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Do We Need Finn Going Forward

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by Rayjefury, Nov 27, 2018.

  1. Rayjefury

    Rayjefury Rebel Official

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    I answered some of your detail responses in the dedicated Finn thread (because it was a debate about what his trajectory was). My question in this thread is where that trajectory takes him.

    For the sake of argument, let's say we all agree with everything you've said above. In particular this piece: He announces himself, for the first time, as part of the cause. He now CARES about it. He doesn't just want to run but he wants to fight.

    Ok if that's your view. Now what? The way TLJ handles his arc, his development's complete then right? He's finally stopped running. He's Resistance. So what is there to explore in EPIX? He fought against the FO and he infiltrated them in the previous 2 movies, if that's all he's going to do in EPIX why do we need to follow it? If he's going to do something more, where is the setup for it? It doesn't exist.

    All you (and everyone else) can do is speculate what might be next, because there has been nothing set up. As of right now, you really don't have an in-story reason to follow Finn. The best you might do based on existing metadata is to glue him at the hip with Rey for screen time. And I'd argue that is a pretty damning critique on how poorly his arc was handled in particular (but not limited to) TLJ.
     
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  2. Maximus

    Maximus Jedi General

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    excluding Ben/Kylo.. couldn't the same be said of every other character in the trilogy?
    and at this point in the OT (after ESB).. excluding Luke, couldn't the same be said of every other character in that trilogy?

    we have a whole entire movie coming in which any character could go in any kind of direction. i don't know if many realize this.. but Lando only had something like 15 minutes of screen time in the OT. you don't need 8 hours of movie time to tell a story or to see a certain character take a journey.

    also.. because TLJ carried on straight away from TFA with no time jump, there's only so many things the writers can do with all the characters. A hell of a lot happened over a very short period of time.

    i think the galaxy DOES need Finn moving forward. i know i do.

    :)
     
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  3. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

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    Now he fights. Now he establishes himself as a character independent of what used to define him. He becomes a leader.
    In the OT we were just told who was in charge or randomly informed Han, Lando etc were just "anointed" Generals. We have a chance to see Finn grow into that role for the first time in a Star Wars movie.
     
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  4. LarsSkywalker

    LarsSkywalker Rebel Official

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    Agreed. Part of that is because Han and Lando were established as older guys unlike Finn.
     
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  5. Corn Cream

    Corn Cream Rebel General

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    Finn was a leader the moment he decided not to kill the villagers on Jakku. Finn showed throughout TFA that he was a leader. His plan helped lead the Resistance to victory, right? What he needs is a purpose that sets him apart from the others. Finn has a different perspective than the Resistance. He knows far more than they do about the FO, and that should have been more central to the trilogy. So far the Resistance has only used his knowledge to help them. Finn needs to use his knowledge to help the storm troopers that were taken as children too. This is why I will always disagree with him being a part of the Resistance. He brings more to the table than let's just shoot up the bad guys.
     
    #65 Corn Cream, Dec 7, 2018 at 11:24 PM
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2018 at 11:33 PM
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  6. Trooper212

    Trooper212 Rebel General

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    He already did all of that in TFA and again in TLJ, none of that separates him in importance from anyone else. So as @Rayjefury asked, does that not make his story complete? Also, if we're just going to watch someone "become a leader" wouldn't it make more sense to follow Poe since he's going to be the leader of the Resistance? Why should we follow Finn growing into someone that's just going to be taking orders from someone else?
     
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  7. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

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    He literally did none of that in TFA or TLJ.
    His motivations are not for that of the Resistance. It's all for his own preservation and his own self-interest with Rey.
    It's not until AFTER his fight with Phasma he announces he's actually going to fight FOR the cause. Now he gets to do that.

    Poe is being groomed for the Leia role.
    I don't understand the last part of your question @Trooper212 and I don't think I'm supposed to since literally every Rebel or Resistance fighter we've met save Mon Mothma and Leia have been taking orders from higher ups. I feel like that's a cheap trap question.

    Finn wasn't a leader when he decided not to kill villagers. Painting it that way is dishonest and you know it. But I expect nothing less from someone who throws ridiculous ad hominem attacks suggesting people don't see Finn as a human being.
    --- Double Post Merged, Dec 8, 2018 at 2:53 AM, Original Post Date: Dec 8, 2018 at 2:53 AM ---
    Perhaps. But I always found it funny they gave Han a high rank despite the fact he bailed on the Rebellion 2x before coming back each time lol.
     
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  8. Trooper212

    Trooper212 Rebel General

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    In TFA: He fought against the First Order throughout the movie
    He lead an infiltration on Starkiller, he even prioritized the Resistance's goals over his own
    He stopped allowing his past as a stormtrooper to define him

    All accomplished in TFA
     
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  9. Corn Cream

    Corn Cream Rebel General

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    That is considered being a leader. He was given orders, and he refused to follow. He followed his moral compass. Which was stronger than the conditioning he went through with the FO. If you are referring to him leading a group then you are talking literal. Considering he was taking orders his whole life I consider saying no as the first steps to being a leader. His greatest accomplishments was doing what he wanted. Deciding not to fire on the villagers. Helping himself and Poe escape. Create the plan to rescue Rey as well as helping the Resistance were all his decisions. He didn't have to do any of those things. He did them because he wanted to.

    The causes for the Resistance shouldn't be the same for Finn. We didn't follow the Resistance. We followed Finn. The fact that JJ didn't have Finn join them in TFA when he could have should tell you his reasons for fighting should be his own. Finn telling Han he was only there to save Rey should also tell you that. He spent his entire life on the other side. How do you defect and call yourself a Rebel a week later when there was never any ambition to become one? The Resistance is just a generalized group. It could be anybody. Just like it was in the original trilogy. Did you care more about what the Rebellion wanted or did you care more what Luke and his friends wanted? We heard what Rose wanted from Finn, but what she wanted had nothing to do with helping him with what he wanted.
     
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  10. Rayjefury

    Rayjefury Rebel Official

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    Not to be a stickler here but, Finn has been fighting. He fought the FO in TFA, he fought them in TLJ. He led infiltrations in both movies. You aren't suggesting anything new (and it's ok, I didn't think you or anyone else would). All I'm saying is that it kind of highlights what we have been saying about Finn's handling for awhile. It has had serious problems and it seems the only way we can get people to acknowledge it is to get them to back into these conclusions accidentally. We have to speculate (for now) what Finn will do. And once we do see it, it will probably be fairly disconnected from the previous movies because there doesn't seem to be a first, second, and third act for Finn. He's just in each movie and his development apparently doesn't have to build off of existing material (which is a problem IMO).
     
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  11. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Jedi Commander

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    I find your use of "we" very interesting.
    To be fair, neither have you. You've stated numerous times you don't like Finn's arc and laid out your subjective case as to why.
    Finn had a well defined arc in TFA and TLJ. That doesn't mean people had to like it. Finn is one of the leads in this firm and it's silly to suggest his presence in the next film doesn't matters.
     
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  12. Corn Cream

    Corn Cream Rebel General

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    I get what you are saying. Anything I add when it comes to Finn is based on what has actually happened, but is not being promoted or discussed. There has been such a strong push to have the story go in a certain direction that anything else brings moans and groans. Even if there version of the story was never the one that they planned on telling.

    Right after TFA was released all the major media outlets focused on Rey, and it was ridiculously over the top. There are only so many characters in the Star Wars Universe so the question concerning her parents never should have been as big as it was. Then the next big thing that was promoted was Reylo. Say what? I thought I saw a movie where a former storm trooper and a scavenger girl bonded over the entire movie, and their motivations became each other. Ever since then the fans have been divided. TLJ was just a culmination of the online arguments and promotion to move away from JJ's story. All of a sudden the screams Finn heard became some nonsense excuse to ignore him having the force. Then not one mention of a lone soldier breaking his conditioning over a two year period as if that is something people do everyday. It didn't matter what Kathleen said. People have decided that Rey is the one and only lead. Even though she has no story to follow. This is why the only question people could come up with was who are her parents. She literally has nothing else to build a story around.

    A story can be told with Finn barely doing anything, but like TLJ I don't think it will be satisfying. Characters are going to have to change no matter what. Besides having the force. Rey has no purpose being in this story. Finn knows all the people that needs to be known in order to make this trilogy different, but when you ignore him and put all the emphasis on Rey. You just get a generic story that has no purpose.

    I watch a few Mike Zeroh videos and he promotes Rey, Kylo, and Luke as the leads. Lol. A dead character gets more recognition than Finn. How did that turn out for TLJ? Just because Luke is in it doesn't make it a blockbuster. TFA did better without him.
     
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  13. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

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    Finn fought for himself. He didn't fight for a cause.
    Each time the infiltration was purely of self-interest. To save and protect Rey.

    It's okay because we are both entrenched in our views of this. You haven't exactly provided anything new either.
     
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  14. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Jedi Commander

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    Ah, I think that explains a lot actually.
    The narrative arcs in TLJ and TFA aren't very difficult to explain. There's so many characters in the film the motivations have to be simple for there to be any development at all. The Avengers has basically no character development except for Thanos. Star Wars doesn't really have the luxury. One could argue that Han Solo's part in TFA was too big because it robbed valuable time from the new cast.
     
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  15. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

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    Which is fair. I mean, Everyone but Luke got very rudimentary development in the OT as well. Han does the same thing twice then is just sort of present in the third film.
    Here's a "bold" take: Finn and Poe have gotten more character work in 2 films than Han and Lando did in two films.
    Yet somehow it's not enough for some.
     
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  16. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Jedi Commander

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    Han's arc simply becomes a romance plot device after Hoth. He doesn't have much to do in Return of the Jedi. It probably would have worked better if he was piloting the Falcon during the battle. Of the OT films it's a bit of mess in that department.
     
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  17. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

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    100% agree.
     
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  18. Rogues1138

    Rogues1138 Jedi General

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    I agree with you to certain extent. Finn wanted to leave the FO and start a new life( he wanted to run). Han only cared about making money, to pay off his debts, but Chewie and Luke must have pierced his heart because Han returned and helped Luke destroy DS. Finn wanted to help as well, his own selfish motivations for Rey and finding a new life took a back seat on Crait( He also gave Poe Rey's tracking device before going on the mission to find the master code breaker). He almost sacrificed himself for the Resistance but Rose stopped him. He no longer had selfish motivations, so much so, he wanted to run out and help Luke. But Poe saw things differently. Luke was a distraction for them to (RUN) escape. The Resistance's resources were exhausted. Much like Finn, the Resistance had to run.
    In ANH, spiritually Ob1 advised Luke to RUN on DS. OB1 was a distraction for Luke, Leia, and Han to RUN. Therefore, Finn is needed. Just like Han he somewhat found a home. Although, In ESB Han had to leave once again to pay off his debts to Jabba, but when rescued in ROTJ continued to help the Rebels. Han and Finn had different motivations, they are not similar at all. Han is a smuggler. Finn is a man that wanted a new life in the outer rim. But, now he may want to stay for Rose or to continue the fight with the Resistance. We shall see in episode 9 where Finn's arc will end. Will Finn run off with Rose? Will Finn's feelings for Rey reemerge? Will Finn stay and continue the fight? Similar to Han, who stayed to fight in ROTJ.
     
    #78 Rogues1138, Dec 8, 2018 at 9:57 PM
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2018 at 10:17 PM
  19. Rayjefury

    Rayjefury Rebel Official

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    I think you all might be missing this. Coming to the realization that no one could "offer something new" for Finn is part of what prompted me to create this thread.

    If you rely on the existing metadata (i.e. what's been developed for Finn in TFA and TLJ) you can't offer anything new (regardless of whether you liked TLJ or not). This is precisely why the gist of what's being offered here is "he'll be Resistance", "he'll fight", "he'll lead". And we have literally already seen Finn (and a number of other characters) do all of these things before. So...

    If this is what he's going to do in EPIX, you don't need to follow him. Because you HAVE seen that story already... (twice I would argue). You don't need to follow Finn to see what he becomes in EPIX, he is Resistance. TLJ says so. His developmental journey in the ST is over. It seems the only way this does not true is if the writers disregard TLJ and create a Finn that has no root in his development in TFA and TLJ and basically throwing continuity to the wind.
    --- Double Post Merged, Dec 9, 2018 at 6:10 AM, Original Post Date: Dec 9, 2018 at 5:37 AM ---
    Sidelining Finn for a pedestrian arc culminating in the worst melee choreography since Darth Maul vs Obi Wan part 2 was one of the worst mistakes in a movie I have ever seen. Imagine spending an entire feature length movie where the major arc is the character deciding instead of fighting along side the Resistance, to fight as the Resistance. Or imagine making every effort to minimize the chemistry between the co-stars in the first movie.

    I hated the way Rian handled their relationship, in the past I tried to give him the benefit of the doubt that he wasn't antagonistic towards it merely because he was trying to play up some non-existent relationship between Rey and Kylo. But there was something that struck me about one of the scenes with Chewie. We know as an audience we are never going to understand Shyriiwook (the Wookie language) the way it works is someone is there to translate and clue us in by way of their response. It's essentially Star War's version of the "One Sided Phone Call". There are no subtitles for Chewie, just the responses of people around him. But what does Rian do? Instead of owning his take on what he believes Rey and Finn are to each other, he prevents Rey from articulating it, has Chewie roar some nonsense for Rey to cosign as her sentiment so he doesn't have to deal with it. If you don't see Finn and Rey having a deep and/or romantic bond, write that story. Don't equivocate and hide behind cinematic devices to avoid it, that's cowardly IMO.
     
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  20. Corn Cream

    Corn Cream Rebel General

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    Chewbacca has been doing what Finn is expected to do ever since 1977. I don't know why we need a trilogy built around it.

    Rian did two things in this movie that has me 100% convinced he used evidence from online to make this movie.

    1) The strong need to bring Rey and Kylo together. The Reylo people get the most recognition, and he probably felt this is what people wanted. The problem is most people who watch movies don't talk online about it. The motivation for Rey and Finn was each other. You just can't ignore that. The desire to never talk about it or bring it up doesn't mean it didn't happen. Rian ignoring it made Rey worse as a character, because I don't know what she is fighting for. She didn't fight for the Resistance in TFA, and that was fine, but she didn't do much to help them in TLJ either. Even though I don't agree with Finn's reasons for helping the Resistance. At least his actions have shown he is all in. Rey has done more to help Kylo than anyone else. All she did was move some rocks for the Resistance. It's no surprise some believe Reylo can happen.

    2) The Rey parent reveal was Rian trolling the fans. Kylo said you're parents were nobodies. Rey never brought up what her parents were. The audience did based on what she was doing in the movie. All she said was she was waiting for them.

    This is why I say Finn is the hero of this trilogy. Between the two protagonist. Finn is the only one who is strong in his convictions, and has done more to help the Resistance as well as the galaxy.
     
    #80 Corn Cream, Dec 9, 2018 at 4:24 PM
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2018 at 4:29 PM
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