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Do We Need Finn Going Forward

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by Rayjefury, Nov 27, 2018.

  1. NinjaRen

    NinjaRen Supreme Leader

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    Rian Johnson wrote and began shooting this movie before TFA even hit theaters. So there wasn't even a fan ship of Reylo. Rian just saw what JJ established in TFA and worked with that.

    She brought back Luke Skywalker. The spark of hope for the Resistance and the galaxy.

    Maybe you should watch the movie before writing something like that. Kylo never said Rey's parents were nobodies. It was all Rey: "They were nobodies."
     
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  2. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

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    It's so amazing how many people seem to ignore that last bit.
    Massive amounts of mis-remembering going on when it comes to that scene.
     
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  3. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Jedi Commander

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    My immigration isn't very limited. There's plenty that Finn could do in the next film. To suggest otherwise is a bit hyperbolic.
    I feel like same people keep making the same ludicrous claims over and over. Some people are simply so wedded to a narrative they refuse to deal with reality.
     
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  4. LarsSkywalker

    LarsSkywalker Rebel Official

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    Sorry man. I'm a Finn fan but I as well as others know Rian wrote TLJ while TFA was being filmed.

    He didn't look online. He looked at the Rey-Kylo interactions in TFA. And saw the same "chemistry" Reylo fans saw, after they watched the film.
     
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  5. Corn Cream

    Corn Cream Rebel General

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    She didn't bring back Luke. I didn't see him on the Millenium Falcon.
    Why do that? You know exactly what Kylo was implying. Kylo calling them junk traders had nothing to do with Rey waiting for her parents.
    Yeah. An interrogation scene. Watching him murder his defenseless father, almost killing her only friend, fighting Kylo off at the end to save herself and her friend, and then managing to escape thanks to Chewbacca. This is chemistry?

    Let's compare that to Finn and Rey using the same words in the Millenium Falcon saying, I can do this. I can do this. How about Rey telling Finn to let go of her hand, but later is reaching out as she is running towards him when he is snatched up by the Rathtars. How about when he was leaving Maz's and she tells Finn you can't go. I won't let you. How about Finn coming back to try to help Rey when the FO fires their weapon. Then coming up with a plan to rescue Rey, and she realizing someone does care enough about her to come back. We also have Rey embracing the force because of Finn.

    JJ established that in TFA too, and out of that I got characters showing chemistry as well as motivation. I have a story. Whatever chemistry Rian Johnson saw had nothing to do with TFA.

    If Rey and Kylo's chemistry was going to be the story then TFA shouldn't have been made the way it was. Why use an entire movie to establish a relationship between her and another character only to create a connection between her and another character in the next movie? Finn never should have been in TFA then. This is also one of the reasons why some people believe we need two more movies to complete this story. There is only one movie left and two were used to establish relationships.
     
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  6. LarsSkywalker

    LarsSkywalker Rebel Official

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    Watch the TFA blu-ray with commentary from JJ Abrams. He talks about setting up REY and Kylo's "interesting ongoing relationship" (his words not mine.)

    He also talks about Rey and Finn's relationship. One thing about it though, was that it was originally different but he decided to change it and base it on the actors' real life friendship.

    The Rey-Kylo relationship was suppose to "evolve" according to him. And was planned.
     
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  7. Corn Cream

    Corn Cream Rebel General

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    We don't know what he means by interesting ongoing relationship.

    I don't see Rey's relationship with Kylo the way I see her relationship with Finn. At this point I don't even see any kind of relationship between Rey and Kylo. The Ilne "it was you" wasn't in the movie, so I have no idea what Kylo was talking about. Other than that line I saw no interesting relationship. Not when Kylo barely gets enough screen time to be seen as a different kind of character.

    I would say he had a perfect opportunity when Kylo was on Jakku. If Rey and Kylo were meant to be something deeper that would have been the perfect time and place to lay the ground work.

    I do remember the relationship between Rey and Finn at first was suppose to be antagonistic, but it wasn't working. It still sounded like he was creating a story where Rey and Finn would have a relationship.
     
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  8. NinjaRen

    NinjaRen Supreme Leader

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    You take "bringing back" way too literal. Rey made Luke Luke again. She gave him the "kick in the ass" he needed.
     
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  9. Rayjefury

    Rayjefury Rebel Official

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    I believe my preamble was: "if - you - rely - on - the - existing - metadata". I doubt that you could imagine something that hasn't been mentioned in the Finn thread that hasn't already been shot to pieces by people with an innate desire for Finn to be ordinary. I don't recall ever seeing you make a case against those people. So I'm honestly surprised to be getting this much push back in this thread. Why would you need an imagination for what Finn would do in the next film? Serious question, there is nothing left that requires resolution. Look I'm saying 2 very specific things that are logical consequences of his story in TFA and TLJ:

    1. Finn is a Resistance Member, not noticeably skilled in any area, whose developmental arc ostensibly concluded in TLJ (he's no longer scared, he's no longer selfish, he's no longer unaffiliated)
    2. There is no reason to follow him further. His job function is determined. He has no skill set that he needs to show he has now mastered. His overt flaws have been addressed.

    I'm not sure why this is disagreeable to people now.

    There are ton of ideas in the Finn thread where folks like myself and others speculate on where Finn could go during TLJ. The options were wide open going into the 2nd Episode with Finn in a coma, they are not wide open going into the 3rd; especially not after Rian establishes his arc as going from being Resistance-adjacent to Resistance. There were a number of speculative ideas that have to come off the board immediately once Rian story becomes canon. If you care anything about continuity, coherent development, and you're looking to avoid a "Deus Ex Machina" type pivot from characters, then your options for what you write in EPIX seem pretty well proscribed.
    --- Double Post Merged, Dec 10, 2018, Original Post Date: Dec 10, 2018 ---
    An excellent observation. But I still credit Rian with the disconnects that happen between TFA and TLJ. He knew what happened in the TFA, he chose not to go along with the existing metadata (which I think is almost always a mistake)
     
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  10. Corn Cream

    Corn Cream Rebel General

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    When speculation for Episode IX comes up Finn's name is not even mentioned, so this is an excellent point. It's obvious at least so far that none of the usual Star Wars outlets are looking forward to anything from Finn. Everything is Rey, Luke, Kylo, and now The Knights of Ren who may appear to be force sensitive. More possible force users, and Finn's name is still absent. Mike Zeroh did a Finn video about him using the light saber again, and people had a fit in the comment section saying there was nothing in the movie indicating he could be FS.

    What's funny is I haven't heard any complaints about there being more force users, but if one of those force users is Finn then they complain there are too many in the movie.
     
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  11. Trooper212

    Trooper212 Rebel General

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    I don't think a lot of people really understand what this thread is really about.
    Let my try an analogy to help people understand the questions that this thread poses.

    Let's say we are making a movie called "Marathon". In this movie we're following three characters. These character's arcs are primarily about deciding to run the same marathon.

    Character A) Is a person diagnosed with a serious heart condition. During the movie A's doctor tells them that if they decide to run the marathon, their heart condition could possibly kill them. At the end of the movie A decides to run the marathon despite the doctors warnings.

    Character B) Is a perfectly healthy human being and veteran marathon runner. Initially they are hesitant to run the marathon simply because they've done it before. At the end of the movie they decide to run the marathon.

    Character C) Is also a veteran marathon runner. Many times they have finished in the top two or three, but have never actually won the marathon. During the movie we find out that this is their last realistic chance to win the marathon. Their decision to run hinges on whether they believe they can win. At the end of the movie they decide to give themselves one more chance and run the race.

    "Marathon" ends with all three characters lining up to run the race.

    A couple of years down the road a sequel is green-lit. Now the writers give an interview in which they make it clear that the focus of "Marathon 2" will be primarily on two characters instead of three.

    Given what we know about all three characters from the first movie, what justifies following character B rather than either character A or character C? See character B's decision does not include a risk to their own personal safety as A's does nor is it tie into their own sense of worth as character C's does. Their decision to race is not about whether they win or lose or whether they can even finish, we know from M1 that those aren't important to their story. So to justify following character B the writers would have to manufacture a plotline when there was no logical thread to follow from their arc in M1. Contrast that to A and C who do have logical story threads to follow from M1. A's being whether or not they will finish the race and C's being whether or not they can win the race.

    In this analogy Finn is character B, a character whose arc is effectively already completed because it wasn't about some serious internal struggle wrapped up in a personal health crises or whether or not he wins or loses. At this point as @Rayjefury says you would have to pretty much make something up because there's no logical in-universe reason to justify following Finn as a opposed to say Poe or Rey or even Kylo. They, unlike Finn, have threads to follow from TLJ going into Episode IX.
     
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  12. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

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    There's no more reason to follow Poe than to follow Finn.
    The trilogy is Rey's and Kylo's.
    Outside of those two, there's no reason to follow anyone as you describe.
    Just like by the end of ESB there was no reason to follow Han, Lando or Leia.
     
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  13. Corn Cream

    Corn Cream Rebel General

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    I get what you are saying. That's why I didn't go to see TLJ. First time I didn't to to the movies to watch Star Wars. I have no interest in Rey and Kylo, because their story isn't organic. If his arc is just switching sides then I have no interest in the movie.

    I don't think you have to make anything up. Rey has been highlighted more over Finn, but that doesn't mean the seeds weren't planted for Finn to be something more. He's just been ignored. Now if there was going to be a different director besides JJ I would agree with this 1000%, but since this was his baby, and TFA was well received. I don't think he would ignore parts of his own story. Not when he gave Boyega the most dialogue, and fought hard for him to be in it. I just can't see JJ looking at Boyega in Attack the Block, and thinking to himself this guy would look great in the background.

    At this point I have no interest in the movie. Only thing that can change that is Finn's story.
     
  14. Trooper212

    Trooper212 Rebel General

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    That's why I specifically said following TLJ. That movie didn't set him up for anything special going forward. If we go by what happens in TFA regarding Finn, from all the hints that he's force-sensitive to the idea that his background as a member of the First Order matters going forward then you could make the argument that Episode IX needs him. But the idea that JJ Abrams views the possibilities of Finn's story in the same way that we do or that he would be willing to overlook Finn's arc in TLJ in favor of what he wanted to do with him following TFA is conjecture at this point. Besides, even if he does view Finn like we do we don't know how much freedom he actually has deciding the direction of Finn.
     
  15. CTrent29

    CTrent29 Rebel Official

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    Did Rose have a problem with this? Personally, I see nothing wrong with it. Finn should fight for what matters to him and not for a cause because someone lectured to him about how important that cause is. Like other characters, he has to be true to himself and march to his own beat. Not to the beat of others.


    How did you come to the conclusion that Finn's personal arc is over? How? Because he had tried to sacrifice himself to save the Resistance? That's it and whoosh, he is supposed to be shoved off stage for the third movie? Are you that eager to get rid of him?
     
  16. Kylocity

    Kylocity Rebel Official

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    In TFA the relationship between Rey and Finn was firmly established, which helped to root Rey in the story, make her belong somewhere, care for something enough to fight for it. This is the reason why JJ had so much care and payed so much attention to Rey and Finn's dynamic and decided to make it as organic and truthful as possible. But in TFA it was already obvious that Rey's story was going to have greater scope, and that it was her relationship and confrontation with her antagonist Kylo what was going to move it forward. Rey's role in the ST story is to save the galaxy and Kylo is the power for her to defeat. Finn and Poe are her allies helping her attain this victory and, as such, are secondary characters with less important arcs.

    I understand that some people may have preferred Finn to be the Rey of this ST, but to say that Kylo and Rey in TLJ was forced or unexpected is just not true. I think it would have been remiss of RJ not to bring Kylo and Rey together and establish a relationship between them in the follow up of TFA... In fact, this relationship was one of the most predictable outcomes of RJ's film.
     
    #96 Kylocity, Dec 10, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2018
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  17. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

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    Rose did have a problem with it...because it's why Finn is abandoning the Resistance.
    Finn was just gonna keep running and keep getting hunted down by the FO. At some point, that isn't a viable option.
    It's Star Wars. It is about good vs evil.
     
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  18. Kylocity

    Kylocity Rebel Official

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    I know what you mean, but I think that the point Rose was trying to put across was not that Finn should fight for a cause, but rather for him to find in himself a moral compass, a higher reason to risk his life and fight evil.... It is a neat way to make his arc evolve in TLJ. The problem with this section of the film is that we the audience were guided by the hand through this lesson instead of being let figure it out for ourselves. It doesn't really work when you tell the audience to "feel" one way or another.
     
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  19. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Jedi Commander

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    Finn is an outlaw and traitor to the authority currently ruling the galaxy. At the end of The Last Jedi his situation isn't resolved.
    It's difficult to believe that anyone would be upset that Rey is getting more attention than Finn, but here we are...
    The idea that Finn is getting ignored is silly.
    Did Leia have a problem with Han Solo being a heartless mercenary? I do find it curious that people seemingly have an issue with Rose being wise, but no one bats and eye with it's coming from Obi-Wan or Yoda.
     
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  20. Corn Cream

    Corn Cream Rebel General

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    I think we are assuming it's Rey's responsibility to save the galaxy. Don't get me wrong. I don't have a problem with it if this was the intentions, but from my point of view. I have no idea what Rey is suppose to represent. After TFA I didn't see Rey like I saw Luke, Anakin or anyone other force user. She was too capable for me. Plus Papaltine using Jakku for his own personal reasons had me think of Rey as an abandoned experiment. The longing and waiting for a family when she could have left anytime made me wonder what she really was. Not so much who.

    Some of us are also concerned about the outcome of the storm troopers too. People brought this up ever since TFA. Even Rian knew it had to be addressed. I'm glad his version didn't make it to film though. I hate it. I would prefer Finn reach out to the other storm troopers of his own free will. Not because he is surrounded by them. There are other questions people have, and the story of Rey and Kylo doesn't answer them.
    --- Double Post Merged, Dec 11, 2018, Original Post Date: Dec 11, 2018 ---
    With Snoke being obsessed with finding Luke, and Kylo showing curiosity about Rey no one would have been looking for Finn. Even though he has done more damage to the FO than Luke and Rey combined.
     
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