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Does anyone else feel that the new films ruined the ending of ROTJ?

Discussion in 'Original Trilogy' started by VOODOO, Jan 8, 2018.

  1. VOODOO

    VOODOO Rebelscum

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    Am I the only fan who thinks that the sequel films have ruined the ending or Return of the Jedi and invalidated the rebel victory on Endor?

    At the end of Return of the Jedi the rebels had achieved what we thought was the death blow to the Empire. Both Darth Vader and Emperor Palpentine were dead and our heroes were last seen riding off into the sunset. The story seemed to be over.

    By the time of The Force Awakens all these victories essentially meant nothing. The Empire (First Order) was back in control and the Rebels (Resistance) were on the run again.

    The story of Star Wars was told in Episodes 1-6. It was the rise, fall and redemption of Anakin Skywalker. There was as George Lucas famously said “no more story to tell” ...That was of coarse until Disney paid $4 billion to purchase Star Wars and bring it into the modern era. Not for artistic reasons, but for the simple reason they knew they would literally make billions and billions of dollars...In so doing they invalidated the ending of ROTJ and made the original films less important.

    In my humble opinion they should have left this universe alone. I would have preferred to see SW end with ROTJ and the iconic characters riding off into the sunset after providing an inspirational victory that could be celebrated for generations rather than seeing these same legendary characters killed off and given depressing ends in order to boost Disney’s botton line.

    SW was complete with the triumphant ending of Return of the Jedi and it should have stayed that way. The sequels were totally unnecessary and are not essential. They made the victory of ROTJ hollow and nothing, but a short term victory and gave a totally new/less satisfying meaning to the series.
     
    #1 VOODOO, Jan 8, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2018
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  2. SethW

    SethW Rebelscum

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    I agree. Yet we live in a world where riding off into the sunset is no longer a device left to the imagination; more so a spring board for the milking of a franchise. That being said, I am glad they are making more Star Wars media (films, tv shows, videogames, etc.) because I want to see the universe expanded. Will everything be "good"? Probably not, but now there is a reignited interest in exploring the universe, so as more Star Wars entertainment is made, there's more of a chance of seeing some really cool stuff.

    Going back to the point, yes, Lucas had no plans for Episode 7. If he did, it probably would have been made in the 90's, and would see Luke creating his academy, whilst Leia tries to create a new republic, and perhaps Han and friends can hunt down the remaining Imperials. Those stories are eluded to in Force Awakens and not the main plot of the film itself, most likely due to the ages of the key actors and the nostalgia for the OT.

    Does Ep7 kind of undermine the message of ROTJ? A little, but don't forget that although the First Order has some nice toys, I believe that is has nowhere near the control and power the Empire had. The First Order seems more effective because of their weaponry and their choice of targets, but much like the Resistance, their numbers are diminishing, especially with fractured leadership (especially after Ep8).

    To avoid more rambling I'll just add this tldr; I agree, but nowadays movies need sequels, and this was the closest they could get to fulfilling what most people wanted.
     
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  3. TheSenate

    TheSenate Rebel Trooper

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    Yes. A million times yes. It's the reason why the Force Awakens is, in my eyes, the worst film out of all of them.
     
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  4. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Rebel Official

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    Don't take my word for it, but to Mark Hamill you listen



    I had no idea how much he apparently argued with Rian Johnson (and presumably TPTB) that the character of Luke Skywalker or a Jedi wouldn't just quit the way he did in TLJ.

    For me, the ending of ROTJ were only ruined if I took the Sequel Trilogy more serious than I should.

    But after TLJ I find myself unable to take the ST serious at all, so in a twisted way I'm grateful for that as I consider the 6 original George Lucas films to be the ones the determine the Saga.
     
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  5. clustercosmos

    clustercosmos Clone Trooper

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    It will be interesting to see how those films are viewed in future years. When new kids start watching they could find out Endor was largely in vain the same day as they watch RotJ. That Luke is not near the hero he appears. Han and Leia's love is more of a fling. I wonder how the heroes of those tales will feel to those whom their accomplishments were always so much smaller. Are those stories enriched by the new movies or diminished? I can't help but feel they were used in a way to make plot points the ST in a way that diminishes their earlier impact. They don't all need to have been a happily ever after but they didn't have to go so depressingly badly either.

    Yes, the OT has become embedded in a larger universe, but is the overall story as captivating? I am not sure. It feels like a failure of imagination to reset the story so much and I don't understand why the baby had to go out with the bathwater along the way.

    That being said, I sense that many of our responses (and I include myself in this) to one film we didn't enjoy have been a tad hysterical (and this comment may be another example). There is another film yet; it could all turn out brilliantly. I do sympathise with the sentiment of this thread, though.
     
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  6. Bendak Starkiller

    Bendak Starkiller Force Sensitive

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    Nope.

    Besides if Lucas really felt there was "no more story to tell," he should have not sold SW to Disney.
     
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  7. Ruralfarmboy

    Ruralfarmboy Jedi General

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    I, Politely, Respectfully (@VOODOO ) DisAgree ... you an' Them that (@SethW @TheSenate )

    To me, an Amateur History Geek ...
    This is like someone (Anyone) saying ...
    Wolrld War II Didn't Matter because World War I was Fought .
    What !?
    Viet Nam Didn't Matter coz the Korean War was fought.
    What !?

    HISTORY Matters .
    In Our World ... AND In The GFFA .
    And IN The Story Telling of The Story .

    Yinz ... Listen ... If Ya Don't Know Where Ya Come From ... well, Ya AIN'T Gonna Get To Where Yer Goin' To.
    Goes for OUR Heroes TOO .
    It's in the 'Real World' AND in Our Fantasy.

    What Happens now, after a time Becomes History.
    NOW and In Fantasy .
    The Fantasy Story We Love !

    LEARN Where Ya Come From.
    Gets Ya TO ! Where You're Goin' To ... Who/What Yer Gonna Be.
    It's In Star Wars.
    OT .
    PT .
    ST!
    Wrong !
    What !?!
    Rey Told Us, To Luke- In front of Chewbacca that ... "The First Order Would Have Control of All The Major Star Systems Within In Weeks."
    What ??
    What Film were You Watching ??
     
    #7 Ruralfarmboy, Jan 8, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2018
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  8. TheSenate

    TheSenate Rebel Trooper

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    Okay, @Ruralfarmboy, um, could you please rephrase? I'm genuinely having trouble understanding as to what your point is.
     
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  9. Ruralfarmboy

    Ruralfarmboy Jedi General

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    Me ??
    "rephrase" ... as you ask.
    What don't you understand that's been said.
    I'll Gladly, So Long as You understand what's come Before (Now/Fantasy) and Where It's Goin'.

    If One Doesn't Know Where One Comes From ... well ... Ya Won't Get To Where you Are Goin'



    Of Any, You've the Least to say @TheSenate ... but I'lll Gladly Help ... if I Can.

    Yep.

    And, Believe Me, ... I Wanna Help... If I Can.
     
    #9 Ruralfarmboy, Jan 9, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2018
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  10. CTrent29

    CTrent29 Rebel Official

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    I don't think so. The characters in "ROTJ" achieved what they had set out to do.
     
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  11. Ruralfarmboy

    Ruralfarmboy Jedi General

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    Yep.
    My point is that because one incident that happens in current time doesn't make an incident similar to it in past time, not valid.
    Weather in Our real world or in a fantasy story like the one we love.
    Get me now :) ?
     
    #11 Ruralfarmboy, Jan 9, 2018
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  12. JediMasterRobert

    JediMasterRobert Rebel Official

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    I think the victories did stand for something significant.

    I believe had Luke + Vader not overpowered Sidious, he would still be in control, possibly as Luke's master, and continuing his subjugation of the galaxy in a far more efficient and frightening manner than the First Order seems currently capable of (even with their massive SKB).

    The Empire would have only gained more control, and the conflict would have been extended indefinitely, as long as the Rebellion could survive.

    Which might not have been long had Luke be successfully lured over to the Dark Side. Even worse so if Luke had joined Vader, overthrown the Emperor, and they ruled the galaxy as son and father.

    What few knew was that Palpatine had the Contingency in place:
    http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Contingency

    ...a key part of that being Operation Cinder
    http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Operation:_Cinder

    So, in this extended Star Wars history timeline, post-ROTJ, Palpatine had every intention to shape the fate of the galaxy even after he was long gone.

    With that in mind, the Rebel victory of the Empire could reverberate and last so long before there was some kind of phoenix-like rebirth of Imperial forces reformulated under a new name but with a similar intent of regaining galactic control.


    I agree it would have been nice to think this victory and fairly happy ending could have lasted for generations.

    As we now know, it lasted about one generation.

    If we were granted extended glimpses into the lives of heroes in any extended story, we would eventually see them beyond their peak ideals and get to know them in ways we would probably either not recognize them or accept them for what they became.

    In that sense, it is often nice when storytellers don't push past that final, hard-fought sense of heroic closure attained after some decisive conflict.

    The reality extrapolated from that point on, for any given hero, would not be so inspirational.

    And yet, in fact, we already see thing in the Original Trilogy through two key figures: Yoda and Obi-Wan Kenobi.

    Both of these are post-Jedi Order exiles who have gone into hiding after failures. Obi-Wan explains much of this in the OT, and we learn why Yoda is on Dagobah through the Prequel Trilogy.

    Vader himself is also a post-ideal hero turned villain after the Prequel Trilogy, a walking menace whose epic failures in judgement seem hidden from the world.

    Thanks to Luke, he did have a happy ending, and returned as the Jedi he once was.

    Beyond these examples, we know the Star Wars galaxy is large, complex, and full of individuals with competing agendas and variable levels of awareness of the Force, the Empire, what is good, and so forth.

    This almost certainly ensures that, in any generation, there may be the potential for one or more individuals to rise to power, consolidate that power in some Palpatine manner, and use that power not to advance peace but to produce wealth or power, or, at the very least, to ensure the cycle of suffering continues in some way.

    When we meet elder Luke, we see someone who has witnessed much of the galactic conflict firsthand, and he is also aware of the fallen Jedi behind him, their errors, and the consequences of all these bad decisions which, even with the best intentions in mind, often only resulted in more suffering.

    Breaking from that cycle in some meaningful and powerful way is something I've long contended Luke should promote, as of TFA/TLJ, if he truly had gained some wisdom from his unique role and perspective in the context of these galactic happenings.

    To do that, though, he would have to had, as Yoda urged him years ago, to "unlearn what you have learned."

    This would also mean he had to be a different person with a newly informed outlook, to become someone who could act with a sense of importance, unmistakable conviction, even if such actions seemed to be at odds with what others expected of him.

    I think he had to defy those expectations, not revert and act in a manner to meet those expectations. He had to do what he knew he had to do.

    Kylo Ren is now infamous after saying, "I know what I have to do, but I don't know if I have the strength to do it."

    He thought he found the strength, in TFA, to act in a manner he thought he had to act, in great part because Snoke lead him to believe that was how he was going to become what he wanted to become, like the Vader he thought he knew and revered.

    As for Luke, his decisions will continue to be debated, I'm sure, as people come to terms with, or contend against, his reasoning for being where he was and acting as he did. I do believe, though, that there is a path to understanding this, one as challenging as the one Rey walked up on the island to meet Mythical Luke Skywalker.

    She was proceeding up toward her expectation, bringing along with her the expectations of the Resistance to rejoin the battle he decided not to give into as of Return of the Jedi.

    And, like many of us, she wanted to change his mind, see Legendary Luke in action once again. What she -- as we -- got was something unexpected.

    One way I think about it: we might not have gotten the Luke we wanted, but we perhaps we -- and Rey -- got the Luke who was needed.

    That his final act seemed to inspire potential future Jedi across the galaxy is a good sign to me:

    his actions would not be in vain, and in his ending others would find their beginnings.

    In a powerful sense, Luke destroyed one myth personally but ultimately created a new one -- for himself and all those in the future in need of A New Hope. Very phoenix-like as well!

    And I want to believe this would positively change galactic history for many generations to come.
     
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  13. TheSenate

    TheSenate Rebel Trooper

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    Oh, yeah. Thank you.
     
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  14. Ruralfarmboy

    Ruralfarmboy Jedi General

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    My Apologies to ya, Friend, for putting it it a long winded way (as I usually do with most things).
    Didn't intend for it to be confusing.
     
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  15. VOODOO

    VOODOO Rebelscum

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    What I meant to say, but wasn’t very clear was that the victory could have lasted for the viewers of the film for generations not necessarily the characters. To me the Star Wars films were complete and they had become classics. The heroes had overcome the threat and were now riding off into the sunset. Classic Hollywood ending...I prefer to think of Han, Luke + Leia in that light than the ending the tacked sequels have given them.
     
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  16. HothLeia

    HothLeia Rebel General

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    Some good points in the thread, some I respectfully disagree with. While I was hoping Han and Leia had more of a happily ever after, I still don't think of their relationship as a fling in the sequels. (And to be fair, it wasn't flowers and sunshine in the EU). I got the sense they had a good relationship for awhile, had a son together, and even loved each other in TFA. I was given the impression the separation was due to Ben going Dark Side and Leia not being able to cope with seeing Han because of it. I would have been more upset if they moved on with new love interests, etc. The feelings never faded (you can tell by the music when Han sees Leia in TFA) but you can tell things are difficult. I do wish they ended it with one more I love you/I know before Han faced his fate.

    I like the sequels, but I agree that I would have rather seen Finn, Poe, Rey in a series separate from the original (or taking place hundreds or thousands of years later). At first, I was so excited for the old heroes to return, but so disappointed to know that we won't see them together for a final run. Perhaps a cameo of Force Ghost Luke would have been nice to tie it together. They still could have tied in Vader, the Falcon, the Force, the great legends of the past, and new "Empire" without bringing Han,Luke, and Leia into it. I would have liked references to the originals as if they were great legends/myths/heroes of old etc.
     
    #16 HothLeia, Jan 9, 2018
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  17. VOODOO

    VOODOO Rebelscum

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    I agree that the sequels should have had all new characters. It would have been better for the new characters to stand on their own and there was just no need to bring back the classic characters. Their story was already told. I suspect that the classic characters were only brought back because their return was guaranteed box office. I also submit those characters were not used in the way most fans would have wanted to see them used.
     
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  18. NotQyteNeo

    NotQyteNeo Force Sensitive

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    To some degree - yes. At this point, unless ep IX is knocked out of the park, the ST is going to have a net worth far less than the PT IMO. TFA had it's cool and fun moments. But essentially it is 2 hours of "We're going to give you the Disney version of ANH". TLJ, if I think of it as a non-SW movie, then GREAT - it's a damn fun entertaining movie. But it does not feel like a SW film. To me, it is Aliens meets The Chronicles of Riddick meets The Hobbit.

    I really like TLJ, just not as s Star Wars movie.
     
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  19. kuatorises

    kuatorises Clone Commander

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    The new trilogy takes place 30 years after the original one. nothing is going to stay the same after 30 years. Nothing.. Especially when it involves humanity (or other 17 beings. true peace is literally impossible.
     
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  20. General_Tarkin

    General_Tarkin Rebel General

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    You're definitely not the only one. Ever since TFA this topic constantly brought up.

    Partially maybe. But if you look at the trilogies as two completely separate times than maybe not.
    I always say the same thing to this: Did the break out of World War II ruin the efforts of World War I?

    In my headcanon the times of RotJ were always followed by chaos and uncertainty. It's naive to think a group of spies and thieves would manage to rebuild the Republic so fast. They weren't even that powerful or supported... And even if they would, it would most likely take a very long time to finally repair the damage of the Empire. Because what about the Empire sympathisers? What about those who don't want to chose either and want independence? And what about people like the Hutts who especially fish in muddy waters?

    Civil wars very rarely lead instantaneously to peaceful democracies. The change between systems often takes long time and the interregnum period can even be more bloody...
    Just think about the aftermath of the French Revolution. Or Cromwell's Protectorate after the English Civil War...

    Or even how WWII was followed by the cold war.
    Or how Westeros fell into a deep civil war after Robert Baratheon died in GoT... To pick a fantasy example.
    What about the legacy of Anakin Skywalker?
     
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