1. Due to the increased amount of spam bots on the forum, we are strengthening our defenses. You may experience a CAPTCHA challenge from time to time.
    Dismiss Notice
  2. Notification emails are working properly again. Please check your email spam folder and if you see any emails from the Cantina there, make sure to mark them as "Not Spam". This will help a lot to whitelist the emails and to stop them going to spam.
    Dismiss Notice
  3. IMPORTANT! To be able to create new threads and rate posts, you need to have at least 30 posts in The Cantina.
    Dismiss Notice
  4. Before posting a new thread, check the list with similar threads that will appear when you start typing the thread's title.
    Dismiss Notice

Does anyone else feel that the new films ruined the ending of ROTJ?

Discussion in 'Original Trilogy' started by VOODOO, Jan 8, 2018.

  1. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2015
    Posts:
    2,160
    Likes Received:
    6,601
    Trophy Points:
    16,467
    Credits:
    8,697
    Ratings:
    +9,540 / 39 / -14
    Ahhh.
    OK.

    Well, you clearly know the man changes his mind all the time, so I don't see an issue here other than that brought about by, as usual, Lucas making SW mean whatever he needs it to mean at THAT moment you asked him.

    I mean, we know Lucas was going to bring the Sith back in his ST plans anyway, so...I mean...if someone reads the prophecy as being an infinite state of the universe for good and evil after ROTJ in regards to Jedi vs. Sith, then even Lucas' ideas would have caused problems.

    His ideas included some variation of Darth Talon corrupting Han and Leia's son.

    Personally, I never read the prophecy that way though, so nothing was ever a problem no matter who or what came back around for me.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
    • Like Like x 2
  2. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Rebel Official

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2019
    Posts:
    881
    Likes Received:
    1,380
    Trophy Points:
    6,092
    Credits:
    1,746
    Ratings:
    +2,209 / 105 / -32
    And the people trying to use this idea as a criticism have no actual argument because TRoS makes it 100% clear that Anakin still fulfilled the prophecy and brought balance even though Palpatine came back.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  3. Kraven Head

    Kraven Head Rebelscum

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2018
    Posts:
    245
    Likes Received:
    326
    Trophy Points:
    1,877
    Credits:
    920
    Ratings:
    +539 / 16 / -5
    IIRC, in TFA, Leia mentioned Snoke always had an interest in Ben... Snoke being Palpatine's puppet means the Papatine/Sith never left.

    A millennia long prophecy once fullfed only lasting 10 years.... big let down IMO.

    "You were the Chosen One! You were supposed to destroy the Sith, not join them. You were supposed to bring balance to the force, not leave it in darkness.'
     
    • Like Like x 1
  4. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Rebel Official

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2019
    Posts:
    881
    Likes Received:
    1,380
    Trophy Points:
    6,092
    Credits:
    1,746
    Ratings:
    +2,209 / 105 / -32
    Here is Anakin Skywalker's actual dialogue from The Rise of Skywalker's climax (emphasis mine):
    Bring back the balance, Rey, as I did.

    You can't implore someone to bring balance back if balance was never achieved in the first place.

    Palpatine returning therefore had zero effect on the ending of Return of the Jedi or Anakin being the prophecied Chosen One, because the prophecy had already been fulfilled.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  5. Kraven Head

    Kraven Head Rebelscum

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2018
    Posts:
    245
    Likes Received:
    326
    Trophy Points:
    1,877
    Credits:
    920
    Ratings:
    +539 / 16 / -5
    That was a lazy way to explain the balance, or lack there of.

    A bit of imagination would have went a long way to filling the plot hole.
    --- Double Post Merged, Sep 21, 2020, Original Post Date: Sep 21, 2020 ---
    Havent heard this.. source?
     
    • Like Like x 2
  6. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Rebel Official

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2019
    Posts:
    881
    Likes Received:
    1,380
    Trophy Points:
    6,092
    Credits:
    1,746
    Ratings:
    +2,209 / 105 / -32
    That's a matter of opinion.

    What isn't a matter of opinion is that Anakin's dialogue unequivocally renders any argument about the Sequel Trilogy 'undoing' the ending of Return of the Jedi moot because there is no argument.

    Anakin fulfilled the prophecy at the end of Return of the Jedi regardless of the fact that Palpatine returned. Period. Full stop. End of story.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  7. Kraven Head

    Kraven Head Rebelscum

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2018
    Posts:
    245
    Likes Received:
    326
    Trophy Points:
    1,877
    Credits:
    920
    Ratings:
    +539 / 16 / -5
    See post 243.

    A millennia long prophecy once fullfed only lasting 10 years.... big let down IMO.

    "You were the Chosen One! You were supposed to destroy the Sith, not join them. You were supposed to bring balance to the force, not leave it in darkness.'

    Destroy (noun): put an end to the existence of (something) by damaging or attacking it.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  8. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2015
    Posts:
    2,160
    Likes Received:
    6,601
    Trophy Points:
    16,467
    Credits:
    8,697
    Ratings:
    +9,540 / 39 / -14
    Quite.
    "Bring back the balance, Rey, as I did."

    @Kraven Head
    Let's walk through this.

    Firstly, who would even bother writing anything that ends with an infinite and unchanging state where you're no longer allowed to do something, like bring back Sith or whatever?

    That's just creative suicide.
    It makes far more sense, from a writer's perspective, to create prophecies as fluctuating things that satisfy some momentary state...like...well...almost all prophecies in literature.

    But let's actually take a look at this whole prophecy bit.

    PART 1 - BUYING INTO THE PROPHECY WHOLESALE

    The position that Star Wars has taken regarding the in-world logic of the prophecy is effectively as follows:

    Though there was some debate that Anakin Skywalker's son, Luke Skywalker, was actually the Chosen One since he caused his father to destroy Darth Sidious, the debate was settled when George Lucas himself confirmed in an interview that Anakin, even after becoming Darth Vader, was still officially the Chosen One and not Luke.[4] Darth Vader: Sith Lord, a canon reference title, also states explicitly that "Anakin had fulfilled the destiny of the Chosen One".[39] The reference book Star Wars: The Last Jedi: The Visual Dictionary furthermore clarifies that the Chosen One prophecy just foretold the destruction of the Sith, but not of the dark side of the Force itself, explaining the continued existence of dark side users such as Kylo Ren and Snoke.[29]

    With the release of the 2019 film Star Wars: Episode IX The Rise of Skywalker and the revelation that Darth Sidious returned from the dead, some fans question whether or not Anakin Skywalker did fulfill the Chosen One prophecy and brought balance to the Force or if the prophecy referred to Rey.[40] While the prophecy predicted the end of the Sith but not of the dark side of the Force,[29] Sidious' return demonstrates that the Sith Order wasn't technically destroyed until Rey kills Sidious with the help of all past Jedi, finally settling the ancient conflict of the Jedi and the Sith. However, in the film, Sidious did confirm his death and the Sith's destruction at Anakin's hands as he wanted the Sith to be reborn. Later, Anakin's spirit himself told Rey that he had already brought balance to the Force before and ultimately, Rey prevented the Sith's rebirth to keep the Force balanced.[37]

    From an in-universe perspective, it can be said that Anakin Skywalker did bring balance to the Force for a while and then Rey restored it. In the 2017 film Star Wars: Episode VIII The Last Jedi, Luke Skywalker notes that there was a balance in the Force for many years until Ben Solo fell to the dark side.[33] On the other hand, it's indeed stated in The Rise of Skywalker that Anakin brought balance to the Force at least for a time, as he does ask Rey to bring back the balance like he once did.[37] According to Chris Terrio, in George Lucas' words, the balance of the Force means that the dark and the light sides of the Force exist together,[42] although Lucas himself said to writers of the Star Wars: The Clone Wars TV series that to go to the dark side, an inherent element of individuals that must be overcome through discipline, was to imbalance the Force.[43] Nevertheless, Terrio stated that Rey has achieved a balance for the current moment,[42] and J.J. Abrams affirmed this to be the case in the feature-length documentary The Skywalker Legacy, clarifying that the balance in the Force is never permanent and has to be restored from time to time.[44]


    However, some don't recognize the validity of wookipedia, even though the citations which create the compilation of their information can be followed.
    But just to cover all bases here...here's more official words on the subject.

    Here's Pablo from Lucasfilm.

    "Snoke is powerful in the dark side of the Force, but he is no Sith. That thousand-year lineage stretching from Darth Bane to the last Sith Lord, Darth Vader, was undone when Vader died destroying his mentor, Darth Sidious. The fulfillment of an ancient prophecy foretold the end of the Sith, but it never predicted the end of darkness." - Pablo Hidalgo
    But good old Palpsy came back, right? So the Sith came back right?
    No.
    1)
    "I have died before"
    -Palpatine​
    2)
    "The ritual begins.
    She will strike me down.... and pledge herself as a Sith.
    She will draw her weapon.
    She will come to me.
    She will take her revenge.
    And with a stroke of her saber.... the Sith are reborn!
    The Jedi are dead!
    Do it! Make the sacrifice!"
    - Palpatine
    1) Palpsy did die. 2) As we can see from "REBORN", the Sith were destroyed.

    So for anyone who gets all up in arms over Sith stuff, there you go. Palpsy was dead, and the Sith weren't back...yet.
    Palps was trying to bring the Sith order back, but had not yet done so.


    PART 2 - BUT DO WE EVEN NEED TO CARE ABOUT ALL THAT?

    But hang on, let's back up....

    What DOES the prophecy actually say?

    "A Chosen One shall come, born of no father, and through him will ultimate balance in the Force be restored."
    -Claudia Gray, Master and Apprentice, September 2019, Canon.
    That's it. That's all of it.
    Woo!

    Nothing about Sith at all. Nothing about good, bad, nothing. Just that there would be "ultimate balance in the Force".

    We might argue that "ultimate" means permanent, but it doesn't have that exclusive of a meaning at all. Ultimate also predominantly means, "The best most extreme of its kind." and "basic, fundamental".

    Pulling off the ultimate balance on a surfboard doesn't mean you'll never fall over again. It just means you nailed perfect balance at that moment.

    Meaning, the prophecy really just says there will be balance.
    It doesn't definitively say there won't ever be a need to balance anything ever again.


    PART 3 - THE NARRATIVE PURPOSE OF THE PROPHECY DOESN'T CARE HOW REAL IT IS

    But, to me, ALL OF THIS misses the real value and purpose of the prophecy.

    The most important thing about the prophecy has nothing to do with the prophecy.
    The most important part about the prophecy is how Anakin and Luke react to it - each in their own way.

    Luke didn't react to the prophecy, right?
    Correct, but...he actually does when you look at what the prophecy IS as a narrative device.

    Anakin and Luke both reacted to an INHERITED DEBT OF OBLIGATION.
    Anakin's was a prophecy.
    Luke's was both legacy and being the only hope remaining.

    But they both had to wrestle with the INHERITED DEBT OF OBLIGATION.
    And THAT was the value of the prophecy to the narrative. Nothing more.

    What does the Sith coming back mean for Anakin's character arc? Nothing. He's already gone. His character arc as a story motivated by narrative elements is not remotely touched by a narrative element that comes after his character is dead. He's long gone. Whatever anyone does with the prophecy will not motivate Anakin's arc further along some narrative path. He's done.

    So the prophecy's narrative role isn't to checkmate the Sith. Stories are about characters - not plots. And the motivation of the prophecy that it brings to the story is that it pushes down upon Anakin and makes him stress over his perceived obligations to do this great feat and be this legendary hero of prophecy.
    And he must deal with that, while at the SAME TIME repeatedly be told that he's not good enough to be accepted as an equal among the Jedi council.

    THAT is the role of the prophecy.

    Inherited debt of obligation.

    EVERY TRILOGY OF THE SAGA centers around this fundamental theme as the primary driving force for the main characters.
    Anakin, Luke, Kylo/Ben, Rey.
    All four of them struggle with an INHERITED DEBT OF OBLIGATION.

    Anakin must wrestle with knowingly being prophesied while being rejected as an equal.
    Luke must wrestle with knowingly being overshadowed by a great legacy and sense of inherited duty.
    Kylo must wrestle with knowingly being overshadowed by a great legacy while denying his since of inherited duty.
    Rey must wrestle with NOT knowing her inherited debt of obligation, but wanting one, and THEN finding out that her inheritance is pure evil while she wants to be good.

    Every main character explores a different facet of the theme of INHERITED DEBT OF OBLIGATION.

    Getting lost in the pedantry of the prophecy is just missing the forest for the trees.

    Cheers,
    Jayson


    P.S.
    Pablo's twitter (which is exclusive, but you can get a rundown of it from here)
    https://www.starwarsnewsnet.com/201...e-lucass-influence-on-the-sequel-trilogy.html
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Great Post Great Post x 1
    • Wise Wise x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  9. TK-1204

    TK-1204 Imperial Special Forces
    1030th General **** (Mod)

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2014
    Posts:
    905
    Likes Received:
    17,138
    Trophy Points:
    146,817
    Credits:
    15,064
    Ratings:
    +18,163 / 2 / -0
    Friendly reminder to keep things civil in here, as per the Rules & Regs:
    If you're going to respond to someone, address the post and not the person. Moreover, please respect the opinions of others, even if you don't agree with it. At the end of the day this is a discussion about Star Wars.

    Carry on.
     
    • Like Like x 6
    • Great Post Great Post x 2
    • Wise Wise x 1
  10. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2016
    Posts:
    2,769
    Likes Received:
    6,966
    Trophy Points:
    87,467
    Credits:
    6,862
    Ratings:
    +10,330 / 40 / -11
    PALPATINE: “…all the Sith live in me…”

    Kind of hard to misinterpret that line. The Sith, we can deduce, have been alive and well since the events of ROTJ. Palpatine evidently only experienced a physical death. Not a spiritual one. So, not a true death at all since the Sith are now defined as a transitive state and material bodies are disposable.
    If you had read that novel, you’d know that there are actually multiple prophecies. Several deal with the potential fate of the ‘chosen one’. The story only focuses on that one explicitly with regard to Qui-Gon’s interest as relevant to that narrative.
    At its most practical, the prophecy is nothing more than a contrivance that bookends George’s hexalogy. The story begins with the discovery of the chosen one and the pronouncement of what he’s chosen to do. It ends with him fulfilling it. Like the ‘rule of two’ or adding demonstrative celebrations to the SE, it’s a reinforcement to the finality of ROTJ.
    In theory, I guess. But that’s not actual text in those films. Until Obi-Wan shouts it at him at the end of ROTS, we have no indication Anakin has ever even heard of the chosen one prophecy, let alone what sort of burden that might have laid on him. We know he holds himself to a lofty standard that he feels he’s falling short of. But that’s never expressed for him in terms of the prophecy.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Great Post Great Post x 2
    • Wise Wise x 1
  11. Kraven Head

    Kraven Head Rebelscum

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2018
    Posts:
    245
    Likes Received:
    326
    Trophy Points:
    1,877
    Credits:
    920
    Ratings:
    +539 / 16 / -5
    Thank you. Pretty much sums it up.
    I stand by my position its was a plot hole. Some agree, some don't.... but the sun will still rise tomorrow. (emperor)
     
    • Like Like x 1
  12. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2016
    Posts:
    2,769
    Likes Received:
    6,966
    Trophy Points:
    87,467
    Credits:
    6,862
    Ratings:
    +10,330 / 40 / -11
    I wouldn't call it a "plot hole". The plot works fine. It just discredits the veracity of these prophecies. ROTS itself questions that, "a prophecy that misread could have been."
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Wise Wise x 2
  13. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2015
    Posts:
    2,160
    Likes Received:
    6,601
    Trophy Points:
    16,467
    Credits:
    8,697
    Ratings:
    +9,540 / 39 / -14
    You can take that line to mean that the Sith are back in town, but then you have to explain why the writers bothered to have Palpatine point out that the Sith needed to be reborn, which would mean that they are not yet back in town.

    According to one of our previous conversations, his decrepit body would mean that he's not really back in one of the interpretations of that discussion.
    So, if he's not really back, then one can argue, is the Sith really back?

    As to "since ROTJ". Palps is the Sith component here, and he openly pointed out that he was dead. It's not clear when he was brought back to life in his seemingly temporal condition.

    You're right. I didn't read that. I read reports on it. I rarely read Star Wars novels. No, scratch that. I never do. Counting the ones I read when I was in high school at this point hardly counts.

    Do any of them change anything about what I wrote in PART 2?

    You can read them however you want, I suppose, but character motivation is a normal and regular part of story telling, and you don't put things in stories for just any old reason that has nothing to do with driving characters.

    I don't feel like debating this one, because - I'm sorry - this one is fairly straight forward and blatant.
    The role of the prophecy was to press a weight upon Anakin; to make him feel obligated to some greater task, which is then contrasted against by repeatedly not being accepted as he expects to be by his cultural clansmen.

    Lucas didn't write the prophecy concept out, and make Anakin this mythical no-father birth so that everyone could argue about when the Sith come back in town, and whether or not the prophecy is invalidated by any contrived thought of some fashion or another.

    As you mention, it also could be that the prophecy is full of crap.

    However, several of the creators of Star Wars have said that's not the case repeatedly - why they give a d*** I will never know, as quite honestly I would have never bothered to answer such a bulls*** question. Who cares if it's real or not.

    The only thing that matters is how Anakin's story goes while it's Anakin's story.
    And that means what matters is how Anakin reacts to his issues - one of them being this giant obligation, like Neo, like Jesus.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
    • Great Post Great Post x 2
    • Like Like x 1
    • Clouded Clouded x 1
  14. Kraven Head

    Kraven Head Rebelscum

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2018
    Posts:
    245
    Likes Received:
    326
    Trophy Points:
    1,877
    Credits:
    920
    Ratings:
    +539 / 16 / -5
    Always hated that line. (emperor)

    Am certain that *IF* Lucas intended on ever doing a ST that he had Anakin Skywalker as a central character.
     
  15. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2015
    Posts:
    2,160
    Likes Received:
    6,601
    Trophy Points:
    16,467
    Credits:
    8,697
    Ratings:
    +9,540 / 39 / -14
    We know that is not true because we know what Lucas intended to basically do as his ST, and Anakin was not a central character of it.

    https://mashable.com/2018/06/13/lucas-sequel-star-wars-plan/
    https://collider.com/george-lucas-star-wars-plans/

    It was centered around Luke, not Anakin, and about the microbiotic aspects of the Force and the Whills, and how they used Midichlorians as communication conduits of sorts to use Force attuned people as a sort of cosmic vehicle, piloting them around toward a cosmic end goal.

    To quote Lucas himself.
    "...A lot of fans would have hated it, just like they did Phantom Menace and everything..."


    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
    • Like Like x 1
  16. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2016
    Posts:
    2,769
    Likes Received:
    6,966
    Trophy Points:
    87,467
    Credits:
    6,862
    Ratings:
    +10,330 / 40 / -11
    “Kill me and my spirit will pass into you. As all the Sith live in me. You will be Empress. We will be one.”

    Maybe I’m way off on an island of my own, having a psychotic spat with a sassy volley ball, but I took that line to mean: I’m about to do to you what was done to me. What all Sith have been doing to each other for the last thousand or so years - body swap. Same cream filling, different candy shell. I’m curious to know what your take was?

    That then, is how Palps ‘survived’ the Deathstar incident. He ‘passed his spirit’ into a new body. An unfortunately inferior body. So, he’s looking to upgrade. Enter: Rey. He’ll pass into her, continue the cycle of rebirth (like a snake shedding its skin), and Bob’s your uncle.

    So, no, Anakin didn’t “destroy the Sith”. He just destroyed their house. Which is super inconvenient to be sure. You have to fill out those change of address forms, and notify your creditors, and get a new driver’s license - ugh, what a nightmare! A fate worse than death, but no, not an actual death. Palps crashed his car and has been tooling around in a crappy rental ever since, waiting to trade up. That’s how I see it anyhow.
    The only interpretation I ever had in that conversation was that Palps, in the state we found him, was stuck in a defective body and desperately wanted out. “The Spirit is Willing, but The Flesh is Spongy and Bruised.” :D
    Whether it was right at the moment he was falling down that shaft (it is in the novelization, but novelizations can suck it) or that same afternoon he made his weird ‘dead speak’ address, it doesn’t matter. “Sidious” isn’t some cackling freak job in a stinky robe, he’s the ‘spirit of the Sith’. That never died. It just relocated.
    What you seem to be saying in that section is that ‘the prophecy’ doesn’t mention anything about the Sith. So their non-destruction wouldn’t be a contradiction. If it only speaks of balance, and there was balance, then what’s the problem? My clarification is that there is no ‘THE prophecy’. The one mentioned is one of many. So when Obi-Wan asks “Is he not to destroy the Sith?” and Mace responds “So the prophecy says”, they aren’t improvising. There really is a prophecy that they’re quoting. Anakin really was supposed to do that.

    This is where we get into the bonkers realm of ‘creator intent’ and ‘death of the author’. What did George originally intend and . . . well, does that even really matter anymore? It would seem that the author’s intent, at least at the time, was that destroying the Sith was a key component of Anakin fulfilling his destiny and, with it, resolving his character’s journey. So, to deviate from that, to contradict it, would be to contradict the author’s intent and the character’s resolution. But George didn’t right this trilogy. It’s not his story anymore. And since the OT never really hung a lantern on that resolution being definitive, then the plot itself is never actually undermined.

    It’s a pickle and way more of a headache than it’s worth to bother with for me. I personally never liked the prophecy angle anyhow. The ‘chosen one’ trope is usually just a shortcut used to make a protagonist interesting without having to do the actual work of making them interesting.
    Accept we never actually have Anakin confront that obligation. Not in any direct manner. Neo, we know, was told of his impending import and we watched him have to reconcile. Jesus, we know, was told of his impending import and we watched him have to reconcile. Anakin . . . maybe was? We don’t really know. It’s never genuinely foregrounded. Can you really say, with absolute impunity, that Anakin knew he was the chosen one and that he was tasked with ‘restoring balance’? He never mentions it directly or indirectly to anyone and it’s never mentioned to him directly or indirectly by anyone.

    I get what you’re saying, and it’s a perfectly valid read, but it’s something that’s not actually there in the movies. We get statements like this “I'm a Jedi. I know I'm better than this” and “I'm not the Jedi I should be. I want more. And I know I shouldn't”, but never with respect to some grander destiny he’s trying to live up to. Only ever with regard to his expectations as a member of a religious order. Not some savior figure.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  17. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2015
    Posts:
    2,160
    Likes Received:
    6,601
    Trophy Points:
    16,467
    Credits:
    8,697
    Ratings:
    +9,540 / 39 / -14
    I have very low interest in the pedantry of the fulfillment of the prophecy, and always have because the prophecy is probably one of the least things I have ever cared about in all of Star Wars. It's completely irrelevant to the stories' character arcs, the stories' metaphors, allegories, or themes.

    The midichlorians have more symbolic meaning that the terms of the prophecy's fulfillment or not.

    And we could sit here and debate over Palpsy's words and their meanings, but in regards to whether the prophecy was fulfilled or not, the film is very clear about whether Anakin thinks he fulfilled the prophecy or not.

    "Bring back the balance, Rey, as I did."

    And since Anakin is one with the Force, it can be argued that the Force (or Whills, whatever) thinks so as well.

    Either way, the position the film takes is really all that matters, and the film clearly thinks Anakin fulfilled the prophecy.
    The creators have also commented on this. Saying that balance is fluid and not static, and that Anakin did fulfill the prophecy and bring about balance.

    "We were moved by the idea that the person who should have to fight to regain the balance that Anakin Skywalker gained...The balance of the Force always, as George Lucas has said, means that the Dark and the Light exist. There are corners everywhere in the galaxy where the Dark still exists, except that with the rise of Palpatine and the Original Trilogy, I think the way George would describe it is that the Dark had become too powerful to the point where the Light had almost disappeared. So in winning this victory against the First Order and the remnants of the Empire and the Sith loyalists, I think that the balance is restored, because the Dark had been growing much, much more powerful than the Light. By Rey striking this blow, it doesn’t mean that everything is happily ever after forever, but it means that at least for this moment in time, the Dark has been held off as the Light has pushed back."
    - Terrio​

    "This whole trilogy — this VII, VIII, and IX — is really about the generation that sort of follows the great generation and the idea of balance, bringing balance to The Force. Which is the whole point of the Chosen One Anakin in the original trilogy. What I love was the idea that balance brought to The Force doesn’t mean it’s forever. It’s not immediately everlasting. And I think the idea that if we are not careful, the ultimate evil will rise again. That we have to be proactive in doing what we can to maintain the balance, and how does the generation that follows the great generation do that."
    - Abrams​

    In citing Palpsy, I was just adding further information to the comments. If Palpsy's words aren't convincing, then fine - go with Anakin's words, and go with Abrams and Terrio's words, or any of the other material in that PART 1 that I presented.

    I get it in the movies perfectly fine.
    Nope, he never jumps out and says, "BUT I'M THE CHOSEN ONE AND I WANT TO GET SOME POWER CONVERTERRRS!" :p

    While Anakin never just runs around talking about it on the nose, Qui-Gon says it right in front of him.
    "He is the chosen one, you must see it."

    He doesn't have to have visions of a super savior to have it exist as a motivator upon him.
    He is the chosen one, everyone constantly continues to push quite heavily upon him because the extra attention and scrutiny is a constant irritation of injustice and unfairness to him, and he has to deal with that. He has to cope with everyone constantly putting all this extra attention upon him and having high scrutiny on him - especially the council.


    That said, he actually does have a superiority complex rooted in being well aware of his special capabilities, and has a savior's complex.
    "...although I'm a Padawan learner, in some ways... a lot of ways... I'm ahead of him. (Obi-Wan)"

    And he expects himself to be able to control extreme powers of the universe, and ambitions to do so in the future.

    Anakin
    Why'd she have to die? Why couldn't I save her? I know I could have!

    Padme
    Sometimes there are things no one can fix. You're not all powerful, Ani

    Anakin
    Well I should be! Someday I will be! I will be the most powerful Jedi ever! I promise you. I will even learn to stop people from dying!

    Padme
    Anakin

    Anakin
    It's all Obi-Wan's fault. He's jealous! He's holding me back!
    etc...

    But really - this isn't the main point. His direct expression of wanting to do supersavior things doesn't tell us whether or not the prophecy is a motivator for his character's arc.
    What tells us that is Anakin's repeated reaction to the rest of the Jedi and their scrutiny of him, and special attention toward him, because he is seen as the Chosen One.

    That is his Inherited Debt of Obligation.

    He repeatedly talks about his Jedi obligations and what's expected of him, and he repeatedly sees his superiors as jealous, inferior, and unfair.

    It is disconnected pedantry to attempt to hold that these challenges weren't part of the prophecy being a motivating factor for Anakin's arc as an obstacle which he had to react to and cope with for his story, because the only reason other characters treat Anakin with any specialness and extra attention, which he clearly feels, is because of the prophecy.
    A prophecy he is clearly aware of regarding him. And clearly his opinion of himself is extremely high in regards to the level of power and control he expects, and demands of himself.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
    #257 Jayson, Sep 22, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2020
    • Like Like x 1
    • Original Original x 1
  18. Kraven Head

    Kraven Head Rebelscum

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2018
    Posts:
    245
    Likes Received:
    326
    Trophy Points:
    1,877
    Credits:
    920
    Ratings:
    +539 / 16 / -5
    And replacing Sebastian Shaw w/ HC at the end of ROTJ was just for fun..... You said it yourself GL changed his mind quite often besides he's been quoted for years saying no more after EPIII was done. He was likely getting covering his bases in case he changed his mind and HC would still be an ideal age to play the character 10-15 years later...

    Cheers, KH

    Mod edit: Stick to the discussion at hand, discuss the points made in a post not the person who posted it.
     
    #258 Kraven Head, Sep 22, 2020
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 22, 2020
  19. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2015
    Posts:
    2,160
    Likes Received:
    6,601
    Trophy Points:
    16,467
    Credits:
    8,697
    Ratings:
    +9,540 / 39 / -14
    I'm not following you around. You happen to have replied to a thread (threads? I don't keep track) that I have subscriptions to because I use my alerts to stay up on topics that I'm interested in.

    If you go wander off into some thread somewhere I don't have any involvement in, I promise that I won't see it, or know about it.

    As to the topic.
    I haven't the faintest idea how the point about Anakin as a Force Ghost in ROTJ has anything to do with whether or not Lucas was in the middle of making the ST about Anakin or not.
    He was not.

    Lucas started working on the ST, he had plans for what he wanted to do. He decided to sell it to Disney, and had assumed they would more or less follow his outlines and ideas. They didn't. They used some of his concepts and outlines, but overall did not go the same route at all.

    However, Lucas was not planning to make the ST about Anakin. We know very well what his outlines were about, and they weren't putting Anakin at the center of it.
    They put Luke, and this new teenage girl, Han and Leia's son, and the microbiotics of the Whills at the center of it.

    That doesn't mean Anakin wouldn't matter. Of course he matters. But he wouldn't be a central character of the ST.


    Also, please don't slop that "real fan" garbage around. That's just uncalled for and rude.
    I've never once been rude to you, or called you any form of a name. I disagree with some of your views on things, but that shouldn't mean that you need to see me as attacking you or calling you names. I am not.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
    #259 Jayson, Sep 22, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2020
    • Like Like x 2
    • Great Post Great Post x 1
    • Cocky Cocky x 1
  20. TK-1204

    TK-1204 Imperial Special Forces
    1030th General **** (Mod)

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2014
    Posts:
    905
    Likes Received:
    17,138
    Trophy Points:
    146,817
    Credits:
    15,064
    Ratings:
    +18,163 / 2 / -0
    Once again I wish to remind everyone to stay on topic and keep the discourse in this thread civil. That means not talking about fellow members in any sort of inflammatory or insulting manner. If you disagree with the opinions of another member, that's fine. Debate is fine. And if at the end you still disagree, then agree to disagree. No Star Wars discussion is worth getting irritable towards others.

    I've already had to remind you guys of this once before. If you have any issues with another member, don't confront them in the thread. Contact a moderator and we will look into it.
     
    • Like Like x 3
    • Great Post Great Post x 2
    • Wise Wise x 1
Loading...

Share This Page