1. Due to the increased amount of spam bots on the forum, we are strengthening our defenses. You may experience a CAPTCHA challenge from time to time.
    Dismiss Notice
  2. Notification emails are working properly again. Please check your email spam folder and if you see any emails from the Cantina there, make sure to mark them as "Not Spam". This will help a lot to whitelist the emails and to stop them going to spam.
    Dismiss Notice
  3. IMPORTANT! To be able to create new threads and rate posts, you need to have at least 30 posts in The Cantina.
    Dismiss Notice
  4. Before posting a new thread, check the list with similar threads that will appear when you start typing the thread's title.
    Dismiss Notice

Does anyone else feel that the new films ruined the ending of ROTJ?

Discussion in 'Original Trilogy' started by VOODOO, Jan 8, 2018.

  1. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2016
    Posts:
    4,282
    Likes Received:
    18,999
    Trophy Points:
    145,167
    Credits:
    17,580
    Ratings:
    +23,311 / 64 / -37
    For them to "ruin" the OT, they'd need to be more than bad, they'd need to ruin the legacy of the story told there.

    Maybe I'm oversimplifying too much, but here's how I could see that happening:


    1) The characters are changed in a way that undoes their development in the OT in an irreversible way.

    2) The story undoes the ending of ROTJ in a way that makes no sense.


    Characters
    So let's start with the first one. I know that plenty of people dislike how OT characters were portrayed in the ST, particularly Luke. Personally, I think Luke's portrayal was fine, and logical. We see snippets of how the optimistic Luke fell to a darker state, and eventually see his redemption. In fact, I almost think it seems more unlikely that the rise of the First Order and an optimistic Luke could exist in tandem- one can't really be there with the other existing, though that's also kinda part of Point 2.

    If there's any complaint I have about the characters in the ST, it's Han. Is it realistic that he and Leia are split up? Maybe. But it feels messy, and a bit too pessimistic. His death could've been done well without that plot point, and nothing would've really changed. You could even imply that Han and Leia were in kind of a dark place after the fall of their son, but they didn't need to be entirely split up.

    But did that ruin the OT for me? Nah.

    Story
    The main things I see here are the Rise of the First Order in general, as well as the "return of the sith" (Debatable).

    First Order- So here's the thing: it's great the Empire fell. I'm a fan of fascist dictatorships getting destroyed, big fan. But unfortunately, it's not often permanent. The Mongols were followed by Napoleon, were followed by the Nazis, were followed by... well, I think we all have our concerns today. The First Order rising from the ashes of the Empire is pretty easy to reason with, especially given how astronomically the Empire was. And yes, they're aesthetically very similar to the Empire, which feels kinda weird- but remember that SW is about deteriorating wars- the Clone Wars was huge, TGCW big, First Order a bit more focused. These factions get their inheritance from who came before, so it makes sense that there are visual similarities -in fact, it makes a lot more sense than in Legends when Old Republic troops resembled the Mandalorian-inspired Kaminoan armor.

    Speaking of our beloved Legends canon, we saw plenty of proto-Empires rise there, so I really don't understand what people are upset about.


    The Prophecy
    I think the degree that you're upset about the ST "ignoring" the prophecy depends on how much you buy into it in the first place. Personally, I'm of the opinion that leaning into a prophecy was just yet another example of how flawed the ROTS Jedi Order was. The prophecy, in my opinion, was fake.

    So, I don't mind seeing the sith return, if that's indeed what happened (and again, it happened in Legends anyway, so...). In fact, I think TLJ makes a point to subtlety debunk the prophecy anyway, in its depiction of how legacy works.

    If you like the prophecy, that's on you. I won't yuck your yum. But I would suggest you at least consider the possibility that it was flawed, if you haven't before.



    So, in my opinion, there were definitely flaws with the ST. I enjoyed parts of it, but a year and a half out from TROS, I can say that it kinda ended on a sour note for me.

    But I never expected a "happily ever after". The galaxy will always be at war (hey, almost like it's an integral part of the series!), and that's a dark truth that seems to mirror our own world. But I don't think that undoes the good the Rebellion and its heroes accomplished in Return of the Jedi.
     
    • Like Like x 4
    • Great Post Great Post x 2
  2. Angelman

    Angelman Servant of the Whills -- Slave to the Muses
    1030th Grand Admiral ***** (Mod)

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2014
    Posts:
    2,568
    Likes Received:
    33,045
    Trophy Points:
    157,967
    Credits:
    17,414
    Ratings:
    +35,946 / 72 / -20
    Greatest sentence I've seen today. I love you <3
     
    • Like Like x 4
    • Funny Funny x 2
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  3. Lukestarbucker

    Lukestarbucker Force Sensitive

    Joined:
    May 30, 2020
    Posts:
    908
    Likes Received:
    4,409
    Trophy Points:
    11,267
    Credits:
    3,241
    Ratings:
    +4,710 / 6 / -3
    You said it so perfectly! I couldn’t agree more. Literally. I do think the ST did undermine the ending of ROTJ. I have watched and rewatched ROTJ over and over again. In fact, I can say that it is my favorite film. The ending with Anakin’s death and the empire falling. The celebration scenes across the galaxy. And top it off, Anakin as a force ghost. Amazing. So when the ST started up again, I kinda felt like the ending of ROTJ, which at first I thought was the true ending of SW, was undermine. HOWEVER, the ST and the way it started out was good like you said. TFA was basically a rewrite of ANH and that played out well. It almost felt like a nod to the OT if you will. And that set up for an excellent trilogy the way ANH did. But like you said, the trilogy kind of went down hill from there in my opinion. So, in a conclusion, like you, i’d say yes and no. And if we are comparing endings, I feel like the OT really had such a great ending that wrapped it and the PT up so well. I kinda liked the ending of ROS as it was emotional and dramatic, but didn’t think it was as good as the ending of ROTJ. Have a good one! Nice chatting with ya :)
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  4. Callisto Arlok

    Callisto Arlok Rebel Commander

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2021
    Posts:
    58
    Likes Received:
    570
    Trophy Points:
    2,762
    Credits:
    631
    Ratings:
    +585 / 0 / -0
    Yeah honestly they should have made Old Republic movie. Ruins the fact that Anakin was the chosen one, not Rey. I wish it had revolved around Kylo making a rebellion against the New Republic? That sounds wrong cause of the whole rebellions are built on hope idea. Idk something like that which just makes more sense and does not take away from the original skywalker saga.
    --- Double Post Merged, May 4, 2021, Original Post Date: May 4, 2021 ---
    I also think they should have planned it better. There was potential with the story and SO much potential with the characters and acting skill, but the plot ruined it. There was some decent humor though.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  5. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2016
    Posts:
    2,245
    Likes Received:
    5,630
    Trophy Points:
    15,317
    Credits:
    5,647
    Ratings:
    +8,487 / 34 / -9
    The most obvious alternative would be a reversal of the original dynamic. Instead of a benevolent rebellion fighting against an evil empire, you have an evil rebellion fighting against a benevolent empire. The New Republic beset by an insurgency inspired by the Empire, using their own guerrilla style tactics against them. An enemy that’s withIN and not withOUT.

    That’s the whole metaphor of the darkside. It’s something inside of us that takes over if you let it. It doesn’t invade from the outside. It was there all along.
    I’m sure the mob of goons that tried to arrest the US capital fancied themselves a “rebellion” too.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Great Post Great Post x 1
  6. Darth Wardawg

    Darth Wardawg Force Sensitive

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2014
    Posts:
    1,241
    Likes Received:
    3,434
    Trophy Points:
    12,667
    Credits:
    4,765
    Ratings:
    +4,403 / 72 / -23
    And I'm there. In my "fannon" the Sequel Trilogy doesn't exist. If others enjoyed it, great. I don't begrudge them that enjoyment. Heck, I wish I could say the same.
     
    • Like Like x 4
  7. Veronica

    Veronica Rebel General

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2020
    Posts:
    315
    Likes Received:
    639
    Trophy Points:
    3,797
    Credits:
    1,115
    Ratings:
    +820 / 30 / -13
    Not a scholar of SW lore, but my understanding of Anakin being the chosen one and bringing balance to the force, was that he destroyed most of the Jedi so that the Jedi and Sith were once again equal in numbers. I don't see Rey as any kind of Messianic or chosen one figure. The force clearly chose her...due to her FS bloodline and her character/heart to re-start the Jedi order. And half of this was only based on her own personal choices to overcome her baggage/trauma she had of being worthless. It was never guaranteed.
     
    #367 Veronica, May 9, 2021
    Last edited: May 9, 2021
    • Like Like x 2
  8. Angelman

    Angelman Servant of the Whills -- Slave to the Muses
    1030th Grand Admiral ***** (Mod)

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2014
    Posts:
    2,568
    Likes Received:
    33,045
    Trophy Points:
    157,967
    Credits:
    17,414
    Ratings:
    +35,946 / 72 / -20
    According to George Lucas' own explainations, Anakin brought balance to the Force by removing the Sith from the equation. It was not a matter of the Jedi & Sith being in a power balance; the Sith were themselves the imbalancing factor within the Force. That said, Lucas has also made it clear that bringing this balance to the Force was not ment to be a final solution to all conflict in the Galaxy, and darkness could still raise again even though it had been prophetically vanquished once.


    ...also, Lucas changes his mind about stuff every other week, so he's not really an authoritive source on Star Wars, ironically.
     
    • Like Like x 4
  9. Veronica

    Veronica Rebel General

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2020
    Posts:
    315
    Likes Received:
    639
    Trophy Points:
    3,797
    Credits:
    1,115
    Ratings:
    +820 / 30 / -13

    Thanks for the clarification. I understand what George is saying about the darkside. But if the PT is anything to go by 'too much light' ie. unmitigated positivity is in itself leads to ruin. It either leads to complacency and naivety. Or it leads to self-righteousness. Both of which can be destructive.

    In a round about way Anakin's wrong actions lead to the burning down of the Jedi, and the seeds for a better and version that will hopefully be built on pragmatism. Just my 2 cents.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Great Post Great Post x 1
  10. Callisto Arlok

    Callisto Arlok Rebel Commander

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2021
    Posts:
    58
    Likes Received:
    570
    Trophy Points:
    2,762
    Credits:
    631
    Ratings:
    +585 / 0 / -0
    i get that but anakin killed palp and he did eventually fulfill his prophecy. palp coming back ruins that fulfillment and thats the part that bothered me.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  11. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett Jedi General

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2015
    Posts:
    471
    Likes Received:
    15,101
    Trophy Points:
    146,442
    Credits:
    5,644
    Ratings:
    +15,380 / 7 / -0
    Legends also ruined ROTJ by having the Sith return a billion times. I think the only way you can get around ruining the ending of the OT is to not make any stories or movies set after
     
    • Like Like x 2
  12. Veronica

    Veronica Rebel General

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2020
    Posts:
    315
    Likes Received:
    639
    Trophy Points:
    3,797
    Credits:
    1,115
    Ratings:
    +820 / 30 / -13
    As a wiser poster than me said. You will never, ever get rid of the Sith. All it takes is disgruntled Jedi with a hunger for power. Something all humans have.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  13. Lord of the Rens

    Lord of the Rens HATES: Clumsy AND Stupid

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2015
    Posts:
    2,027
    Likes Received:
    26,177
    Trophy Points:
    151,117
    Credits:
    14,919
    Ratings:
    +28,975 / 124 / -47
    Sith with the knowledge to cheat death is more fun for me. Imagine Plagueis surviving the PT and spending the next 50 years amassing what was found at Exegol. The table was set for the real Phantom Menace.
     
    • Great Post Great Post x 1
  14. Use the Falchion

    Use the Falchion Jedi Contrarian

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2015
    Posts:
    2,055
    Likes Received:
    8,540
    Trophy Points:
    16,867
    Credits:
    9,579
    Ratings:
    +9,883 / 25 / -10
    I get that, but being a Sith is a philosophy. That was part of the problem I had with it. I didn't have a problem with Snoke or the Knights of Ren or even Dathomir Witches because they aren't Sith. Just like becoming a Jedi requires a certain outlook on life and a type of training, so do does becoming a Sith. If a Dark Side ruler wants to shear the galaxy in half and only rule over half of it, but doesn't believe the Jedi are fit to rule the other half, does that make them a Sith? If a Dark Sider chooses to train more than one apprentice, and doesn't mind Jedi, so long as they stay out of each other's way, does that make them a Sith?
    Paraphrasing Luke, the Jedi don't - or at least shouldn't - have a monopoly on the Light Side of the Force - why should the Sith have one on the Dark Side?

    That was my question anyways, and why I was willing to overlook aspects of the Chosen One prophecy being overturned. Anakin had defeated the Sith and brought balance to the Force. The Force rested, and then woke when something else was going to upset it, but it wasn't Sith. We had turned that page. Or so I thought...
     
    • Like Like x 1
  15. Lord of the Rens

    Lord of the Rens HATES: Clumsy AND Stupid

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2015
    Posts:
    2,027
    Likes Received:
    26,177
    Trophy Points:
    151,117
    Credits:
    14,919
    Ratings:
    +28,975 / 124 / -47
    THIS. The man most concerned that “the Force doesn’t get muddled into a bunch of gobbledygook” is the one who instigated it in the first place.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Funny Funny x 1
  16. Veronica

    Veronica Rebel General

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2020
    Posts:
    315
    Likes Received:
    639
    Trophy Points:
    3,797
    Credits:
    1,115
    Ratings:
    +820 / 30 / -13
    Sorry, I don't quite get your point. But this is what I picked up from Sith Wookiepedia, page:

    https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Sith


    Greed and a hunger for power is something that is inherent in all (human) beings, and therefore they will never be rid of the Sith.
     
    • Like Like x 4
  17. Use the Falchion

    Use the Falchion Jedi Contrarian

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2015
    Posts:
    2,055
    Likes Received:
    8,540
    Trophy Points:
    16,867
    Credits:
    9,579
    Ratings:
    +9,883 / 25 / -10
    Going off your quote, the Sith are a "religious order" too. That's my point. Yes, all humans will struggle with greed and the hunger for power, but that doesn't mean they'll all believe the same things or have the same mind-set.
    A Dark Side User who believes that only they can prevent an upcoming calamity and must gather power to save everyone is going to have a very different mindset and philosophy than someone who says "UNLIMITED POWER" and loves power for power's sake. And defeating the two may require different needs and may be two different stories. The former can absolutely turn into the latter, but if the former doesn't, I wouldn't think they're the same kind of evil.

    Or for a more concrete example, the Witches of Dathomir may have their own power struggles and views of the Dark Side, but they're not Sith. They can be greedy and want power and want to expand their world-view, but they won't be Sith. Using the Sith as a villain is a conscious choice. They're not a "one-size fits all" Dark Side villain, and the fact Star Wars has historically wanted to promote them as such is a crutch that has taken them only so far.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  18. Xeven

    Xeven Rebel Official

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2015
    Posts:
    1,120
    Likes Received:
    1,120
    Trophy Points:
    7,742
    Credits:
    2,909
    Ratings:
    +2,231 / 227 / -109
    Was so many really cool things they could have done with the story such as Darth Plaguies. At least him still being around would not have ruined what Vader did.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  19. Veronica

    Veronica Rebel General

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2020
    Posts:
    315
    Likes Received:
    639
    Trophy Points:
    3,797
    Credits:
    1,115
    Ratings:
    +820 / 30 / -13
    No not everyone will have the same mind set. But some inevitably will. Anyone who wants something bad enough will use whatever tool they have at their disposal.

    That is why I stated that in the context of the SW universe. Anyone FS being who wants something bad enough and will do whatever they want to get it won’t think twice about tapping into the Darkside to help them achieve their goals—altruistic or not. Whether it’s Palpatine in his quest to unite and rule the Galaxy or Dooku’s desire to help the downtrodden.
     
    • Like Like x 4
  20. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2016
    Posts:
    2,245
    Likes Received:
    5,630
    Trophy Points:
    15,317
    Credits:
    5,647
    Ratings:
    +8,487 / 34 / -9
    This all really comes down to the unavoidable nature of continuing a story that already had a conclusion. The premise is that the Force was unbalanced and it was the Sith that had unbalanced it. All of the misery that existed in the galaxy during the reign of the Empire, it was all due to the Sith and their promotion of the darkside. Eliminating them, eliminates their influence and restores balance.

    If you continue the story on from there though, where else do you go without backpedaling that finality? The nature of Star Wars is always about how our nobler tendencies can be overruled by our negativity if we give in to the temptation toward greed. Fear can become terror. Sadness can become despair. Anger can become hatred. Pain can become anguish. That’s what the Sith represent. That deliberate corruption. That’s their function in the story: supreme antagonism.

    If you continue the story passed episode 6, you have to reestablish that struggle between dark and light - a struggle that’s epitomized by Sith and Jedi. The same struggle that exists within ourselves and the society around us. That turmoil, that conflict, that’s the story.

    An “Episode 7”, by it’s very concept, would have to dismantle Anakin’s role. Otherwise it wouldn’t truly be a continuation of the story, but little more than an extended epilogue. 'The prophesized chosen one, Anakin Skywalker, destroyed the Sith and brought balance to the Force and peace to the galaxy . . . . . and then some other stuff happened too. It was also sort of important.'
     
    • Like Like x 3
Loading...

Share This Page