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Does anyone else feel that the new films ruined the ending of ROTJ?

Discussion in 'Original Trilogy' started by VOODOO, Jan 8, 2018.

  1. Lord of the Rens

    Lord of the Rens HATES: Clumsy AND Stupid

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    Matt The Radar Technician.jpg
    "Nothing but luv, bro.... everyone has a role here."
     
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  2. Darth Derringer

    Darth Derringer Rebel General

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    OT SW fans just need to follow the lead of long-time Highlander fans when Highlander 2 was released in theatres: Continue to enthusiastically embrace what you love and ignore anything that causes you serious heartburn and pretend it never existed. :) :) :)
     
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  3. SegNerd

    SegNerd Rebel Official

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    “The events of this game are absolutely 100% canonical, unless you didn't like them. In that case, it was all a dream."
    -Crash Bandicoot 4
     
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  4. Lord of the Rens

    Lord of the Rens HATES: Clumsy AND Stupid

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    Holy crap, I forgot about THAT train wreck....


    If Highlander were Superman, then the Sequel was Bizarro.
     
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  5. Messi

    Messi G.O.A.T.

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    Really? I'm glad that I can separe every single movie into a very single story.

    I can watch only TPM, for example, and discard AOTC and ROTS (movies that I dislike). I don't even care for the story of the trilogy. We know what its going to happen anyways...

    I also can watch TFA and TLJ as I single story and ignore TROS (movie that works by its own, but not part of a trilogy).
     
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  6. Darth Derringer

    Darth Derringer Rebel General

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    See how it works!!!! :)
     
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  7. Martoto

    Martoto Rebel Official

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    Well they spent two trilogies on one threat. Spending just one trilogy to set up and vanquish a new and final enemy seems lopsided. And completely arbitrary if you ask me. I don't agree with the argument that knowing Palpatine was dealt with in ROTJ is necessary for that movie not to now be diminished. Particularly when it's just so he can be replaced by a johnny come lately big bad who only lasts one trilogy.
     
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  8. Darth Derringer

    Darth Derringer Rebel General

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    We'd been there and done that. In a galaxy full of exciting, franchise-expanding, possibilities, JJ chose to go with safe and reliable.

    The Marvel 'Phase 4' equivalent to what Star Wars did in the ST would have been for the MCU to dump he whole Kang and the multiverse thing and instead bring back Thanos from the dead.
     
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  9. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    What Abrams decided he wanted to stress the thrust of the next trilogy to be about is the experience of the following generation dealing with the legacy of what came before. The First Order represents the persistence of a hateful ideology surviving and remanifesting. Whatever it decides to call itself, underneath, it’s always the same threat.

    The antagonists of the piece essentially being a rebranded Empire makes sense with that larger theme. Its figurehead epitomizing that same idea makes sense with that larger theme. But they also absolutely could have been a totally unrelated party. So long as their motivations were about exploiting fear and cultivating hate in service of dark side principles, that’s what actually matters. That’s the root of the underline conflict. That’s how it connects.
    I’m kind of split on this. The idea is that evil never really dies. It just changes form. Having the Palpatine character, who personifies ‘evil’ in Star Wars, survive in a transformed state - passing on his ‘spirit’, is a neat idea. It’s literalization of the metaphor. Which is what allegory is all about.

    But I also really like the idea of there being an equally vile antagonist who has only figuratively inherited that spirit. Uncoupling evil from a single corruptive figure. Just as the virtuous ideals of what it means to be a Skywalker transcends base happenstantial bloodline, so too does that specter of wickedness.

    Anyone can become that vessel of malice if they aren’t ever-vigilant. There isn’t one singular cackling ghoul behind everything. The potential for that villainy lives in all of us all the time. It’s a matter of choice - what sort of person do you choose to be.

    It sort of reminds me of what I’ve heard called the ‘California Roll Rule’: “People don't want something truly new, they want the familiar done differently.” The sequel trilogy is pretty much that, in my observation. It isn’t a new take on an established theme. It’s the same take, but with some minor tweaks. Which is better between those approaches is really more about personal preference than anything else, I feel.
     
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  10. Darth Derringer

    Darth Derringer Rebel General

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    TFA is exactly like that -- and while critics pointed out how the film shamelessly mirrored ANH's story beats, it didn't matter. Fans absolutely loved it. It quickly became the biggest blockbuster film of all time.

    But that's where your California Roll Rule comparison ends in my book.
     
  11. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    TFA set the stage for the rest of the trilogy though. For better or worse, the two films that followed it were following the scenario it presented: another Rebellion versus another Empire.
     
  12. Darth Derringer

    Darth Derringer Rebel General

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    I don't recall Master Yoda or Obi-wan's force ghost dismissively tossing away Luke's lightsaber in ESB. ;)
     
  13. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    And I don't recall Vader taking off his mask to show Luke his gorgeously flowing locks in ANH. Not sure I get your point.
     
  14. Lord of the Rens

    Lord of the Rens HATES: Clumsy AND Stupid

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    Ghost Vader with flaming hair; force choking the snot out of Palpatine the undying once & for all, like he's the ghost rider of the light side.... sounds legit.
     
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  15. Sheddai_Lightkeeper

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    The new films did not ruin the end of ROTJ. Let's say we made a play about the devil, and the hero slayed the devil, then the devil appeared in a later scene in Hell, trying to get someone to take over for him. That's what's happened here. The archetype and personification of evil is in Exegol- thrown out of bounds in consciousness, drained off everything sacred and spiritual, nearly a rock strapped to a machine, enthroned on a dead flower. He is dead spiritually, the polar opposite of ascended Jedi force ghosts. He is trapped in matter like an animated corpse, and they are spiritual beings.

    In the final movie, it's up to the people to keep down their inner Darth Sidious, to break the archetypal pattern and keep him from rising again in someone else. Luke really represents the balance in the force, with his green lightsaber-- Love.
     
  16. Darth Derringer

    Darth Derringer Rebel General

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    I'm sorry but if you need a lengthy dissertation to explain why a long-dead villain has returned, that's not the Star Wars George gave us. At its core, Star Wars is cool Saturday movie serial sci-fi action-adventure stories for kids -- and kids-at-heart.
     
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  17. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    Sure . . . . . . . . but it was also purpose-built to operate as a morality play - a fable, based on ancient mythical archetypes, that instills concepts of ethics and principles in its young audience. You can take it at face value or you can delve into its greater significance. That’s up to you.

    Palpatine, the spooky boogeyman, coming back from the dead to continue his reign of terror, isn’t a hard concept for a kid to grasp. It’s a pretty common convention in fantasy fiction. But there is a far deeper seeded psychological origin to that anxiety that this trope appeals to. Nothing wrong with expounding on that, yeah?
     
  18. Martoto

    Martoto Rebel Official

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    I think you are confusing "how" with "why". There doesn't really need to be an explanation for why the devil is still the main villain at the end of a story. Except it seems for those that didn't want it to be.
     
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  19. Darth Derringer

    Darth Derringer Rebel General

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    My point is you've already done 'the devil' so why go there again? In the great-big, fantastical world of Star Wars, why reboot the old villian instead of coming up with an exciting new one? For example in the lead-up to TPM, fans geeks out with excitement over the appearance in the trailer of Darth Maul. Holy Cow, how deliciously evil was he!!! Unfortunately, George killed him off (temporarily) in that film instead of featuring Maul in all of his badassedness in all three of the PT films.
     
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  20. Martoto

    Martoto Rebel Official

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    To illustrate how the devil can't be so easily beaten? And that a deal with him can affect generation after generation?

    You could ask "Why bother trying to impress an audience with some new villain when you've already shown you can just kill the devil without much difficulty?"
     
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