SPECULATION Do you think Snoke will be more powerful than Palpatine?

@master_shaitan, as one of the resident Plagueisites, maybe you can explain this for me: immortality is great and all and being somehow more powerful than the Force sounds awesome, but to what end? get chicks? swim in a pool of gold? extra bonus points for mileage?

i'm kinda joking but it's an earnest question: Snoke, Plagueis, whoever, they have to want something.
power for the sake of power isn't that interesting if you don't actually do anything with it.

so i like the idea of a "spiritual" bent to this.
the Church of the Force and the Knights of Ren are "worshippers" in a sense, rather than primarily militant organizations.

so what does Snoke/Plagueis believe?
is there an afterlife in this galaxy somehow bigger and better than Force ghosting?
and if you go there/achieve it, what does it get you?

 

Isn't that kind of what the sith and the Jedi represented though, they in there own way were a religion of sorts and both of which had extremist views albeit at opposite ends of the moralistic scale.

I suppose they could elaborate on that theme though and bring it more to the foreground, which would give an interesting added aspect to the story.

 

Maybe he doesn't want something but someone? Plagueis was said to keep the ones he cared about from dying - who did he care about? Now, remove Plagueis from this and let's say Snoke has a loved one who was injured along with him at some point. What if Snoke is trying to keep them alive and the Dark Side enables him to do that? I don't know about his own beliefs, I'd bet he uses the "religion of the dark side" to brainwash Kylo etc. Or maybe he believes but has become utterly corrupted by the Dark Side and his quest for power. But I'd find it very interesting if Snoke's quest was actually a personal one that had galactic consequences...


...a bit like Dr Freeze from Batman & Robin...okay, bad example!!!

 

no, that's actually a good example, though Freeze is genuinely tragic, whereas i can't see us ever mustering any empathy for the fishy-eyed toilet monster.
it would be quite evil for him to try to restore his own love/family/child/etc. by preying on the loves/family/children of others.

but it would also go far to explain why he could care less about the waste of people and resources that the Hosnian holocaust represents.

very intriguing....

 

That's an interesting take. Kylo Ren definitely appears as being convinced that he is doing the right thing: he is not cynical or power thirsty and he is ready to sacrifice people and family for the 'right cause'. He's a fanatic and it would make sense to see Snoke as his 'religious' leader. What's also interesting is the fact that Kylo Ren may loose his special place in the heart of Snoke, now that Rey has entered the game.

How would a fanatic react if he feels betrayed by his leader ?

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 8, 2017, Original Post Date: Nov 8, 2017 ---

Wow, my interest in Snoke has been more revived in these last two or three forum posts than it has in countless of videos, articles, etc...

 

Yeah, I can't see them even attempting to get us to feel sorry for him! But they might enable us to see why he is the way he is.
The problem I've had with Snoke is that in TFA, the FO seems more hell bent on causing chaos than actually taking over the galaxy. Snoke's biggest concern is Luke returning, presumably because the Jedi can bring balance to the Force - and that to me suggests he is seeking to keep the Dark Side as powerful as possible. I used to think he did it only for himself, because he wanted to survive. But you're right, for what end? Sidious sought galactic rule but was far more patient than Snoke. Snoke seems pretty desperate in TFA - presumably because he hasn't the time to sit back and allow events to play out, as Sidious did. And yes, his complete disregard for the resources that the Hosnian system could've provided his "Empire" is telling.

Yeah, I think it patently obvious, even to Kylo Ren deep down, that Snoke will happily ditch him at some point. Ren knows this to be true when his father told him: "When he gets what he wants he will crush you". Unfortunately, Ren's own arrogance and perhaps allegiance to Snoke gets in the way. But with Ren, I think what will help redeem him will be the realisation that Snoke's way isn't the right way. That doesn't mean he will instantly return to the light and think the Jedi/Republic way is right. He will just see that the Dark Side doesn't hold the answers. It is this war of ideology that needs to be fought in the real world vs the religious extremists. And if the OT was showing us the threat of the Empire (that was prevalent in the real world at the time - both in regards to the USSR and US Imperialism), then perhaps this is the right story to tell for our time?

I think it will be interesting if they do examine the "religion" behind the Dark Side. In the PT and OT, those that used the Dark Side did so in the quest for their own power. And although that is always essentially the underlying motivation for people that wield the Dark Side, there could be an extra element at play where they truly believe they are "serving God"...

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 8, 2017, Original Post Date: Nov 8, 2017 ---

To a point, but I think it was more spiritual for the Jedi than religious - and for the Sith it was only ever about personal power.
Sidious didn't care for the Dark Side itself, beyond what it provided him. Perhaps there will be a new type of Dark Side servant that seeks to empower it because he or she believes in it/loves it as someone would their messiah/God?

When you loom at Snoke, he has all the hallmarks of the corrupt religious figure head - check out his opulent attire! And we know Ren has this view that he is "better than everyone else" because of his Force power - a mirror of how an extremist views anyone outside his or her religion as below them.

 

he can go spit! : o p

i dunno if i agree with this, creating initial chaos is part of the plan for overthrowing the New Republic. but it also seems like JJ Abrams removed any semblance of planfulness and care from the FO in TFA. in the novel you get a much deeper sense that they are working toward something and not just being destructive--they are actively building what they think will be a better ruling structure for the galaxy. and you see more clearly Hux's frustration with Snoke's edict to destroy the whole system and how he seems to feel like Kylo Ren is muddying the plan. and in general, in the book Hux feels even more fanatical, but much less unhinged (it's a very controlled fanaticism as opposed to just psychosis).

and there's Snoke, just sort of sitting above it all, watching these dancing fleas and caring very little for any of it so long as Ren is in his thrall and the Luke problem is under control. : o p

 

very telling indeed.. it basically takes away the goal of 'Ruling' everyone in this galaxy like Sheev wanted to.

left behind are only a couple of options...

annihilation:-
interesting if it is this.. as it will blatantly include the FO once he is done with them. unlikely as well though as he didn't seem hell bent on blowing the Hosnian system.

personal:-
i'm not entirely sure i like this Mr Freeze idea, where he is seeking more and more dark side power to keep somebody alive.
When i read your post i actually thought of the Mummy movie (1999 version) in which dude is trying to resurrect his old flame.. Anck Su Namun.


purely seeking to suppress the light side (stop Luke from training Jedi) and increase the dark does fit with your idea.

 

Another interesting quote from Plagueis, considering all this talk of extremists:

“Consider the mind-set of the anarchist who plans to sacrifice himself for a cause.
For the weeks, months, possibly years leading up to the day he straps a thermal detonator to his chest and executes his task, he has lived in and strengthened by the secret he carries, knowing the toll his act will take. So it has been for the Sith, residing in a secret, sacred place of knowledge for one thousand years, and knowing the toll our acts will take. This is power, Sidious. Where the Jedi, by contrast, are like beings who, as they move among the healthy, keep secret the fact that they are dying of a terminal illness. The true power needn’t bare claws or fangs, or announce itself with snarls and throaty barks, Sidious. It can subdue with manacles of shimmer silk, purposeful charisma and political astuteness"

 

More powerful but not more evil.

 

It's interesting because I see a different possible development. As I said, I believe that Kylo Ren genuinely believes he is doing the right thing and his allegiance to Snoke is an allegiance to ideas, not to the leader. And I suspect that Snoke is using these ideas to achieve a personal goal : as soon as Kylo Ren will realize this, I would not expect him to change his mind about the ideas if he really is a fanatic. I think a devoted fanatic would overthrow the leader and maybe take his place to fulfill rightfully these ideals. If Ren's redemption is not going to happen, this would be a possible path.

 

Now, here's another thought :

if we reinsert Plagueis into this situation, we might have something potentially remarkable, if it's true:

- Snoke was saved by Plagueis (who could not save himself)

- Snoke learned Palpatine was responsible for Plagueis

- Snoke retreated to the Unknown Regions and called out / reached out to Palpatine

- After Palpatine's fall, Snoke later assumed control of the Empire as a means to harness enough power to bring Plagueis back to life (and with the intent of casting aside Kylo / the First Order the moment he got what he needed (e.g. Luke Skywalker and Rey) to achieve this).

 

the problem with this is that it suggests he doesn't know what he needs/wants in TFA.
he's not actively looking for Luke or other Force users so far as we know.
he seems just fine with Luke remaining lost out there.

Luke is a particular threat, it seems.
whether the result of some vision or Luke's special Light-sidedness, this seems more personal.

 

A slightly different perspective; the lack of information or exposure of snoke in comparison to the other characters makes me question his significance/longevity in the series. Maybe he bites the dust at someone's hand in TLJ. It would be an interesting departure from the old master/apprentice trope. Especially if it were rey who kills him.

Possible?

 

I do find it interesting Snoke asks Kylo to bring Rey to Snoke after Kylo mentions her.

Further problematic, though, is that, if Rey is supposed to be stronger than Luke, then Snoke must feel pretty good about himself to place himself in proximity to such a potentially capable Force user.

Well, as the Oracle would have said, "It is a pickle, no doubt about it."

=)

 

all of this is explained in the book.
Snoke doesn't think Rey is any big deal. he thinks Ren is being a flibbity-gibbet about the whole thing.
he asks Ren to bring Rey so that he can punish Ren--probably by either torturing her and making Ren watch, or forcing Ren to torture her himself.
and once Snoke discounts Rey's power you get the sense that Ren decides to defy Snoke by developing his own agenda.

now, a lot of this isn't as black and white in the movie (all we get is that single offer to train her that seems to come out of nowhere).
but if all this other business is canonical, it makes sense and indicates that Snoke has no clue whatsoever about Rey's actual value in terms of power.

 

I'll need to see Snoke in action before I can answer this question.

 

At the risk that @SkyloBen10 is Mike Zeroh...

My Force, I wish to all depths of the dark side that people would stop posting this clown's stuff... all it does is encourage him.

 

"No one knows the limits of his own power until it has been tested to the utmost, as yours has not been." (Snoke to Kylo Ren, TFA novel)
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That line was really interesting to me. It's almost as if Snoke implied his own power was already tested (and that might explain his injuries).

There was speculation that Snoke once tested his power by tricking his previous apprentice into killing him whilst "sleeping". Because how can you really know you've conquered death until you've put it to the test? (Yeah, I'm another one of those wretched Plagueisites )

In real-life, 'Supreme Leader' can refer to a religious person who deems themselves to be a manifestation of god, so that might hint at what Snoke believes and wants for himself.

What if he suffers from a god complex? What if he believes he's the living manifestation of the Force, a supreme intellect emanating all its knowledge and principles, to the point believing himself to be the sole rightful leader and that all beings should bow in gratitude?

Snoke wants complete authority and control over the galaxy and the Force. I think Snoke's disdain for the Jedi could be because he views them as holding the galaxy back. As @master_shaitan alluded to, a dark-sider seeks to make the Force subservient to their own will, whereas a light-sider the opposite. A dark-sider that can amass great power over the Force can expose the Jedi's ignorance of the Force's true nature. And if the Jedi are unaware of the hidden secrets of the Force (such as immortality/creating life/saving people from death), can they claim to really know what's best for the galaxy?

I think that's a possible driving motivation behind Snoke (or any dark-sider for that matter) - to expose the Jedi as weak impostors, and that only a being who's unlocked the Force's true nature can lead the galaxy to where it's meant to be.

 

I have no comment or question about Snoke or his motivations.. I just wanted to type 'fibbity-gibbet'.

I love the phrase, but I have to ask..
what in Sam hill is a fibbity-gibbet?