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Does anyone else feel that the new films ruined the ending of ROTJ?

Discussion in 'Original Trilogy' started by VOODOO, Jan 8, 2018.

  1. Jayson

    Jayson Rebel Official

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    No, CGI re-editing "ruined" the ending of ROTJ.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  2. Bluemilk

    Bluemilk Force Sensitive

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    Nope
     
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  3. Ganon136

    Ganon136 Rebel Official
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    Not at all. There is a 30 year gap between, so it hasn't messed anything up since it hasn't fully been covered canonically except for Shattered Empire and some Forces of Destiny shorts really.
     
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  4. Sargon

    Sargon Rebelscum

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    I think one thing all Star Wars fans have to learn is that the series becomes something different than the series you first grew up with. Star Wars The Movie, then it was the Star Wars Trilogy, then you have 3 different updated Special Editions of those films, then it becomes this 6-episode Anakin Skywalker Saga, and now it's whatever it now is. And I'm sure it'll all look a lot different in another twenty years. Eventually I think everyone just forms their own "canon" in a very loose sense in that they concentrate on the movies, characters, etc. they really like, accept a bunch of other stuff only half-heartedly, and ignore everything else.

    And personally, the ending of ROTJ only works in the context of the original trilogy. The original trilogy IMO doesn't really itself work as a successor to the story and tone of Episodes I, II and III. To that end, however, I would say if you can accept that all of a sudden we get one shot of Coruscant during a music montage after not having seen or mentioned it since Revenge of the Sith, then the plot points that TFA doesn't acknowledge--like what the hell the New Republic is even about--are no more problematic (by which I would say, they are problematic, but the overall Star Wars Saga has problematic and inconsistent plotting due to the haphazard nature of its writing).
     
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  5. Darth Wardawg

    Darth Wardawg Rebel Official

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    I know its' been a few months but I couldn't resist. George Lucas is the guy who created the original idea, so he gets a lot of my love. However, he also created Jar Jar freakin Binks, had Anakin say "Yipee!" and destroyed Padme's character in III. Oh, and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skulls. He should be careful about critiquing the "lack of imagination." Those who live in glass houses ought not throw stones. Just sayin.
    --- Double Post Merged, May 28, 2018, Original Post Date: May 28, 2018 ---
    Excellent response. Totally on the money dude. The problems arise because it was never intended to be a multi series of films, no matter what propaganda George tried to peddle throughout the years.
     
  6. CTrent29

    CTrent29 Rebel Official

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    Those are a few reasons why I'm a big fan of George Lucas.
     
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  7. Pobody's Nerfect

    Pobody's Nerfect Force Attuned

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    I get what the original poster is saying. The second Harry Potter book pissed me off because Harry starts right back in the Dursley's custody, getting treated like crap again. That invalidated everything he accomplished in the first book.

    But the ST is different than Harry Potter. First, as many people have already pointed out, thirty years have passed. Only thirty days passed between the first two Harry Potter books. I can accept a lot more change in 30 years than in 30 days.

    Second, President Franklin D. Roosevelt died during World War II, but that didn't mean the United States gave up. Harry Truman became the new President and the war continued. I don't see the defeat of Palpatine as the end of all conflict in the galaxy far, far away. That doesn't mean it's not significant - it just means that without an heir apparent willing to surrender to the Rebellion, the Empire would fight on.

    Third, the Force plays an active role in the story. It's a different role in the OT than in the PT, and different still in the ST, but the Force is at work. In the PT the Force is concerned with ancient prophecies and bloodlines of destiny. In the OT the Force is intent on the redemption of its chosen son. And in the ST the Force gives a big "Screw you!" to the idea of bloodlines and inheritance, and instead embodies itself in a nobody just to start an awakening. As long as the Force feels the galaxy needs its interaction, there will always be more Star Wars stories to tell.
     
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  8. Rellum

    Rellum Clone Commander

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    The original trilogy is it's own entity. I don't really honestly connect the OT to the current movies. The OT is to much part of my youth. There is no way the new movies will ever come close to that. Plus my more cynical older self see's the corporate nature of the new films.

    RO I think is the only one I might connect up to the OT.
     
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  9. Keri Ford

    Keri Ford Clone Trooper

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    Yes I think so. The main problem I have is that the Force Awakens starts with a whole lot of stuff that undermines what went before. The Empire has become the First Order, Han has gone back from Rebellion hero to smuggler his relationship with Leia failed. Luke tried to start a new Jedi academy failed and went to hide. If you are going to have these kind on monumental failures then you need to do them the dignity of telling them as a major tragic story, not have them assumed as having happened even before the action begins. The fall of Luke Luke, Han and Leia could have been the new trilogy. But I suspect that wasn't the outline that Lucas had in mind for the Sequels.

    After seeing The Force Awakens I just thought it was not canon. It hadn't tried to extend the vision of Lucas it just tried to do an updated episode 4. I also didn't appreciate how Rey could learn all those Jedi skills without a Jedi Master, it turned the Jedi Lore into meaningless super powers.
     
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  10. metadude

    metadude Rebelscum

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    But do you also feel that The Empire Strikes Back ruined the ending of A New Hope, and invalidated the rebel victory? Is the medal scene at the end of A New Hope hollow because of Empire?

    Like in Empire?

    Did Empire invalidate the ending of A New Hope and make it feel less important to you?

    Like how Empire and Return were total unnecessary and not essential to A New Hope's story? And made the triumphant ending of A New Hope hollow and nothing? Or did it not? How do you feel about Empire and Return, and why do they work for you (if they do, I presume they do?), why do they not ruin A New Hope's ending?

    One last thing, you say in one moment that the story of Star Wars was told in Episodes 1-6. It was the rise, fall and redemption of Anakin Skywalker and then you turn around and say the sequel films ruined the ending of 1-6. So I have to ask, if the story is about the redemption of Anakin Skywalker, what happened at the end of the story (the end of Return of the Jedi)? Who was standing next to Yoda and Obi-Wan in Luke's vision? How did the sequels ruin that ending? Because that's the story, right? The redemption of Anakin Skywalker?
     
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  11. Sparafucile

    Sparafucile Rebel General

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    Yes and no, mostly no.

    The soldiers who fought in the World Wars didn't leave the battlefield and start to shape their countries accordingly in positions of power. Some eventually got positions of influence, but generally it takes years of experience to become a political leader. So the OT3 were mostly soldiers fighting in a war. Higher ranking officers than the norm, incredible individuals in their own right, but still, essentially just soldiers (Leia would be an exception, but how much pull she lost at the destruction of Alderaan isn't clear).

    Then for the failed relationship of Han and Leia, life happens. Considering they fell in love when their lives literally depended on each other, I can understand that once the mundane set back in, some of that spark would fizzle and they'd have to work to keep that love alive. Add a kid, the pull of duty for Leia, peace time and the mundane for Han, then of course hokey religions setting in and affecting his son, all very personal matters. Worse, all things both Han and Leia would feel helpless to deal with. Frustration, lack of understanding, worry. I see it as similar as to when a couple find out their child has a serious disability, many can't cope and break up. I don't think it's coincidence that the spark is re-ignited (at least somewhat) by the onset of war in TFA. They can now do something, they have purpose. It's them against the world again. I think it likely had Han survived, he and Leia would have reconciled.

    As you stated though, if you consider the ST as canon (which it is), then you can't help but feel their struggles were in vain, or just a patch. I would think it similar to how those who fought in WWI felt when WW2 came along. In essence, you can see a mirroring of that, as the Empire would be similar to Germany under Emperor Wilhelm II while the ST is under Hitler. Coincidentally, the time lapse between both WW is pretty close too. I would have liked to have seen a little sunshine in the OT3's lives after the war against the Empire, but they (creative team, RJ, JJ, KK) chose to make it dark and gloomy instead. Not wrong, just depressing.

    So I guess the question is the same in real life as it is in SW. Does evil ever go away? I don't think so, every generation has to face it, albeit in different incarnations. Some are more successful than others.
     
  12. Keri Ford

    Keri Ford Clone Trooper

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    Not at all, we knew they hadn't defeated the Empire just the Death Star, They had won a battle not the War. We saw Darth Vader spinning out into space we didn't think he was dead, we knew all the Star Destroyers etc were still out there. It is right to celebrate winning a Battle even though you know you will have many more. The Rebels were still a small force against a massive Empire.

    At the end of Return of the Jedi they had won the War, defeated the Empire but at the start of The Force Awakens the First Order is hardly distinguishable from the Empire, what war did they win?
     
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  13. Pobody's Nerfect

    Pobody's Nerfect Force Attuned

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    I hear what you're saying. I didn't like the second Harry Potter book because it started with Harry right back under the Dursley's abusive control, and none of the magical things Harry accomplished in the first book mattered.

    The ST could have gone a different direction and made movies with Mark, Harrison, and Carrie that didn't have them re-do what they'd already done before in the OT. The EU books mostly did, the fanfic books and movies I've come across mostly did, too. Even some of the plot outlines I've read here in the Cantina would have made good movies that weren't a soft reboot of A New Hope.

    Personally I liked the idea of the search for a disillusioned Luke Skywalker. But I wish the heroes had gone to rescue him not because he was the only one who could stand up against the First Order, but because he's a good human being worth saving. Make it a human drama, not another save-the-Universe superhero movie.

    I enjoyed TLJ and TFA but it would be nice if the consequences of the Battle of Endor were more present in the ST.
     
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  14. Darth_Nobunaga

    Darth_Nobunaga Rebel General

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    I wouldn't care that more stories were being told in the aftermath of ROTJ if they weren't essentially fighting the exact same conflict, in the exact same context, in the exact same aesthetic and fashion again. All of the historic revisions and restoration made through the OT to revert things back, to revive the Old Republic, to bring back the Jedi, to free the galaxy from a tyrannical dictatorship, all feel utterly pointless when you realize that every single one of those things is just repeated a few decades later in Han, Luke, and Leia's lifetime. It shatters investment into the stakes and setting because you just know, in the back of your mind, that all the progress and evolution of the world has been yanked back to square one, just because the writers wanted to recreate the OT's conflict and stakes beat-for-beat.

    I hear people try and compare it to the way the EU functioned, where the Empire wasn't really defeated, and the Rebels still had to finish their conflict with them---as if this makes the EU guilty of the exact same lack of creativity. What these people don't realize is that this is only how the EU functioned at the beginning, in the IMMEDIATE aftermath of Endor. Not to mention that the context is treated completely differently: The New Republic is forming and coming together, Han and Leia are growing closer in bond and raising children, the Empire is weakened drastically and consistently treated as underdog radicals (which, as of TLJ, the First Order certainly is not), and Luke is building his Jedi Order. It's a process of restoration, with many of the stories involving Luke and Co. saving a planet or alien race or civilization by stopping someone like Grand Admiral Thrawn and Admiral Daala...accumulating planetary allies and making the New Republic stronger, with the Jedi Order flourishing, all to lead to the brand new the brand new war that rattles the galaxy and casts a dangerous shadow over both New Republic and Imperial Remnant alike: The Yuuzhan Vong Invasion...which functions nothing like the conflict seen in the OT.

    Recreating the exact conflict and recreating the same scenario of a used-future galaxy, where the Jedi have gone extinct, under threat of a galactic Empire, that can only be saved by a group of Rebels, is precisely what undermines the ending of Return of the Jedi, and the OT at large. It's not a new era, with a new conflict, with a new journey. It's the same one.

    No progress has been made. All for the sake of empty nostalgia.
     
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  15. metadude

    metadude Rebelscum

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    Okay I agree. So in that vein, is it right to celebrate winning a war even though you know it may not be the last war ever fought? I'd propose it's "more right" to celebrate the victory of the war since that's where the battles end. Celebrating a battle, who knows if you're going to win the war.

    Well, sure, armies that enter the picture after other armies have exited are generally indistinguishable from the armies that came before. I suppose what distinguishes them from one another is, the leadership? The name? But in the end, it's really all the same. But why does that invalidate the victory ending the previous war? At the end of a war, people celebrate the end of the war. Right? What's the difference in celebrating the victorious outcome of a battle, and the victorious outcome of a war?

    Sports teams celebrate after a victory whether it's a single game or the championship game. Who doesn't celebrate a victory? If a football team wins the championship game, then goes on to miss the playoffs in the next season, I've yet to hear anyone claim the season following the championship game invalidates the victory in the championship game or makes it seem, hollow. A victory is a victory in the moment.
     
    #75 metadude, Jul 2, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2018
  16. eeprom

    eeprom Force Sensitive

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    It seems like there’s two different perspectives being presented here: the literal interpretation of the situation and the essential implication of the situation.

    Do the circumstances of the ST invalidate the ending of ROTJ specifically? In my opinion, no. Logically, something called a >GALACTIC EMPIRE< wouldn’t have been dismantled overnight. The Battle of Endor would have been a mortal wound for the Empire, the beginning of the end, but not the killing blow. George clearly injected a larger degree of finality with the Special Eds, to underscore that this was definitely the end to his story, but certainly the Imperials didn’t just throw their collective hands in the air after this. The war would have waged on in some capacity afterward. So, it was certainly a monumental achievement worth celebrating. Something truly was accomplished there.

    However, what I think the core of what this topic is hitting at is: do the circumstances of the ST invalidate the inherent conflict behind the OT in general. In my opinion, essentially, yes. ‘The Rebel Alliance to Restore the Republic’ didn’t simply have the goal of defeating the Empire because good guys fight bad guys. It was to remove them from power in order to establish a better government that could usher in a new era of freedom. Ultimately, that was the end game, that’s what was aiming to be achieved: The New Republic.

    The crux of this civil war, this revolution against tyranny, was to get everybody to that point. A point we never actually get to see. In classic ‘Etch-A-Sketch’ style, the universe is reset to a position comparable to where the OT began without any real in-narrative explanation for it. The NR is presented as similarly inconsequential as the Senate was in ANH - a mild inconvenience that’s promptly done away with once it’s no longer needed in the story. There’s a new Empire now (for some reason) and a new Rebellion to fight it (for some reason). What exactly was the NR and what was its actual function in that dynamic? It’s not exactly clear and ultimately irrelevant because now it’s gone. It was in the way of the ‘back to basics’ approach taken to this property.

    The added significance to the end of ROTJ is in what presumably happens directly after that: the formation of the NR and the galactic peace it brought. That precise aspect is rendered moot with respect to the direction the ST has decided to take the story. So, in that way, yeah, the ‘spirit’ of that ending is tarnished. But the climactic finale of that particular story itself is still very much intact . . . well . . . for me anyhow :)
     
  17. Darth_Nobunaga

    Darth_Nobunaga Rebel General

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    But that would've required examination of the galaxy's condition and world-building that these writers clearly aren't interested in showing. They'd rather bounce between one fast-paced situation to another...but because the setting and world hasn't been established, there aren't any stakes in the conflict itself. In my opinion, at least.

    Sure, you care about the main characters (the people who like these movies, anyway, I can't stand a single one of them, personally), but the actual war of the ST feels shallow and inconsequential, because you don't know the impact of the last war, or what the stakes of this current one in the grand scheme of things. We're just told to care about the conflict at hand...without being given a substantial reason to.

    I'm just sickened by the fact that they felt the need to drag everything "back to basics." They set the story 30 years later, revived the brand, got the old characters back together, all just to recreate the exact same scenario again. And I don't mean a situation like the OT...I mean the exact Republic-free, Jedi-free, used-future setting and conflict of the OT films.

    It's like, that's the best they could do? Just overwrite the OT by doing it all again? That's the most counterproductive thing you could've done for the Star Wars story in-universe. They could've done anything else...literally ANYTHING else, to push the story forward in new directions. A new threat, a new conflict, a new scenario to divide the galaxy, and really enforce a distinct setting for the story...the potential was boundless.

    That's what REALLY irks me about these films overturning ROTJ. They didn't revive the Empire or bring back the old characters to venture into new narrative or in-universe territory.
     
  18. eeprom

    eeprom Force Sensitive

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    I imagine it’s more a testament to business acumen than creative capacity. It strikes me as a decision driven by fear of failure over any sort of inspiration. Disney spent $4 billion dollars on an IP whose previous outings had garnered mixed receptions. So they thought it best to emulate the state of the brand when it was at its most universally revered. The staggering success of TFA was vindication for that decision I bet.

    An entire generation’s worth of imagination, the most creative minds in the industry, limitless resources at their disposal, and they went with a ‘re-quel’ . . . bummer. I expect they’ve managed a handy return-on-investment at this point though :) Meh, it is what it is.
     
  19. Darth_Nobunaga

    Darth_Nobunaga Rebel General

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    Thing is, they didn't need to play it safe to make their money back. People would've seen it regardless. I have a hard time believing that if they had essentially kickstarted the new Star Wars films in a new era and with a completely unrelated conflict---essentially what Rian's greenlit trilogy is reportedly supposed to be---people still would have shown up in droves to watch it. The brand alone, the promise of a new Star Wars entry in over a decade, would've brought in hordes of paying customer and mountainous hype regardless.

    No. The reason I think they went with the "ape everything from the OT" approach is because they didn't have a plan past Ep. 7, not because they were afraid to take any narrative risks. Disney and Lucasfilm themselves have admitted to this: they wanted these movies out, made as soon as possible, and with a guarantee of profit. That meant that they were going to be shoveled out as profit-satisfiers, not entries building off each other with a purpose to serve in the grander story of previous six films: they wouldn't go anywhere new, or tackle some new conflict or era...that would've meant teetering even an inch off of the established tropes and motifs cemented in the OT, which they didn't think they could afford. And now the films are out, and they've made money---so the shareholders have gotten their short-term goals accomplished. But the story? The universe? The continuity and progression of the franchise? It was compromised severely to make a safe product that would guarantee money.

    And that's where I think I and many others part ways with the people that enjoy the ST: we believe that the originality and creative progression of the in-universe story should never suffer for backstage profit margins.

    For all the hate George Lucas gets for the PT, he didn't make those films under that kind of damaging mindset. Sure, he went overboard in hyping the PT through marketing and merchandising, but he never let financial or corporate meddling come in the way of his vision for the story, at least not the way Disney/LFL have. When he felt that The Phantom Menace wasn't going to be ready by 1997 like he initially wanted, he pushed it back two years. He didn't make a safe, rehash film beat-for-beat of any previous movies just to ensure that the film would have a risk-free gurantee of profit: he made a completely new conflict and story he felt was right and made sense in the in-universe era he was depicting. He made unconventional choices, embraced story beats and character types that weren't in the OT, opted to make the PT as distinct from the prior films as much as possible. And most of all, he had something resembling a plan: yes, it was done in a backwards fashion, with many details scrambled in the final execution, but he had a basic agenda for what purpose each film would serve in the greater scheme of things: the political decline in TPM, Anakin's emotional conflict and the start of the Clone Wars in AOTC, the war-ravaged decline of democracy and rise of the Empire in ROTS---for God's sake, he had a lot of the core story elements in ROTS in basic planning stages back in 1983.

    In other words, despite their many flaws---which even I, as a die-hard fan of them, can certainly acknowledge---they were films made from a place of creativity, with the universe and story as the top priority, not the maximum profit. He was willing to take more risks, even when they didn't work. To give us something new, even if we didn't always like it.

    And I will always take that over vapid, uninspired, financially-obsessed and lazy re-use of old ideas any day of the week.
     
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  20. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

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    I think that's what TLJ effectively did with Luke though.
    They went looking for a super hero, what they found was a broken man.
    Luke's story in TLJ is very much a human drama piece with a space opera paint job.
    --- Double Post Merged, Jul 3, 2018, Original Post Date: Jul 3, 2018 ---
    ww1.png

    The real crime of the Nazis was ruining the world peace we clearly had achieved after fighting the War to End All Wars. /sarcasm.

    If you go 30 years without some globally altering war, you've lived in an incredible time.
    Now imagine 30 years for a GALAXY of war mongers and greedy politicians.
    That's impressive. Especially given the power vacuum that almost always occurs following a rebellion. How did Nazi's rise? After WWI there was a lack of German leadership and identity.
    How did the FO rise? The New Republic refused to see it because it was all over...
     
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