criminal justice system/police (and that's something I'll have to exlain in another post.) All of these negative ideas come from a need for self-preservation. Thank you for sharing that.

    And my question (which is for everyone now, all people of all nationalities/races/colors etc...) when does "self-preservation" veer off into something else? And to give us all more context, I'll use myself and my own need for selfpreservation as an example. Now, it's true that a lot of black americans are wary around police/feel that the criminal justice system in America is unfair, and we as a culture teach our children to be hyper aware of the police, and very careful around them. It's not so much that we hate the police, it's more so that we want our children (and our family memebers/friends) to come home safely. But when does this self-preservation, turn into outright distrust? I mean, black americans do not trust our criminal justice system at all, lots of times black americans won't even call the police for fear being attacked/ridiculed/harassed etc...
     
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  15. ig89

    ig89 Rebelscum

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    Very difficult topic I think. Sadly we have all been granted 1 mind and '1 point of view'. It's hard to fully understand someone elses situation and feelings. From my point of view police is represented more in areas where there is more crime. Purely based on statistics. To say it boldly: maybe black people who dress like Kanye West are simply represented more in crime statistics than black people who dress neat. I can understand that u are wary around the police, as I am also actually, but I also think police are wary around groups of people that are represented above avarage in crime statistics. Hereby a spiral is created where everyone is wary toward eachother. I can understand that is difficult.

    However, regarding that whole police subject, which believe me, it's a topic here aswell: I have a very down to earth opinion about it. There is absolutely nothing to fear from police as long as u listen to them, are polite to them, don't resist or contradict them. Just do what they say and be done with it. Every time I see a video online on police brutality it's always an all oud brawl and people shouting and screaming like madness. I don't understand this. If u behave civilized and do whatever the authority tells u there is nothing to fear or to be wary about.

    So now if u don't mind I have a personal question for u. What excactly do u teach ur children regarding the police? Do u tell them to stay away from them or do u tell them to listen to them and be polite to them, even if they disagree with them? Or maybe something else.

    Sorry if I'm delving too much into the police subject it's a whole other world of problems I think.
     
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  16. Rebo

    Rebo Nearsighted Whill Guardian
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    First, kudos for your patience and friendliness on this topic. You've been far kinder in your responses than I would be able to be. :)

    But to answer your question, any act of cultural self-preservation that infringes on the rights of others in any way is an act of prejudice. Any act of physical self-preservation that enacted under only an assumption of ill-will due to a person's skin color, religion, creed, or sexual orientation is a hate crime.

    Specifically on the cultural self-preservation, you, me or anyone else has a right to attempt to preserve their own cultural heritage. But if doing so, impacts someone else's ability to do the same, then you are infringing on their rights based on their own cultural heritage. If someone of a different cultural background wants to move into my neighborhood or country and practice their own religion or display their cultural heritage, I have no right to stop them. I only have a right to continue to display my own cultural heritage. They can't try to stop me and I can't try to stop them. And why would you want to?

    It all comes down to a lack of empathy. People who are prejudiced lack the capacity to empathize with people who are different than they are. They see things only from their perspective and forget that others are trying to preserve their religious or cultural heritage as well. How would you like being told you can't wear something, go somewhere, or do something because it is different than what others do (that's the general "you", not you in particular).

    As an American, I'm a strong believer that culture meshes are a good thing. I'm a mutt of 6 or more nationalities and heritages formed from multiple generations of immigrants. I am proud of all of those aspects of me. And my kids are even more diverse in their heritage having married a woman of different background. I hope my kids do the same.

    Lettuce is tasty. So are tomatoes. But a salad made of many components and tastes is far better. The lettuce and tomatoes are still there and you can appreciate them and remember them on their own. But by mixing you elevate them to something more than what they were. The more cultures mix, the better an appreciation for the world we get. Exposure to knowledge of things other than our own limited experience is always a good thing.
     
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  17. Trooper

    Trooper Rebel General

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    Not at all, it's a very good question to ask. Black Americans teach their kids to do everything the police tell them to. They're taught to kep their hands on the driving wheel if your pulled over. They're taught to be as compliant as possible, and even then, sometimes harrassment is still a big issue.

    And it si so interesting that you bring up the style of dress, because that is ia big topic in black America. We often aske ourselves, "How will I be perceived? Lots of black people in America go into their closets in the morning (and I am one of them) and look at what they have to wear, and have to decide how they want to be perceived, and a lot of the times it comes as a cost of someone's cultural identity. Here's an article about it, if you or anyone else is still interested. Speaking from personal experience, I myself dress in polo shirts and jeans (which are often viewed a nonthreatening by a lot of people ) But what's also interesting is that black americans who view other black americans. When a black American dresses in a way that is seen as "alright" by mainstream society, they are often accused of betraying their culture, "acting white" (and that's a very loaded term for black americans) or being an "Uncle Tom" (another loaded term which I'll explain when I have more time)

    And it's also more than just clothing. It's also things like hairstyles, and the way we speak, and other factors as well. If you have any more questions please, don't hesitate..
     
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  18. powerup1

    powerup1 Clone Commander

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    I find it very hard to respond to this post without that response being personal in nature, that it is something I try to avoid in these forums. I just will say that it is a clear illustration of how some people justify racism as being something that the victims of it ( most people would not tolerate someone saying that a rape victim that wear a short skirt was asking for it. I know that that is an extreme example, but it speaks to the tendency to blame the victim) mostly bring on themselves and that they should just get over it.
     
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