Does anyone else feel that the new films ruined the ending of ROTJ?

I agree that the new films ruined the original trilogy.

Hopefully Episode 10-12 will bring back another clone Palpatine and finally close that story arc.

Maybe it'll even have a grown up baby clone Yoda and Luuke Skywalker. I say bring back the whole clone cast! It'll be like 7-9 never happened!

 

I dislike the fact that they shy away from acknowledging canon material like The Clone Wars or Rebels—voice cameos whatever—which would make the whole saga come together properly. Instead we got a new set of characters that ended up being weirdly fleshed out, same final boss ever since the 80's and the whole fan community divided over what should be a Celebration, Capital Coruscant C. Anyway, in a few years they may give us the Terminator: Dark Fate treatment and simply ignore some of the films ever took place? Hope to be alive to witness it anyway!

 

Those aren't parts of the saga. The saga is the episodic movies.
And how can you say bring in Rebels and Clone Wars then also say same bad guy is a negative in the ST when both CW and Rebels used the same badguys as a lot of the movies.

And what else would you expect from animation other than voice overs? Especially ones set so far in the past everyone is probably dead or too old to matter too much now.

 

Sorry @RoyleRancor, I'm not a fundamentalist about my tastes in fiction, and I need to say that I grew up watching these films over and over again. I recently engaged in a full franchise marathon (won't use saga again as not to offend your way of categorising it, you're free to do it however you deem fit). My point is that I don't get the reason of keeping movies, series, comics and all different kinds of Star Wars media separated, as if we were dumb not to understand it as a whole.

Why set the Sequel Saga so far in the future? Because the original actors were old? Got a name for you: Grand Moff Tarkin (in Rogue One). They pulled that of beautifully. Ah, but I forgot, that's not part of the saga for you. Stick to only 9 episodes then, I'll keep exploring the whole Galaxy and make up my own opinions on it.

 

The simple answer is obviously, no. If you don’t like the new movies, don’t watch them. RotJ can still be YOUR ending.

Personally, I was never a big fan of RotJ. ANH & ESB blew my mind as a kid but RotJ just didn’t. I always found the Ewok party and the force ghost ending super cringy, so I’m glad it got sorta retconned.

RotJ is also really disappointing/underwhelming when you hear some of the original ideas George/Kasdan had for it. Luke taking over the Empire and “becoming” the new Vader, Han sacrificing himself for the rebellion, Luke having a twin sister (that wasn’t Leia) etc.

The ST reused/repurposed a lot of stuff from George & Kasdan original ideas for RotJ and beyond...which I think gets overlooked. Spoiler alert, George had the idea for Luke to become a grumpy recluse long before JJ or Rian were hired by LucasFilm. It would have happened anyway.

 

Fundamentalist?
No, just being pragmatic and not as "woe as me" as some.
The saga is very obviously the episodic movies. Always has been. Your determination to stretch that is a very thinly veiled attempt to create an issue where there really is none. But good effort on that one.

The end of the saga is an end to those episodic films so they CAN explore more of the galaxy. But again, clutch them pearls baby.


And yes, because they are old. Lucas chose to make a prequel series instead of a continuation series. And no, Tarkin in R1 would not suffice for an entire movie. But thanks for suggesting it and all but confirming low level troll status. Have a good one.

 

Just to maybe optimistically try to find some common ground- personally, I think the idea of the "saga" is how Royle sees it. That being the episodic, main installments of the Skywalker films. The numbered ones.

The other stuff is fantastic, too- the comics, video games, shows, and the board games are some of my favorite. Heck, Rebels is some of the best Star Wars there is. But I see it as supplemental, and that's not a bad thing. In fact, I think that's one of the strongest things about Star Wars- it's this epic heroic tale, but it's set in this deeply fleshed out, wildly complex and huge galaxy. The setting itself feels alive when it's done right, and we have two main canons to draw from, too.

But is the Doctor Aphra comic series part of the "saga"? How about the Sunny Day in the Void episode of Clone Wars? Is my last play of the canon-adjacent board game Imperial Assault? Would you really define the Crimson Corsair short story as being an installment of the "Saga"?

Because even though I think that the idea of a saga has a bit of slack in its possible definition, I'm really not sure that everything Star Wars has to be that. And further, Rogue One could be more supplemental, too. It's still a great film, and absolutely has a place in my marathoning (unlike the shows) but that's more or less by virtue of it being a movie. If Rogue One was a TV show, I wouldn't devote the time to it on a marathon.

 

I mean, they literally market the "complete saga" as episodes 1-9 so there isn't exactly a whole lot of wiggle room for what the "Star Wars saga" is IMO.
It's a very specific aspect of the Star Wars world.

That is the core of Star Wars as we know it currently
Bringing in things in more than small easter eggs or cameos from secondary sources (cartoons, books, TV) is asking the viewer to do more work and will likely greatly confuse and turn off general audiences who don't want to go watch 4 seasons of a cartoon to know why people care Freddie Prinze Jr is shagging a green lady in a movie

The MCU doesn't ask you to invest in other mediums for their stories to work. Other movies, yes. But other mediums? No.
The brilliance of the MCU was creating such a vast array of genres within the "MCU formula" to keep people coming back to so many movies. Star Wars can't do that because people just complain about it "not being Star Wars".

Anyways. That kind of went off the rails on a mini rant there but yeah, the saga is clearly episodic movies and unless they are ending the other stuff too, IDK why anyone would expect them to be in the saga finale

 

I absolutely agree.

I guess I'm just saying that someone could define what Star Wars is to them, but they don't need to reinvent the meaning of "saga" to do that.

We can compartmentalize what we love without redefining what they mean. But hey- either way it's no skin off my back. C'est la vie.

 

Hey guys keep it civil and keep the name calling out, thanks

 

Although it look good in Rogue One but it was only used in small amount of time in the film. The current tech isn't there yet to do a feature length film. Even using the flashback in Episode 9 would be a stretch. In the future it would be possible but not with 2014 to 2019 tech if you want to make it believable, we're not there yet. Also that type of tech will (has) create a moral issue that we as a society isn't ready to face yet. Realistically, any story between the OT and TFA that deals with Original cast is best to be animated (like TCW or Rebels), the fandom as a whole isn't ready for a complete re-cast of original 3 especially for Luke. People had a heart attack on what they did with Solo, people would literally flat-line if they did younger Luke. People already complained about a shadow silhouette of a younger Luke in Rebels.

I do agree that Lucas big mistake was doing the Prequels instead of a proper sequels since the Prequels didn't really need the original 3 in-order for it to work.

 

There are already people who are very uncomfortable with the use of CGI'ing long dead actors for roles. It's a bit more passable in small amounts or the recently deceased who could offer their consent, but there's a studio wanting to use a fully digital rendering of James Dean for a movie. That's kind of blasted up. Part of the greatness of Dean is the limited catalog and what we didn't get.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 18, 2020, Original Post Date: Aug 18, 2020 ---

Right. What Star Wars "is", will always be up to the individual. And that's why no one will ever make a Star War that satisfies everyone ever again

 

Exactly. That's why a feature length movie with with nothing but that tech will never be viable option. it's best to do a re-cast at that point. Sadly some of the fandom don't know how to separate star wars characters from actors.

 

I can't say that Return is necessarily disappointing. The special effects department worked their butts off, and it shows still. I think in context, Lucas was making a joke about Luke becoming Vader for the ending, which Kasdan thought was a great idea. Lucas refuted the idea, saying that Star Wars was for kids.

Plot-wise I think that there were some aesthetic choices that I would have selected differently. You have to remember; Lucasfilm was on a timetable; at some point they had to get the film done. Which is probably why Lucas held a meeting with Kasdan, Marquand, and Kanzajian. I think the effect of having too many cooks hurt the film. The 1st rough draft summary of Revenge of the Jedi is actually really good, imo. However, the meeting introduced ideas that (from a plot perspective and my thoughts on it) made the film more confusing, kiddy, and ineffective. I think that they revised the film too much.

Anyway.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 18, 2020, Original Post Date: Aug 18, 2020 ---

Same final boss since Return of the Jedi. Not A New Hope (the empire- Tarkin- the council members- Vader) or The Empire Strikes Back- (Vader and the Empire).

 

I agree with your tally @The Birdwatcher; I meant Palpatine has ended up being the Final Boss of each Trilogy. He appears in human form (Prequel Trilogy), hologram (The Empire Strikes Back, probably hadn't been created by A New Hope's release) and as as proxy in Snoke (Sequel Trilogy), before showing up in his ugly-as-a-freight-train persona for the third and last act of each Skywalker Saga iteration. Will we ever be ready for a new, Sheev-less Trilogy? Only time will tell...

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 19, 2020 ---

I have to agree with you on this one @deadmanwalkin009 . When I originally watched Solo I did feel a disconnection between my childhood memories and what was being shown on the screen; I recently rewatched it and enjoyed it a lot, but I did need to overlook the not-Harrison-Ford situation more intently.

 

I’m very mixed on this after watching TROS multiple times now at home.

On one hand, bringing back The Emperor (and making Rey related to him) ties the 9 movies together. The 9 movies are essentially the Palpatine vs Skywalker Saga, from that point of view.

But bringing back The Emperor does cheapen Anakin’s sacrifice in ROTJ because that was the ultimate moment of the Saga (at the time). Now it’s just a moment of the Saga.

Still mixed.....

 

I take that back my friend, as @cawatrooper said, I'll keep it civil and did get too carried away with my love for the Galaxy, which we all share and is the common ground for this very Forum to exist in the first place. Pragmatic is the word.

True, then again I can't compare Tarkin's importance to the franchise to that of Leia, Luke or Han. Even just the glimpse of the Princess at the end of R1 needs a little leap of faith.

Totally on point here too... I did go for a full-franchise Star Wars marathon, but when I considered the same idea for the MCU—and put together a list of all the media involved—I went yeah... nah, maybe when I retire.

I just meant I don't get "married" to official definitions about what Star Wars is or is supposed to be, as its keeps (and will keep on) changing over the years. I guess I'll use Skywalker Saga from now on to be clear on what Episodes I – IX are about. And I'll be careful not to be a fundamentalist myself, as only Sith deal in absolutes and I'd like to become more of a Rebel. Total respect for you and your views @RoyleRancor ; ROFL with your Freddie Prinze Jr shagging a green lady bit!

 

I am really starting to dislike and disagree with the idea that "Anakin's sacrifice" should be the crux all of Star Wars and of the saga. Technically, it's Vader's sacrifice, not Anakin's, too. He makes the choice when he's Vader. And Vader still has good in him.

Does the emperor coming back nullify the sacrifice? I don't know. If Vader had used his brain more, he could have choked the emperor from behind, threw random stuff at the emperor from around the room, or summoned one of two a lightsabers in the air to strike him down, without needing to suffer bodily harm while still doing the right thing. Vader died because he couldn't find an alternative to destroying the emperor besides chucking him into a pit. Apparently, that was the best option? It still looks weird with the emperor firing his bolts into the air, with some of them arcing back to hit Vader's suit. Why do they hit his suit at that arc I don't really know. Why does Vader's suit absorb them when it looks like it's made of plastic/a protective covering? I guess there was an opening somewhere or the Emperor hit Vader with powerful enough lightning bolts?

Whether the Emperor lives or dies after the fact, the sacrifice was still made and Anakin redeems himself in the process. Nothing can change that.

Vader still had good in himself; he never redeemed himself if he had some good to begin with. The point of redeeming is to make a bad thing good. Vader was both bad and good. Granted, Vader's evil was great and his goodness was small, but it doesn't warrant any redemption, imo. The only way I can see it is if somehow Vader was on a certain side and had to make a sacrifice to go the (light side). But it's confusing because being good IS being on the light side, and Vader is said to be good before the Emperor throne room scenes and even in The Empire Strikes Back with his care for Luke and reluctance to kill him and the one imperial commander at the end.

But bringing back The Emperor does cheapen Anakin’s sacrifice in ROTJ because that was the ultimate moment of the Saga (at the time). Now it’s just a moment of the Saga.

It's climatic because ROTJ WANTS DESPERATELY for you to think that. The cinematography and the music, along with Vader being helpless after the throw make it seem as a touching moment between Luke and Vader. In addition, the aftermath of Luke dragging Vader around and desperately trying to keep Vader alive makes the audience feel sympathy for Luke (even though Luke is obsessed with keeping Vader around). It's drug out sympathy and emotional with finally answering a potentially unnecessary question (what does Vader look like under the helmet?). Then, Vader looks sympathetic in appearance to gather sympathy from the audience, tbh. Then, Vader dies in order to make the death look tragic, even though it could have been avoided easily.

But Vader was seen as a villain in ANH and TESB, and Return has a hard time reconciling TESB's complex Vader role at times, focusing more on Vader being a victim, even though it does acknowledge his role as a villain with Obi-wan's dialogue. The quote "the emperor hasn't driven [it](the good) out of you fully" makes it seem as if Vader had no control or was deceived even though ANH and TESB has no indication of this. Vader was completely willing to be seduced by the dark side. Also, Vader was following the commands of the (sleeze-ball?) ROTJ emperor to the point it was driving the good out of him? I think that Vader was seduced by the dark side, not the Emperor. How is the Emperor responsible for it? It's Vader's decision.

The Rusty Cheeseknife pointed out that Luke said before approaching the emperor that anything that happened in the throne room was irrelevant, so the rebels were going to blow up the Death Star II, and Luke expected to be dead with the Emperor (Why Luke decided to get on the Death Star II anyway? I guess he really wanted to save Vader, though Vader was already "good" in Luke eyes. I don't understand it. I guess Luke wanted Vader to turn to the light side, even though Vader was already good, which would make you on the lightside already. Both lightside and dark side? Or was Vader not on a side and merely used the power of a certain side?).

But bringing back The Emperor does cheapen Anakin’s sacrifice in ROTJ because that was the ultimate moment of the Saga (at the time). Now it’s just a moment of the Saga.

It's climatic because ROTJ WANTS DESPERATELY for you to think that. The cinematography and the music, along with Vader being helpless after the throw make it seem as a touching moment between Luke and Vader. In addition, the aftermath of Luke dragging Vader around and desperately trying to keep Vader alive makes the audience feel sympathy for Luke (even though Luke is obsessed with keeping Vader around). It's drug out sympathy and emotional with finally answering a potentially unnecessary question (what does Vader look like under the helmet?). Then, Vader looks sympathetic in appearance to gather sympathy from the audience, tbh. Then, Vader dies in order to make the death look tragic, even though it could have been avoided easily.

But Vader was seen as a villain in ANH and TESB, and Return has a hard time reconciling TESB's complex Vader role at times, focusing more on Vader being a victim, even though it does acknowledge his role as a villain with Obi-wan's dialogue. The quote "the emperor hasn't driven [it](the good) out of you fully" makes it seem as if Vader had no control or was deceived even though ANH and TESB has no indication of this. Vader was completely willing to be seduced by the dark side. Also, Vader was following the commands of the (sleeze-ball?) ROTJ emperor to the point it was driving the good out of him? I think that Vader was seduced by the dark side, not the Emperor. How is the Emperor responsible for it? It's Vader's decision.

The Rusty Cheeseknife pointed out that Luke said before approaching the emperor that anything that happened in the throne room was irrelevant, so the rebels were going to blow up the Death Star II, and Luke expected to be dead with the Emperor (Why Luke decided to get on the Death Star II anyway? I guess he really wanted to save Vader, though Vader was already "good" in Luke eyes. I don't understand it. I guess Luke wanted Vader to turn to the light side, even though Vader was already good, which would make you on the lightside already. Both lightside and dark side? Or was Vader not on a side and merely used the power of a certain side?).

 

I've gone full circle back to 1980's gradeschool lunch debates, listening to people complain about Jedi.

Star Wars. Where even the complaints over the films will give you nostalgia.

That reminds me...should watch The Last Starfighter again.

Cheers,
Jayson