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Do We Need Finn Going Forward

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by Rayjefury, Nov 27, 2018.

  1. Kylocity

    Kylocity Rebel Official

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    I like this idea of a stormtrooper revolt a lot too, and Finn being at the heart of it. I hope we are told this story at some point, one way or another.
     
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  2. Rayjefury

    Rayjefury Force Sensitive

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    Every member of the Resistance is an outlaw to the authority ruling the galaxy. But we wouldn't say their individual development is or isn't complete just because they are in an armed conflict. I mean, are you gonna argue that Han WASN'T fully developed already by the time RoTJ begins because the fate of the Rebellion was still up in the air?

    Finn is Resistance. His journey is complete. We don't walk away asking what Finn will be. No one is speculating what his future occupation is because we know it. Rian went through great pains (i.e. spent an entire movie) saying that's what he became. He isn't afraid anymore. He isn't running anymore. He isn't unaffiliated anymore.

    I'll ask again, what development is left for Finn?
    --- Double Post Merged, Dec 13, 2018, Original Post Date: Dec 13, 2018 ---
    My how the times have changed. During the TFA days it was, "Finn doesn't need the Force to be relevant". Now it's, "well yeah of course Finn isn't as relevant, the trilogy is about the Force Users Kylo and Rey". LOL

    The tragedy here isn't just the reaches and stretches used to avoid the truth and that hasten the demise of Finn's dwindling relevance; it's that we SAID this is exactly what would happen (and more importantly) it makes the story and the trilogy SO much lesser than what it could have been.

    Finn has been turned from a seminal character with an interesting background that could have been explored (like Rey, Poe, and Kylo) to a space filler.
     
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  3. Pomojema

    Pomojema Ayatollah Of Rock-&-Rolla
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    Also worth noting is that the final scene that Rey and Kylo Ren share ends with her symbolically shutting herself off from him. Which is a sign that the ship has been sunk.
    I'd argue that Yoda deserves way more credit for that, but he wouldn't have appeared at all if Luke hadn't opened himself up to the Force again once Rey arrived.
     
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  4. LarsSkywalker

    LarsSkywalker Rebel Official

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    Defeating the FO of course. The evil system that took away his childhood and is controling the galaxy.

    We'll finally see Finn go after them proactively rather than reactively (TFA, TLJ)
     
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  5. NinjaRen

    NinjaRen Supreme Leader

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    Not really. She doesn't want Kylo Ren but Ben. That's pretty much the message of that scene. "You want me, boy? Then get your sh!t together." *closes the door*
     
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  6. Rayjefury

    Rayjefury Force Sensitive

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    Defeating the FO is not "development" for Finn. It is what all the characters for the Resistance will be attempting to do.
     
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  7. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

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    Finn didn't even try to actually defeat the FO until the end of TLJ.
    So yeah, it would actually be a development to see him think they can defeat the FO since he's basically been saying they can't win since the start....
     
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  8. Pomojema

    Pomojema Ayatollah Of Rock-&-Rolla
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    Except there's no romantic undertone to that scene, much less a vaguely sexual "come hither" one. Kylo Ren screamed that he wanted her ship shot down and told Luke that he'd kill her. When he finally confronts her, he has a sad puppy-dog face for a moment, but that's it.

    Rey wants to save Kylo Ren if she can, but she recognizes that she can't be the one who turns him back to the light. That's on him.
     
    #108 Pomojema, Dec 15, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2018
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  9. The Hero With No Fear

    The Hero With No Fear Jedi General

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    I don’t see why Finn would be unneeded. He’s a good fighter with more military training than half of the other non-Legacy protagonists. More importantly, Finn is a valuable asset to the Resistance’s fledging fight against the First Order, as he is one of the few (if not the only) defectors from their side. His knowledge of the First Order’s ships, weapons, etc. has proven valuable to the Resistance in both TFA and TLJ. Not to mention that he is seemingly looked up to as a hero by people within the Resistance, if Rose’s first encounter with him in TLJ is any indication.

    As some other people in this thread have pointed out, there is the potential for Finn to lead a stormtrooper revolt in Episode 9. If one soldier trained from birth can overcome his brainwashing, then whose to say that there aren’t others like him within the ranks of the First Order? Even if this theory doesn’t pan out, I’m sure that he’ll somehow play an important role in Episode 9; we just don’t fulk understand what his place is in the full story yet.
     
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  10. Corn Cream

    Corn Cream Rebel General

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    Depends on the lens you are using. Why would his arc be helping the Resistance before he helps himself? Just because he says they can't win doesn't turn make that his arc. What did Finn want in TFA? His freedom. What does the FO or the Resistance have to do with that? We are putting on him what we think he should be instead of thinking about what would a character like him would want. He wouldn't want to be a hero for the galaxy that's for sure.
    Why would she want Ben? I thought she wanted her parents. Her wanting Ben is what people want her to want, but has nothing to do with the story. This is why TLJ has been heavily criticized. She wants him. Even though she saw him kill his father. Why would he want her over family, and why would we want to see something like that? Too many leaps in faith. Also, Chewbacca is so stupid he goes along with Rey's plan to go to Kylo even after he also saw him kill his father? When does someone pull this girl to the side and tell her we are not your props in your sick fantasy? Chewbacca is still treated like a dog. He gets no medals. He doesn't get consoled by Leia, and his longtime friendship with Han is ignored as Rey expects Chewbacca to go along with her plan to go to Kylo.
    Except for having the force. Rey has no purpose being in the movie. None of the questions people have about Rey drive the actual story. Even though Rian tried to minimize Finn. He did that to everyone except Kylo, and it only made him appear weaker. The question should be what are we looking forward to. The force story is generic. It's not as interesting as the one we got in the OT or the PT.
     
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  11. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Jedi Commander

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    Finn picks a side in The Last Jedi. There's no grey area. Ignoring the reality of FInn's arc isn't going to change it.
    [​IMG]
    For someone who hates this story so much you certainly like telling those of us who like it how much you hate it. If you refuse to acknowledged basic story arcs you're not discussing this film with us in good faith. It's just an excuse for you to complain. There's a hate thread for that.
     
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  12. Rayjefury

    Rayjefury Force Sensitive

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    The question wasn't if the Resistance could use Finn, it was, is there an in-story reason why we the audience should follow him. He is a military asset. Great. So is everyone else that is fighting for the resistance. Yes, Finn has been used a cinematic device to disseminate knowledge of the FO to the Resistance, no matter how ridiculous the premise. They could strap on a rocket booster and launch us towards the summit of Mount St. Ridiculous in EPIX and have him be the First Order Whisperer one more time. And we'll just have to suspend our disbelief and assume that each Storm Trooper has infinite operational knowledge of all things FO; not like we could have like... Bothan spies providing knowledge. But that notwithstanding, these are cinematic devices, the question wasn't can Finn be used again to serve the larger plot, I'm asking is there a reason to follow his story.

    Hell does he have a story now? Is there anything you can point to that suggests other stormtroopers can overcome their brainwashing in TFA? In TLJ? Could they write a Storm Trooper revolt? Sure. But, I would argue, at this point, it will come with absolutely NO prior setup and will come out of the blue.
     
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  13. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Jedi Commander

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    Yes
    Yes
    I'm not sure why you're making this so difficult. You're trying to create some objective stance that Finn has no purpose. Finn had an arc in both films and a purpose. His story isn't over. To suggest that Finn's story is over is kind of silly.
    I like Finn. He's one of the heroes in this trilogy. What more of a reason do I need?
     
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  14. The Hero With No Fear

    The Hero With No Fear Jedi General

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    I’ll admit that his knowledge of some of the First Order’s ships/technology has been more than a little convinent to the plot, but plot conveniences are a dime a dozen in Star Wars.

    To question if he “has a story now” is preposterous. When we first meet Finn, he is a seemingly average soldier (hence why I think there could be others like him) who has been brainwashed from birth and realizes the atrocities of the order that he has been forced to serve. He is initially focused only on getting himself as far away from the First Order until he makes a connection with Rey, who, at the point, is the only person to show genuine care for him and actually treat him like a human (except for Poe, who was believed to be dead at that point). He moves on from only caring about keeping himself safe, but keeping Rey safe too. On Takodana, he almost leaves Han and Rey to escape the conflict, which is an idea carried on over to TLJ. He didn’t even go to Starkiller Base to help destroy it; he only went to save Rey. Finn still believes that the First Order is unstoppable and does not truly believe in the Resistance’s cause by the end of TFA.

    This carries on over to the start of The Last Jedi, where his first concern is “Where’s Rey?” He even tries to leave the doomed Resistance fleet to keep Rey’s beacon safe. Although a little more noble than when he tried to leave in TFA, his selfishness remains and it is his visit to Canto Bight and encounter with DJ that helps him realize that not taking a side in this conflict, one that he can very well help in, is just as bad as directly supporting the First Order. Later on in the Supremacy, Finn identifying as “rebel scum” to Captain Phasma is representative of his now-solidified devotion to the Resistance’s cause.

    On Crait, he goes through a mini-arc similar to Poe’s arc throughout the whole film. He is not focused on saving his friends, he is only focused on destroying the First Order’s battering ram cannon. He even says “We can’t let them win!” and not something akin to “I can’t let my friends die!” His attempt to destroy it would’ve been for nothing, as his ship was falling apart before he even reached the cannon. Even if he somehow miraculously destroyed the cannon, it wouldn’t have stopped the First Order from somehow getting into the bunker. Through Rose’s “Love/Hate” line, Finn also learns that how he chooses to fight can be just as important as who and what he fights for. (A lesson that was also learned by Ezra Bridger in Star Wars: Rebels.)

    Now that he is fully devoted to the Resistance’s cause, I’m interested to see what where Ep. 9 takes Finn’s character. You may not like Finn, but to liken him to being a mere cinematic device is unfair and untrue.
     
    #114 The Hero With No Fear, Dec 15, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2018
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  15. Lock_S_Foils

    Lock_S_Foils Red Leader

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    Yes.
     
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  16. Rayjefury

    Rayjefury Force Sensitive

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    Feel free to specify what that is.
    We're 6 pages in with people answering in strawman or not answering at all. I'm not that one making things difficult here.
    No, let's be precise. I am suggesting there is no in-story reason to follow him in EPIX. I am suggesting, there is nothing unique about him following his development in Ep 8 that compels us to watch his story in particular as opposed to watching it from any other Resistance member. They're going to have to insert some device in EPIX to make him and his journey relevant. Because we've seen him fight and infiltrate the FO already. There was no burgeoning skill set that he needs to show he has mastered now. The character attributes that were flaws and/or resulted in conflicts that were introduced in TFA have all been resolved; there is no further character development that's been set up.

    If you can dispute ANY of these statements with any substance, the floor is open.
    The contention in this thread isn't that he didn't have an arc in both films. The contention is that there isn't an in-story reason to follow him going forward right now.
    Ok, well then tell us what it is.
    I think what's silly is how often you bracket your comments with assertions that you like Finn and praise the heroism you never talk about in specificity or without prompt. It's almost like you think people don't believe you like Finn.
    Bad acting and horrendous dialogue was also a dime a dozen in Star Wars in the OT and PT, but no one would argue their frequency was a justification for overlooking them. They remained a legitimate point of criticism, as does Finn's use as an infinite source of operational knowledge for the FO.
    If my query had been "what was Finn's arc up to this point" everything you just typed above would have been a great response. But it's not what I asked. And that he has been used in part to communicate knowledge of the FO to the Resistance doesn't seem to be a matter up for debate.

    DIRECTED TO NO ONE IN PARTICULAR:
    I think the answer to my question is VERY easy to answer but people are twisting themselves in logical knots and reaching across the galaxy for justifications to avoid saying: No, there is no reason to follow Finn right now. Not because they are particularly invested in Finn (a lot of the people defending his lackluster and banal treatment are doing so because they'd like for it to continue). But because at some point, their past stated positions and assertions are going to become contradictory and/or untenable. And all that's left is to to back pedal softly away from them. It's already started with people who now suggest

    1. Well of course Finn isn't as important or relevant, the story is about Force Users. Before it was Force Usage wasn't necessary make someone relevant so Finn didn't need it.
    2. Finn is the new Han of the movies. But in this thread, it's said that Han didn't have an arc in his 3rd movie and also that Finn could fulfill a role similar to Han or Lando.
    3. Talk of a Storm Trooper Rebellion was roundly shouted down as an idea for TLJ prior to it's release. Now without any metadata to support it in TLJ, people can see a ST rebellion in EPIX

    The wildest aspect to all this is that the people are arguing with me about this thread, have not bothered to argue with the people that said (for example) Finn could fulfill a role similar to Lando and Han. They also aren't arguing with the people saying that the story is about Force Users and so Finn is going to be less relevant. How that statement got a pass is a mystery to me.

    What I find particularly amusing is how often Finn has been called a hero, and here I am questioning if there is a reason to continue to follow him. How dare I. But I'm at a loss as to why these same people have YET to invoke Campbell's hero model for Finn. He's a hero right? Why aren't you using that to suggest what comes next? Have you looked and seen that his development doesn't align well to the model? That Finn has no "Road of Trials". And no actual "Temptation"? That there is no actual "boon" for Finn which would actually drive his 3rd act if this fully followed the Campbell model (which it does not).

    Look I'm not saying they won't jazz Finn up in EPIX, they're going to, and it's going to have tenuous connection to the previous movies. They are going to create a reason to follow Finn IN EPIX BECASUE you don't have one coming out of Ep 8. People may legitimately end up loving Finn the most based on how they try to salvage his development in EPIX, but it won't have anything to do with the development that preceded it, and that is bad movie making and (probably more importantly) bad story telling (which I think is what separates this trilogy from the other two. The ST has had better dialogue and acting than the PT and OT, but the thing that makes SW special is the story telling. And the ST falls flat here whereas the PT and OT soar in this area).
     
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  17. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Jedi Commander

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    You can frame it any way you want, but the question you're asking is simple. In this story Finn is one of the main characters. In this story he's one of the few members left of the Resistance and he's a hero of the Rebellion. In this story he's going to be one of the main pieces of the Rebellion's fight against the First Order.

    Finn is an important member of the story.

    Star Wars isn't just about force users. Maybe that's leading to your confusion. The Star Wars story includes Chewie, Han Solo, Padme, and Lando. One doesn't have to be a force user or superhero to have a reason to exist.
    I have a reason to follow Finn. I don't presume to talk about what others believe.
     
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  18. Rayjefury

    Rayjefury Force Sensitive

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    And neither your, nor I, nor anyone else can say how or why this is so. This is so very simple that you are making my point as well refusing to acknowledge it.

    I am confused as to your silence in arguing with others who have insinuated that Finn is justifiably less relevant because he isn't a Force User. Others have said this in this thread (and the Finn thread). I on the other hand have pointed out that Poe has a pathway forward and a reason to be followed in EPIX, and he isn't Force User. (It's the very first post of this thread). So my guess is that you're not going to get much traction with this argument.
     
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  19. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Jedi Commander

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    Except I did:
    This really isn't even a debate topic. Finn is clearly a hero in this story and a hero to the fledgling rebellion.

    You can continue to shadowbox with yourself about this topic, but this is where I'll gracefully bow out.

    Do we need Finn going forward? Of course.
    [​IMG]
     
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  20. Corn Cream

    Corn Cream Rebel General

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    You've made your point loud and clear. I've read most people's reasons for why Finn is needed, and they all sound thin. None of their reasons are good enough to spend a dime on. I wouldn't even watch it if it came on television. I don't care about a soldier switching sides. Especially when he never shown any desire to join the other side. Rian Johnson said Finn's decision was more personal and not ideological. SO. What the hell is wrong with that? He isn't Superman or Captain America. Finn was a civilian first. I would find him a more interesting if he didn't want to join them, but did things his own way. Why are so many afraid of Finn being his own man? That should be the question.
     
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