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Does anyone else feel that the new films ruined the ending of ROTJ?

Discussion in 'Original Trilogy' started by VOODOO, Jan 8, 2018.

  1. Use the Falchion

    Use the Falchion Jedi Contrarian

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    But again, it's the training and philosophy aspect that I'm detailing out. Pre-TROS, Snoke was a Dark Sider user who had tremendous power and wanted the same things as Palpatine, but he wasn't a Sith. In Rebels (and later in TCW), Maul was a Dark Side user who wanted to take power from Palpatine and rule his own empire, but he wasn't a Sith. Kylo Ren wanted to rule his own empire after TLJ, but he wasn't a Sith.

    Use of the Dark Side doesn't automatically make one a Sith. Having the same goals as the Sith doesn't automatically make one a Sith. THAT'S the point I'm trying to make. There are multiple religions that come from the Abrahamic tradition that aren't Judaism or Christianity, and we wouldn't classify them as the same. Multiple religions believe in salvation and/or the afterlife, but they're not all Christianity. Likewise, why do all Dark Siders have to be Sith? The temptation can be there, the allure can be there, the desire can be there, but we don't need to label them the same thing. THAT'S the big crux of the issue.

    The Knights of Ren were interesting because they seemed to be a Dark Side group that didn't follow the conventions of the Sith. Snoke was interesting because he seemed to learn the lesson of the Sith and Vader, and was determined NOT to repeat those mistakes with Kylo. Kylo was interesting because while he accomplished what his grandfather couldn't (overthrowing his own master in order to rule an empire), he wanted to destroy any legacy the Sith had as well as the Jedi.

    You want to play the "as long as there is evil in the hearts of man, the Dark Side will exist" card, that's fine! I don't have a problem with that. But let's look at other ways evil can take shape outside of the Sith. They've been beaten. They're done. They're not interesting anymore. Let's find some other cool or creative groups out there.
     
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  2. Lord of the Rens

    Lord of the Rens HATES: Clumsy AND Stupid

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    The circle would be complete. When Palpatine "killed" Damask he was but the learner, assuming that he had become the Master....

    Everything about Snoke, everything that Sidious had on Exegol and did with the First Order.... and the Sith Eternal Cult/ Kyber Torture

    would have been so much richer for me, if it were Plagueis pulling the strings.
     
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  3. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    Well, if Palpatine really is “all the Sith” and Plagueis was a Sith, then technically he was pulling the strings . . . from a certain point of view :)
     
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  4. Lord of the Rens

    Lord of the Rens HATES: Clumsy AND Stupid

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    If that is the case then Sidious doesn't exist, none of them do.... it's all Darth Bane the whole time.
     
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  5. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    Hey, group effort. Everybody gets participation credit.
     
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  6. Meister Yoda

    Meister Yoda Your Little Green Friend
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    But maybe Darth Bane just killed another sith in anger, who suddenly found himself possessing Darth Bane, so he invented the rule of two. But all the credit went to Darth Bane. Probably the name of that unknown Sith was Sidious, who generations later was ready to make himself known and finally get all the credit he earned.
     
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  7. StardustSoldier

    StardustSoldier Force Sensitive

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    That is a very good point. Even though I do feel that they could have still had Episode 7 contain entirely new antagonists. But at the same time, it was a bit of a double bind, in that they'd still want to keep the ST true to it being part of the "Skywalker Saga", and that could have been lost if they deviated too much from the themes of the original movies.
     
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  8. Jedi77-83

    Jedi77-83 Force Sensitive

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    Exactly, Lucas ended THIS story (1-6) with so many definitive things at the end of ROTJ. Now 7,8,9 could have continued the story of Luke, Leia, Han and their kids, but it had to be something completely different. Once they start ripping things from the 1-6 story, they boxed themselves in. I will continue to say that they should have used the plot line for 7,8,9 from the novel 'Bloodline' in that Chancellor Leia is exposed in the Senate as Vader's daughter, and it causes instability in the government. Senators take sides as either you think she is a traitor or not. Luke, Leia and Han kids have to save the government, save the Skywalker/Solo name, and find the mole/villain who exposed this secret.
     
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  9. Martoto

    Martoto Rebel Official

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    I've never felt the need to use this meme until now, but.....

    [​IMG]

    501st post (stormy 3)
     
  10. MandoChip

    MandoChip Hate me later. Work now.
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    Plagueis should've been the big bad, and Anakin should've returned in some form. Y'know, finish with the people who started it all, kinda like Harry Potter.

    What I'd give for a sequel trilogy made by competent people...
     
  11. Martoto

    Martoto Rebel Official

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    Palgueis is just a name dropped one time by Palpatine to illustrate his point of view. He possibly doesn't even exist (unless you consider spin off comics that mention stories about him as proof of his existence in canon). He has as much right to play a role in the sequel trilogy as "Tank". That other character mentioned one time in the saga but never seen.

    So depending on your point of view, and which unrealised characters you voluntarily choose to place importance on, the filmmaker's perceived competence seems to rely on their ability to pre-empt which specific fan service each individual fan would like to receive.

    And making Star Wars more like Harry Potter is very far from what I would call a display of competence.
     
    #391 Martoto, Aug 2, 2021
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2021
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  12. MandoChip

    MandoChip Hate me later. Work now.
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    I'd say most HP movies are well-made, the ST much less so. horses for courses.
     
  13. Martoto

    Martoto Rebel Official

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    I didn't say the HP films weren't well made. But they are HP, they are not Star Wars. And vice versa.

    I say the same thing to people who like to claim that they should have just done "X" like Lord Of The Rings, or like MCU..... and so on, and so on.
     
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  14. MandoChip

    MandoChip Hate me later. Work now.
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    Fair enough, but I was using HP to make a Plagueis/Voldemort comparison, with Harry & Anakin being 'the chosen ones'.

    Maybe the ST could've had a Star Wars equivalent of Horcruxes or similar. Its something I think could've been a great overarching story, in the right hands. I've always loved the Plagueis character since reading the book, it made that ROTS scene one of my favourites.
     
  15. Lord of the Rens

    Lord of the Rens HATES: Clumsy AND Stupid

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    Amen.
     
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  16. SegNerd

    SegNerd Rebel Official

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    It could have been interesting for Plagueis to be the ultimate villain in the ST, but the biggest problem is what this would mean for Rey.

    None of the possibilities really works:
    1. Rey is a Palpatine, and now you bring back both Plagueis and Sidious: Just bringing Palpatine back was already kind of insulting to fans. Bringing both Plagueis and Sidious back… ugh.
    2. Rey is a Palpatine, and now you bring back just Plagueis: Pointless name-dropping. What’s the point of Rey being a Palpatine if she never gets to interact with grampy?
    3. Rey is a descendent of Plagueis: Makes no sense, Plagueis wasn’t human.
    4. Rey is just a nobody: I guess some people like this, but I find it anticlimactic and unsatisfying.
     
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  17. Use the Falchion

    Use the Falchion Jedi Contrarian

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    No argument here.

    I mean, if Palpatine wasn't going to be in the film, I don't think Rey would have been related to him. (Showing to me that JJ and Terrio completely misunderstood why the Vader-Anakin twist worked.****) But we'll get there.
    But let's address this logic, and some possible ways around it.
    One way to make this work is that Rey being a descendent of Palpatine means she has to finish what Palpatine started in his betrayal, but now she needs to consider why and how she does this. Make it more complex than a straight up fight. Make it so that all sides are telling Rey one thing, but she must find her own path.

    In Avatar: The Last Airbender, the titular character Aang is a pacifist. His ultimate enemy is a genocidal maniac called the Fire Lord who will kill him with no hesitation. Throughout his journey Aang struggles with the reality that he may need to break his pacifism and no-killing rule in order to take down the Fire Lord. Aang searches for multiple ways out, seeking wisdom from previous incarnations and helpful allies to no avail. But ultimately, he does find a way to succeed.

    Likewise, with Rey being a Palpatine, a darker part of her bloodline - the Sith in her - is pushing for her to kill Plagueis. In doing so, she can become a Sith worthy of the Empire he's building (or some such nonsense).* Meanwhile, Kylo wants to ally with Rey so that the two can tear down the final Sith monument and start something new. Or maybe he's willing to stay out of the fight and destroy the winner. Meanwhile the Resistance wants both Kylo and Plagueis gone because they're threats to the galaxy, and it is the Jedi's calling to face down the Dark Side and bring peace. All three sides can find victory in the same action, because Rey's methods and intentions are at the heart of the matter. HOWEVER, Rey finds a different way to defeat Plagueis than one first thought of, and she can go on her own way.**

    OR, they could simply go with the idea that Rey being a Palpatine has no impact on the role the Force chose for her.

    I mean, we've seen multiple human-Twi'lek hybrids. Who's to say that Munn couldn't produce viable heirs with humans either? Make it so that Rey isn't the only descendent of Plagueis (maybe the Knights of Ren are all descendants of Plaugeis, with a new canon or related name of Ren?), or that Rey's family was created for a singular purpose - to destroy the Skywalkers.

    Recontextualize everything Rey has done, and show how it has led to the death of all of Plagueis' biggest threats: Han is dead, Luke is a ghost that can no longer pose a physical threat, Kylo has fallen (which is both a good and a bad thing), and Leia is weakened and probably won't live long. Make it a desperate action to redeem Kylo, because Rey's own fate is intertwined with his in a way that neither can truly control. Have Kylo rage at the fact that nobody truly seems to care for him. Han wanted him back in order to sabotage the F.O., Luke wanted him dead in order to save his own reputation, and so on. And then explain these moments as they were to Kylo. Han wanted his son back, and Kylo knows this, but he can't justify his own actions anymore; Luke was filled with shame and failed Kylo, but he hasn't let Kylo walk down that thorny road alone anymore.*** Leia and Rey want Ben back, not for the sake of the galaxy, but because there is good in him.


    I understand both sides of the argument on the Rey Nobody line. It's both disheartening and liberating to me; and of the two options we got, it was certainly the better choice.

    In this case, Rey Nobody doesn't really impact anything with Plagueis, but it could be awesome nonetheless. The easiest way to spin it is that Plagueis was a Powerful Dark, and Rey was the Powerful Light designed to meet it. The second way to spin it is that Rey was actually NOT the original chosen warrior - the Force tried to do this with the Skywalkers three times, but failed each time. Anakin became Vader and died before Plagueis was revealed, Luke was broken by Plagueis, and Kylo fell to the Dark Side just like Vader did. So the Force raised (or rather, Rey's) up someone outside the Skywalker line, and here we are. (There is also subtext about the idea of the Chosen One being inherently male and not being able to do what a woman can, or something like that, but we can ignore it for now.) The point becomes less about who Rey is in terms of her past, but who Rey is in terms of her relationship to the battle of good and evil. Ben said Rey had no place in the story. Now he's wrong in a different way - Rey is there to fix the mistakes of the Skywalkers, but not because she comes from a specific or thematic bloodline, but because she doesn't.

    My Hero Academia played with this idea in a similar way. The main character Izuku Midoriya aka Deku was born quirkless (read: superpowerless) in a world where 98% of the world had quirks of some kind. gifted his power by Japan's #1 hero All Might. Throughout the story, Deku's quirkless origins play a part in his growth. While he develops fast, Deku can't always keep up with his peers in every way because he still considers his newfound power not to be his. However, a reveal in the latest soon-to-be-released volume showed that Deku's past may actually have saved his life. The point is that Deku came from a place of no power, privilage, or lineage, but he still was blessed with an amazing power and chose to make his own imprint on the story he found himself in.

    Rey could have been the same. Rey wouldn't have been a Skywalker, Solo, Kenobi, or Palpatine, but she could have been a Jedi, chosen by the Force to complete a task and fight evil.





    *Well, probably something to do with the Knights of Ren rather than the Sith. I really like the idea that Plagueis and/or Snoke was a Sith, but left that ideology behind in order to build something new. It gets around the Chosen One prophecy while also paying homage to what the Sith have done. Call the movie Reign of Ren.
    **My first two thoughts are either sealing Plagueis in the WBW, as sort of a prison out of time; or bringing back The Father, Son, and Daughter, and having them house Plagueis in a place where, when he wakes up, he won't be able to remember anything.
    ***In this version, Luke would be haunting Kylo. Luke would give Kylo solid Light-Side advice, but Kylo as a Dark Sider wouldn't care for it or appreciate it.
    ****Currently I don't fully blame the two for this, since linking two separate stories is difficult to do at the best of times. Arrow did this with both great success (in Seasons 1, 2, and 5) as well as middling results (Season 3 - which would have been better had they not tried to combine the two and simply alluded to a shared past and then explored that in Season 4) and miserable failure (Season 4). Brandon Sanderson's Stormlight Archive flashback arcs are usually pretty good, but most of the time they're used to explore the character and don't have plot relevance. Book 3, Oathbringer, is the only one that truly ties the past with the present.

    But the Vader-Anakin twist worked because Vader being Anakin was a reversal of everything Luke believed in and knew to be true. Vader was originally just a warning story of who Luke could become. When it's revealed Vader was Anakin, then it's pretty much written in Luke's blood. Vader was the object of Luke's revenge for killing his father, who represented the ideal of who a Jedi were and who Luke could become. Vader being Anakin meant that not only did Luke's mentors lie, but that he'd become a kinslayer (a big deal in mythology). Now Luke can't just kill Vader and call it a day. He needs to think about how to proceed.

    Rey being a Palpatine does nothing like that. Her goals, challenges, obstacles, and allies are all the same. Even Luke being her father would change some of that, because in The Last Jedi, Luke wanted to have nothing to do with her (which would have been a bitter reversal of what Vader wanted in ESB). This wouldn't have changed Luke's antagonism, but it's still an interesting though experiment. Everyone's goals would change a little. Rey could be struggling to balance her desire to know her father with her anger at her abandonment with the needs of the Resistance. Meanwhile Luke would be torn between wanting to know his daughter and forcing her away from the Jedi.
     
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  18. Martoto

    Martoto Rebel Official

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    How does Plagueis being the main bad of the ST mitigate the perceived ruining of Return Of The Jedi exactly?

    Frankly, turning a line of dialogue that's intended purely to dangle a carrot in front of Anakin into the objective of the entire saga, well, kind of ruins the entire saga. And for no other reason than it's some kind of semi-obscure easter egg that some fans like to use to establish the super fan credentials. How that doesn't attract the same, or worse, "just making it up as they go" and fan service criticism that the ST receives is another mystery.
     
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  19. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett Jedi General

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    Yes I do, but I think any film set after ROTJ would. So better to bite that bullet now.
     
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  20. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    One of the underline themes of George’s saga was generational inheritance. How the sins of the past impact the present. How the next generation has to right the wrongs of the previous. The ST did begin by pushing that theme forward. Abstractly, I really love that aspect of it . . . until TROS anyhow.

    TFA didn’t bother to put much of a point on it, but the situation in the galaxy was that the New Republic, wary of conflict, allowed the First Order to grow in prominence - to spread its darkness throughout the galaxy. It could have interceded. It could have combated that evil and prevented that darkness, but gave in to fear and enabled its own destruction. That’s the macro story: the error in judgement and moral shortcomings of the previous generation have to be rectified by the next. That’s the role of the Resistance.

    TLJ really REALLY put a point on mirroring that unspoken galactic scenario. Just like the New Republic, Luke Skywalker also allowed darkness to fester and grow in his nephew/apprentice. He could have interceded. He could have combated that evil and prevented that darkness, but gave in to hubris and enabled his own destruction. That’s the micro story: again, the error in judgement and moral shortcomings of the previous generation have to be rectified by the next. That’s the role of Rey.

    TROS, with its ‘Palpatine All Along’ twist, pretty much tosses that theme straight out. The Emperor “somehow” survived and continued his dastardly deeds in total secrecy. Not because of any sort of error in judgement or moral shortcomings of the previous generation, but in complete independence of them. Palpatine’s resurrection, near as I can tell, wasn’t something Luke or the New Republic or anyone else could have possibly anticipated or prevented. It was just some black magic super science. They have no failure to be redeemed in that regard then. It was completely beyond their control. They’re effectively blameless.

    The zombie Emperor, unknown to everyone else, then proceeds to covertly construct a doomsday weapon capable of erasing the New Republic in one shot while simultaneously building “the largest fleet the galaxy has ever known” capable of subduing the majority of the galaxy all on its own - rendering the First Order, and the New Republic’s tolerance of them, virtually pointless. So the NR was basically doomed regardless of their faulty inaction.

    And, in the end, who is it that redeems and rallies a wayward Ben and a demoralized galaxy? Leia and Lando. Representatives of the previous generation. So much for “we are what they grow beyond.”

    Anyway, I mostly like the ST and feel it does a decent job at continuing on from where George left off. But, man, some wires got seriously crossed there at the end for me.
     
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