1. Due to the increased amount of spam bots on the forum, we are strengthening our defenses. You may experience a CAPTCHA challenge from time to time.
    Dismiss Notice
  2. Notification emails are working properly again. Please check your email spam folder and if you see any emails from the Cantina there, make sure to mark them as "Not Spam". This will help a lot to whitelist the emails and to stop them going to spam.
    Dismiss Notice
  3. IMPORTANT! To be able to create new threads and rate posts, you need to have at least 30 posts in The Cantina.
    Dismiss Notice
  4. Before posting a new thread, check the list with similar threads that will appear when you start typing the thread's title.
    Dismiss Notice

Disney / Canonical Accurate Portrayal?

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by YubNubBub, Jan 4, 2018.

Tags:
  1. YubNubBub

    YubNubBub Rebel General

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2015
    Posts:
    371
    Likes Received:
    697
    Trophy Points:
    3,967
    Credits:
    2,301
    Ratings:
    +1,141 / 192 / -358
    There is a misconception here why people are so upset. Simply stated, Disney is ignoring canon over and over, and making new conflicting canon.

    How so you ask?

    I will give some brief examples:

    • Mind Trick. Every mind trick done up until Rey had a hand gesture. Rey's did not. Fact: Canon Ignored or Rewritten

    • Force Progression. All examples of every powerful force user showed a gradual progression. Rey's simply did not.

    • The Destruction of the Empire. By all accounts from Canon, there should have been no "Resistance". The First Order should have been the "Resistance" given a New Republic has formed. (Which by the way would have made for a fantastic movie, cornering the First Order by the Republic and them fighting ferociously to survive, which could have showcased the brutality of Kylo Ren)

    • The setup of Han and Leia deep love plot through Episode 5-6. That was canon, and completely disregarded as a fling during the making of Episode 7. Another canonical timeline disregarded.



    These are but a few examples. I am sure many others can come up with many others. I am also sure there will be someone who wants to defend the deterrents as "new" or "additions", which I sharply contend they are a disregard, as do many others.

    We can debate until we are blue in the face.

    The fact remains you will not be able to convince us otherwise, we could cite examples all day long.

    The view generally held is Disney has disregarded the Canon from Episode 1-6. Since Canon was disregarded, how could we ever accept the Sequel trilogy as our fanbase Canon? We cannot.

    You can spin all day long, but there has been a complete disregard for SW as an art and instead pandering to the most basic senses of surprise, newness, and theatrics.

    Thank you.
     
    • Like x 7
    • Dislike x 4
    • Great Post x 3
    • Disagree x 3
    • Trolling x 2
    • Wise x 1
    • Informative x 1
    • Old News x 1
    • Unoriginal x 1
  2. Bendak Starkiller

    Bendak Starkiller Force Sensitive

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2016
    Posts:
    917
    Likes Received:
    5,239
    Trophy Points:
    14,242
    Credits:
    4,007
    Ratings:
    +5,988 / 14 / -2
    Lucas brought Darth Maul back to life.
    How is that art and not disregarding what came before?
     
    • Like Like x 6
    • Funny Funny x 2
  3. McDiarmid

    McDiarmid Force Sensitive

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2016
    Posts:
    3,481
    Likes Received:
    3,898
    Trophy Points:
    12,517
    Credits:
    6,786
    Ratings:
    +7,941 / 410 / -137
    They are not worth to tight the shoes of Mr George Lucas let alone compare.
    They are not worth to speak his name...well that is actually their practice already.
     
    • Funny Funny x 2
    • Like Like x 1
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  4. YubNubBub

    YubNubBub Rebel General

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2015
    Posts:
    371
    Likes Received:
    697
    Trophy Points:
    3,967
    Credits:
    2,301
    Ratings:
    +1,141 / 192 / -358
    First this thread isn't about Lucas. It is about Disney. Second, he supported that with a BACKSTORY which Disney has not done.

    They are not the same.
     
    • Trolling x 2
    • Like x 1
    • Informative x 1
    • Funny x 1
    • Hopeful x 1
    • Clouded x 1
  5. Bendak Starkiller

    Bendak Starkiller Force Sensitive

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2016
    Posts:
    917
    Likes Received:
    5,239
    Trophy Points:
    14,242
    Credits:
    4,007
    Ratings:
    +5,988 / 14 / -2
    Well ok.

    If Disney gave a backstory for all of this stuff, would that suffice?
     
    • Like Like x 4
    • Hopeful Hopeful x 1
  6. YubNubBub

    YubNubBub Rebel General

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2015
    Posts:
    371
    Likes Received:
    697
    Trophy Points:
    3,967
    Credits:
    2,301
    Ratings:
    +1,141 / 192 / -358
    Perhaps, perhaps not.

    What kind of backstory could you give to a force user like Rey to be able to use powers so miraculously? Even the Chosen One had gradual progression and had to be trained years under tutelage. All force users in canon have extensive training. How exactly could you backstory that?
     
    • Great Post x 4
    • Like x 3
    • Funny x 1
    • Pessimistic x 1
    • Trolling x 1
  7. Snazel

    Snazel Force Sensitive

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2015
    Posts:
    992
    Likes Received:
    2,982
    Trophy Points:
    11,042
    Credits:
    4,272
    Ratings:
    +4,185 / 195 / -61
    Nuts to accuracy.

    And if all canon does is restrain, constrain and limit the vision and artistic interpretation of art, then why even have it?

    Canon adds flavor, it does not add rules, it does not quantify, measure or restrict, if it does, then it's getting in the way and needs to be abandoned. Which is exactly what happens to all "canon" in these franchises. Given enough time, all of it has to be retooled and rebooted.

    Ever read "Crisis on Infinite Earths"? It was really the first comic that realized canon can weigh you down, hurt your brand and kill your artistic vision. So you hit CTRL-ALT-DEL in interesting, creative ways and you move on to newer, higher ground.

    Canon is completely the wrong word to use really, because it's not sacred, none of it. Particularly the comics, novels and cartoons, they can and will be abandoned as the brand's future continues. They are fun, they are illuminating, but once you start using them to judge the quality of art, they've extended far beyond their purpose.

    Art isn't obedient. Art isn't constrained by the past. Art follows only function and form, not rules.

    It's not canon, it's called that because nerds are self-important, pedantic and officious at times (myself included). It's BACK STORY, it's interpretation and it's entertainment, but "canon" does not define art and should never ever constrain it. The fact some people insist that it should shows that they lack artistic temperament and view the franchise more like an encyclopedia of trivia and detail rather than art.

    Art is here to entertain, enlighten and ennoble us, not comply with all the fussy, pedantic detail embedded in a fan's Wiki.
     
    • Great Post x 8
    • Like x 4
    • Wise x 1
    • Friendly x 1
    • Disagree x 1
  8. YubNubBub

    YubNubBub Rebel General

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2015
    Posts:
    371
    Likes Received:
    697
    Trophy Points:
    3,967
    Credits:
    2,301
    Ratings:
    +1,141 / 192 / -358
    Some of us find the beauty in detail. Some of us find the art in detail.

    George Lucas did so much in fact, he continued to pour over his creation tweaking it, improving it, until he thought it perfected. Much like a man builds a machine, a rough draft, GL continued to edit his creation until his masterpiece was finished. Thus we have the Special Editions.

    Can you imagine trying to watch 1-6 without the Special Editions? Yet those same voices who criticized never understood that to George that was his art, his children.

    What you state about art, is simply your perspective on what you believe art to be. To us, Art is following the form of the original paintings, and rightly so, which pays homeage to the original painter, George Lucas.

    We are not spoiled. We are simply paying our homage to the Creator of SW, instead of betraying the very foundation as so many are apt to do.

    Art is the flowing of the entire song, as done with Episodes 1-6. Art is the masterpiece completed properly and sung beautifully, all notes.
     
    • Like x 2
    • Great Post x 2
    • Wise x 1
    • Clouded x 1
    • Disagree x 1
    • Trolling x 1
  9. Ammianus Marcellinus

    Credits:
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    [​IMG]
     
    • Funny Funny x 5
    • Like Like x 1
    • Great Post Great Post x 1
    • Trolling Trolling x 1
  10. Solo

    Solo Rebel Official

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2015
    Posts:
    644
    Likes Received:
    1,452
    Trophy Points:
    8,017
    Credits:
    2,110
    Ratings:
    +2,746 / 48 / -20
    Oh look, someone bringing rationality to the discussion.

    Never thought I'd see the day.
     
    • Like Like x 4
    • Funny Funny x 1
    • Clouded Clouded x 1
    • Trolling Trolling x 1
  11. YubNubBub

    YubNubBub Rebel General

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2015
    Posts:
    371
    Likes Received:
    697
    Trophy Points:
    3,967
    Credits:
    2,301
    Ratings:
    +1,141 / 192 / -358
    Right, because it is rational to have Luke drink blue titty milk and then die from force exhaustion. It's also rationale to ignore a predecessor Corvette model when building a new Corvette, like ignoring previous canon and writing a new SW sequel series.

    Compleeetely rational.
     
    • Trolling Trolling x 6
    • Like Like x 3
    • Funny Funny x 1
    • Pessimistic Pessimistic x 1
  12. Zyloren

    Zyloren Clone Commander

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2017
    Posts:
    111
    Likes Received:
    189
    Trophy Points:
    452
    Credits:
    572
    Ratings:
    +288 / 14 / -5
    Constraint isn't always a bad thing...

    If it was RJ's artistic vision to have a super-man Leia use the Force to enter hyper-space and dive through the heart of a dying star in order to create a catastrophic detonation that obliterated the FO fleet... that might be perceived as very... "artistic" - but it's the kind of artistic that ought to be restrained.
    --- Double Post Merged, Jan 4, 2018, Original Post Date: Jan 4, 2018 ---
    He was clearly exhausted because he hadn't had his milk that morning (contains your recommended daily allowance of midichlorians in just one serving don't you know).
     
    • Funny Funny x 5
    • Like Like x 1
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  13. YubNubBub

    YubNubBub Rebel General

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2015
    Posts:
    371
    Likes Received:
    697
    Trophy Points:
    3,967
    Credits:
    2,301
    Ratings:
    +1,141 / 192 / -358
    The whole "ignore canon it is Art" arguement is flawed. SW was meant to flow like music, as a whole. You can't have a sour note that doesn't line up with the rest.
     
    • Like Like x 5
    • Clouded Clouded x 2
    • Great Post Great Post x 1
    • Funny Funny x 1
  14. A Concerned Fan

    Credits:
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0
    I agree, which is why I think we should get another ST. Disney should do a few versions and we get to pick which "work of art" we like best lol.
     
    • Funny Funny x 2
    • Like Like x 1
    • Original Original x 1
  15. Benjamin Lewis

    Benjamin Lewis Rebel Official

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2015
    Posts:
    669
    Likes Received:
    1,529
    Trophy Points:
    6,567
    Credits:
    2,612
    Ratings:
    +2,693 / 76 / -50
    Your version of canon is really.......something.
     
    • Great Post Great Post x 3
    • Like Like x 1
    • Funny Funny x 1
  16. YubNubBub

    YubNubBub Rebel General

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2015
    Posts:
    371
    Likes Received:
    697
    Trophy Points:
    3,967
    Credits:
    2,301
    Ratings:
    +1,141 / 192 / -358
    My version? Canon is by far "my version".

    Im curious, if I sold you a plastic car but last years model was complete and metal, high quality made, would you buy my plastic car?

    Because that is what is happening with the Sequel trilogy. Your buying a plastic facimile of SW and oddly, completely fine with it. Regardless of people pointing out the disservice it does from prior canon.

    My only logical conclusion is, there are many more SW fans now than before. They are casual fans willing to accept a casual and lazy production.
     
    • Like Like x 3
    • Dislike Dislike x 3
    • Trolling Trolling x 1
  17. Benjamin Lewis

    Benjamin Lewis Rebel Official

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2015
    Posts:
    669
    Likes Received:
    1,529
    Trophy Points:
    6,567
    Credits:
    2,612
    Ratings:
    +2,693 / 76 / -50
    Yes. Your version of canon.

    You just said because Leia and Han didn't have a happily-ever-after, canon was violated.

    You just said that since mind tricks have traditionally been done with a hand swipe, that doing one without a hand swipe is a violation of canon.

    In another thread, you said if someone in Star Wars senses darkness in an adult, instead of a child, that's a violation of canon.

    Honestly, you're full of bantha poodoo.
     
    • Like Like x 5
    • Wise Wise x 2
    • Great Post Great Post x 1
    • Clouded Clouded x 1
  18. Use the Falchion

    Use the Falchion Jedi Contrarian

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2015
    Posts:
    2,412
    Likes Received:
    10,443
    Trophy Points:
    90,167
    Credits:
    11,264
    Ratings:
    +12,033 / 26 / -10
    You're right, but for whose benefit is the hand motion for? The audience or the character? If it's the former, we didn't need it in TFA, because there was an audio cue. If it was for the character, Rey's hands were tied. The Jedi Mind Trick is magical hypnosis. Not all hypnosis is done with a pendant or a pocket watch or a ring or something on a string. Why does the Jedi Mind Trick have to be the same?

    Or here's another explanation. She uses the Jedi Mind Trick after Kylo Mind...Invades her. Who's to say that wasn't the moment Snoke created the Force Bond between the two? Snoke creates the Force Bond, Kylo reads Rey's feelings about Han and the Island, Rey gets Kylo's feelings about Darth Vader and pieces of his training.

    "Darkness rises, and Light to meet it." That explained it enough for me. What? You need more? Fine. Clearly, Yoda, Obi-Wan*, Sidious, and Kylo Ren are clearly average. The only ones that have shown progression are Luke, Rey, and Ezra.

    Sometimes people progress faster in the Force than others. And progression speed doesn't always mean strength. Look at Ezra - with a partially trained master Ezra progressed WAY faster than Luke ever did during the OT. Even when Luke had Yoda - aka access to the entirety of the knowledge of the Jedi Order. Ezra was trained faster, but people will still say Luke is stronger.

    Rey DID show progression in TLJ. It just took time to get there.

    The Force isn't a straight videogame/RPG knowledge increase = power increase.

    That's kind of what they were at the beginning of TFA. Nobody in-universe really cared about the FO before Starkiller Base**. They were thought to be a sort of crazy outlier, last stand (or dare I say "resistance"?) version of the Empire nobody expected to go anywhere.

    It would have been an interesting movie, with them cornering the FO at the beginning, but wouldn't we end up in the same place as we are now? Sure, the FO could escape in your version of Episode VII, but by Ep VIII, they still would have to have a MAJOR victory against your version of the New Republic, leaving the setting open for an all out brawl in your Episode IX.


    That wasn't disregarded AT ALL. It just showed that not all couples who love each other can survive differing life goals and tragic events. The love never faded, but their coping mechanisms pushed each other apart.


    Overall, doing something new or in a new way doesn't mean it's a disregard of old Canon. Disregarding Canon would be someone stating "You MUST wave your hand if you are to do the Jedi Mind Trick." Implication isn't the same as Canon.

    To each his or her own, but as you can see, I'm definitely on the opposite side of the fence as you.

    *Obi-Wan has been stated to be pretty average in the Force before (I don't remember if that's canon or not anymore though), but the point is that we saw his growth from Jedi to Knight to Master, and NONE of it was concerned with his Force Progression.

    ** "No one cared who I was until I put on the mask" ...sorry, the sentence I wrote really made me think of this line and I wanted to include it.
     
    • Great Post Great Post x 4
    • Like Like x 2
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • Original Original x 1
  19. YubNubBub

    YubNubBub Rebel General

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2015
    Posts:
    371
    Likes Received:
    697
    Trophy Points:
    3,967
    Credits:
    2,301
    Ratings:
    +1,141 / 192 / -358
    Nope... I'm really not... I'm just a FAN.

    I'll conceed the Han and Leia point, because stuff can happen. But the setup was... happily ever after.

    The hand gesture, true, all of it. It was always done, then ignored in the sequel trilogy.

    The sensing of darkness, I am going by what we know from Canon.

    But really that is only the tip of the iceburg.

    • If Leia can force pull herself back onto a ship, then ANY other jedi should be able to force pull themselves and defy laws of gravity on planets to get to more advantageous positioning......
    I'm gonna stop there. This is the most ludicrous thing they have done. The endless possibilities from such a decision, a bad decision. Force pull is common among Jedi, and now creating canonically that it can be done in reverse.

    The implications......... so every other Jedi had this ability from Ep1 through Clone Wars up to Ep6.... they can all "Force Fly/Pull" in reverse. What a bone head decision, now go back and rewatch all the movies all the clone wars episodes and see where a Jedi should have done this but didn't........

    What a load of bullocks and it shat straight on GL creation and SW in general. Yet your not outraged? This is ok? Supermen Jedi?

    I dare say if you support that and some of the other obvious attrocities then perhaps you should rethink your fandom. Because that is NOT SW you are supporting.
     
    • Like Like x 3
    • Trolling Trolling x 2
    • Old News Old News x 1
    • Dislike Dislike x 1
  20. BobRoss

    BobRoss Guest

    Credits:
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0
    It didn't outright destroy canon but many things in TLJ seem to require further explaining or it will conflict with earlier canonic works. Some of these "inconsistencies" could be explained in books and comics. I've heard people ask "We'll why isn't flying spaceships into other spacehips with lightspeed a thing", referring to the destruction of the Supremacy. A simple explaination would be more than enough to solve this problem. For example: The Raddus is a Mon Calamari ship. Mon Calamari ships in legends were repurposed underwater skyscrapers (Ackbar's ship is called "home one" for that reason). Usually a spaceships hulls are weak. They deflect damage via shields but they have no need for a sturdy hull due to the lack of pressure in space. The Raddus however was built underwater and was designed to sustain immense waterpressure which is why at lightspeed it turns into such a deadly projectile while the ship crashing against Vaders star destroyer in R1 did little to no damage.

    Other explainations for Canon inconsistencies are much harder to explain away. Luke's assasination attempt for example is a hard nut to crack. I have to admit I am still not quite happy with Luke considering to kill Kylo, even if it was only for a second. I mean his dad was a genocidal Sith who was second in command in a dictatorship that killed many of Luke's friends including his foster parents. It seems hard to believe he would consider killing a child in his sleep to a degree where he sneaks into the bedroom of Kylo and ignites the lightsaber. How about kicking him out of the academy? He sensed a tiny bit of good left in Vader and tried to save him. But he sensed a tiny bit of bad in Kylo and decided to kill him? Shouldn't his experiences in the OT make him believe even stronger not to give up on people no matter how lost they seem? I don't know. I was fine with the rest but this one scene felt really out of character.

    Rey's quick mastery of the force and her unmatched display of telekinesis are even more of an issue to me. Rey makes mastering the force look so easy everyone else in Canon looks like a kindergartener compared to her. I seriously hope it turns out that Rey is special in one way or another, the prime Jedi or something like that. Otherwise she will rank at no1 "strongest forceusers of all time"-lists for no reason other than being a nobody from Jakku. But hey, at least Daisy is cool with it...
     
    #20 BobRoss, Jan 4, 2018
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 4, 2018
    • Like Like x 4
    • Wise Wise x 1
Loading...

Share This Page