SPECULATION Does Dark Side necessarily mean Sith and vice-versa?

You bring up some great points. However, I still think that the light side-dark side dichotomy is absolutely present in the Force. First it should be noted that the Jedi and the Sith are merely institutions so of course you could have a non-jedi light side user or a non sith dark side user, but I'm I don't think we need to get bogged down in the difference because it's a trivial one.

Anyway, there are two important lines from ANH that I want to point out. The first is when Obi Wan is explaining the force to Luke on the millennium falcon. Luke asks, "So it controls my actions?" and Obi Wan responds "yes but it also obeys your commands." Similarly, Obi Wan's spirit tells Luke "Yes the Force Luke. Let go Luke." From these two lines it's clear that the force isn't merely a power to be used (as you rightfully noted in "Exhibit B"). But what about the dark side? Well I think we can reasonably assume that, as with the light side, using the dark side is both a matter of using the dark side and letting the dark side control you. This is (in my opinion) really interesting. With the light side, the key is harmony with the force. With the dark side, sith use their powers to dominate and enslave others, but at the same time are dominated and enslaved by the dark side. In RotJ Darth Vader more or less says exactly this: "You don't know the power of the dark side. I must obey my master".

I think it's particularly telling that sith take on a new name when they fall to the dark side. It's as if Darth Vader and Anakin are two different people (as Obi Wan put it, "from a certain point of view"). In RotS Anakin surrenders himself to Darth Vader, hence is rapid transformation from dabbling in evil (like when he kills the sand people) to being straight up evil (killing younglings and toppling the republic), as well as is rapid transformation back to good when he sees Luke suffer at the hands of the Emperor in RotJ.

To address your points one by one:

A) I admit I haven't watch TCW, but to me this strongly parallels Luke's time in the cave on Dagobah. Here Luke isn't so much communicating with the Dark Side of the Force as looking at the Dark Side inside himself. Luke isn't seeing a message from the dark side, he's looking at the inner thoughts of the Dark Side so to speak.

B) I more or less agree with your interpretation here. Though I'd note that keeping in the Dark Side adds more explanatory power. The Sith try to use the Dark side as a tool but in doing so they themselves become tools of the dark side.

C and D) I'll combine these two because they both address this prophecy from the prequels. It's worth noting that in the end Anakin does bring balance to the force by killing the emperor. The light side is harmony and balance and the dark side slavery and chaos. Anakin destroys the sith and leaves behind a Jedi committed to harmony and balance (Luke insisting that he won't fight the emperor and throwing aside his lightsaber demonstrate this, in contrast with jedi like Obi Wan and Yoda, who rushed into the clone wars).

E) The Force Ghosts does play into the light side harmony bit. It also underlines how the Sith truly are slaves to the Dark Side. They seek immortality by fighting the natural order of the light side, but ultimately they are abandoned by the Dark Side because the Dark Side has no use for them. The Jedi, being in harmony, become force ghosts, but the Sith, being slaves, are disposable and left to die.
In short, the nature of the Dark Side really adds to the irony of the Sith. They seek to dominate others and end up dominated by the Dark Side, while the Jedi seek harmony and thus achieve oneness with the Force.

 

Both excellent posts, Blue and Obie. Since you covered it so well, I'm not going to try to elaborate on those ideas further. Instead, let me present another point of view.

The Jedi and the Sith see the divide differently. To the Jedi, the difference is compassion vs. selfishness, or good vs. evil. To the Sith, the difference is embracing one's passions vs. denying one's passions.

Personally I choose a middle philosophy. Suppressing emotions may be the Jedi way, yet it's not a healthy way to live. But giving full expression to our passions can hurt others, since we're always more passionate about people than objects. The Jedi were wrong because they gave up part of their humanity - that's the price for denying their emotions. The Sith were wrong because they put no limits on their passions, even when those passions caused pain to others.

Are our passions evil? Undoubtedly some are, but others are not. By that reasoning, Sith are not necessarily evil. We haven't seen a "nice" Sith onscreen, but it's certainly conceivable that a Sith could use his passion to reduce suffering, to ensure justice, and to protect the innocent. Love is a passion, after all.

By that same reasoning, there could be a "bad" Jedi *cough Mace Windu cough*, a Jedi Knight whose rejection of emotion creates a blindness to what's right and wrong, who believes himself judge, jury, and executioner, above the law.

I think we'll see a Force wielder in The Force Awakens. Not someone who uses the Light Side or the Dark Side, but who wields the entire Force, with both passion and compassion. Think of Mother Teresa, and all her passion for compassion, with Force powers beyond anything except what we saw in The Force Unleashed game.

 

@Pobody's Nerfect
Excellent post. However, I don't think that "suppressing emotions" is the right phrase. I'd sooner say the Jedi focus on learning to control their emotions. You might say I'm nit picking, but I think that there is a subtle yet important difference. As I said in my last post, Sith don't merely choose to use the dark side, the dark side also uses them. And when a jedi becomes angry or jealous they make themselves susceptible to the Dark Side. Therefore it is important for Jedi to avoid fear, anger and all those other emotions. This doesn't mean that a Jedi should try to supress their anger, it means they try to avoid letting things anger them. One way Jedi do this is by avoiding attachment. For example, they live an ascetic lifestyle. They don't fear losing their possessions because they have none to lose.

The trouble with Anakin (and potentially any one who starts their training as late as he does) is that he has already formed many of these attachments. Instead of avoiding negative emotions he suppresses them, and this is what leads him astray.

Luke, on the other hand, does learn to let go. In RotJ he realizes after over powering Vader that such actions will lead him to the dark side. So instead he tosses aside his lightsaber and declares, "I am a Jedi. Like my father before me". Rather than confront the emperor (knowing that he can't win) he let's go of his fear and anger, and trusts in his faith and compassion for his father. It's his faith in the good in Vader that defeats the emperor. And it's Vader's passion for his family that ultimately saves him.

@Bluestreaking
Hmmm this TCW story arc is more intriguing than I thought. Rather than talk out of my ass I'll not delve into that. I will say however, that my comparison to Luke and the Cave still seems to hold, albeit more tenuously.

As for (B) I will say that there is certainly evil within the Sith themselves. It's what leads them to the dark side in the first place. But the irony is that their evil nature has led them to slavery, rather than power. The Dark Side certainly doesn't excuse what they do. They get the power they crave, but at the cost of their freedom. They dominate others, but are themselves slaves to the dark side.

 

Luke: Leia! Leia is my sister.
Obi-Wan: Your insight serves you well. Bury your feelings deep down, Luke. They do you credit, but they could be made to serve the Emperor.

That line perfectly expresses the Jedi's problem. Bury your feelings deep down. Don't fall in love. Don't get attached to anyone. Give up anything and everything you fear to lose. Because feelings and attachments and love could be made to serve the Emperor. That's not learning to control one's emotions - that's being told to bury and give up one's emotions. The Jedi Council wouldn't accept young Anakin for training because he was too attached to his mother, and he feared losing her. A sociopathic kid who didn't give a damn would have had no problem joining the Order, but a kid who loved his mother was to much of a risk? I have to disagree with you on that one, Obie. That's not control, it's suppression. And in young Anakin's case, when loving your mom is a strike against you, it's suppression taken to a sick extreme.

No wonder the Dark Side appealed to Anakin. Too bad ROTS didn't explore this more - it would have made Anakin's fall more believable.

The Sith path is to give full license to all emotions, with no control. The Jedi path is to suppress and deny all emotions. Both paths lead to slavery. The Sith, as you pointed out so well, become slaves to the Dark Side. They exercise no control over their passions, so their passions end up controlling them. The Jedi are equally enslaved by their own code. Love is forbidden to a Jedi, and slavery of the heart is more cruel than any slavery of the body I can imagine.

This is why I'm so excited about The Force Awakens. We might finally get to see someone embrace the Force without becoming a slave to one side or another.

 

I always felt that Obi Wan was warning him to bury those feelings so Vader and the Emporer would not find out about Leia, not to just suppress them all the time. He failed in that regard but ultimately it didn't matter.

 

Agreed. But notice the pattern. Yoda and Ben lie to Luke about who his father is because they want Luke to fight their war for them, and suspect Luke won't be thrilled about killing his own father. They hide his sister's identity from him to further their own goals, too. There's really no nice way to say it - the Jedi lied to Luke in order to recruit him to assassinate Darth Vader. It seems truth was less important to them than revenge.

The three most powerful and influential Jedi of all, Yoda, Obi Wan, and Mace, each compromised the Jedi principles to save the Jedi Order, and none of them realized the irony of their actions. Yoda and Obi Wan's by their lies to Luke, but Mace in a different way. Mace declared Palpatine under arrest, and said "The Senate will decide your fate." But two minutes later Mace decides Palpatine is too dangerous, and declares he's going to end it once and for all. Mace makes himself a higher judge than the Senate he supposedly serves. Indeed, he decides the Jedi must move quickly to take control of the Senate so a "peaceful transition" of power can be made. That it's a "peaceful transition" from democracy to Jedi-ocracy seems not to concern him. He still sees himself and the Order as servants of the Senate - as long as the Senate votes the way the Jedi want.

Honestly, the only major Jedi character that didn't seem power hungry was Qui Gonn. Perhaps that's the reason he was never part of the Jedi Council - he didn't want to go along with their quest for greater power. He was focused on the will of the living Force, not the advancement of the Jedi.

The Jedi were good, but blind, too. They never acknowledged their hate, but their hatred of the Sith really motivated almost everything they did in the last five movies. They never questioned their reasons for fighting, they just fought. When viewed that way, it's easy to imagine the Jedi are outcasts in the next movie.

 

@Pobody's Nerfect
When Obi Wan says this he means "keep this thought in the back of your mind". If Luke has that thought on his mind then Vader and/or the emperor will be able to read his thoughts and find out. To me that's an entirely different matter.

More over, Yoda, Obi Wan and Mace Windu all make the same mistake: they have become attached to the Republic and fear losing it. They make the exact same mistake that Anakin makes, and while they don't fall to the dark side, they do lose the Republic because they fell into Palpatine's trap, just like Anakin lost Padme when he turned to the dark side. And this is why Obi Wan and Yoda didn't want Luke to go to Cloud City. Because they knew that Luke was walking into a trap, and feared that Vader would turn him to the dark side.

 

By no means are all beings of Darkness Sith, or are all beings of light Jedi... these are very specific religions with very specific beliefs. And consider, is being Sith even necessarily mean that someone is evil? I have often thought of alternative re-interpretations of the Sith code that could actually be considered positive.

Peace is a lie, there is only passion - Accept the reality or war and suffering, your your emotions are true regardless.
Through passion, I gain strength - Your emotions give you the strength you need in this world.
Through strength, I gain power - This strength will give you what you need to challenge injustices.
Through power, I gain victory - you shall overcome
Through victory, my chains are broken - Freedom is ultimately won because of our emotions.
The Force shall free me - Trust absolutely in the force...

In a wayyou can see parallels in the Sith Code to the redemption of Darth Vader in my opinion.

 

Where does The Inquisitor fall into this? I recently checked out the 3 foot tall figure of him at Toys r Us, and on the packaging he is said to have Force powers. But he is not a Sith, right? Just a Force adept who skews dark side? Someone enlighten me as I enjoy the character design much more than a Muun. (Not enough to sit through the joyless Aladdin in space though.)

 

Give Ezra a break, he isnt as bad as you would think especially in the two most recent repisodes (seriously they give a new and... actually realistic dimension to the character). And its not that hard to understand what the inquisitor is, he is a dark side adept who serves the empire. He is not a Sith, and its not known how many sith beliefs he follows... if any at all.

This is something I am sick of explaining to people, Jedi and Sith are very specific religious belief systems...

Ummm the jedi side equivelent of this would be if they had someone who was trained purely in combat abilities with little to no meditative or contemplative studies, with none of their phylosophies. The Inquisitor is just a tool, he doesn't know dark side traditions, he doesnt follow sith philosophies beyond the idea of the Dark Side.

 

Yeah! This is something I am sick of asking people to explain to me too! But I can't help myself so I do it and then complain about it! Ugh me!

 

Presumably the Inquisitor does know something of the Sith religion - he'd be a fool to sign up for a job without knowing what 'side' he's fighting for. It's to rid the galaxy of Jedi specifically, and Jedi are specifically the arch-enemy of the Sith Lords. Being ordered to kill Force-sensitive youngsters if they can't be turned to the Dark Side is a Sith trope.

Nobody can say for sure until we learn more about the Inquisitor; at present, he seems to be as powerful as Asajj Ventress while she was under Count Dooku. We don't know if Vader supplied the Inquisitors with Sith-centric training but for them to work better together (all eyes in the same direction) then mission parameters would include what the Sith consider progressive and counterproductive.

 

Willy, it makes perfect sense. Orders are like religion. The Force is everywhere. I totally see other and new factions using the Force in some sort of a grey zone.

 

The Sith is/was a race actually. Red skin large humanoid beings. They are thought to be wiped out, but who knows. I don't know how the term SITH became associated with dark force users. I'd like to know tbh.

 

It would be boss to see the Sith race on the big screen.

 

You have no idea how many times I thought that. It would be the ultimate bad guy (or good)

 

Here's some pureblood Sith for anyone who doesn't know.

The only problem with having them in the films would be confusing the crap out of casual moviegoers.
"Wait I thought Vader was a Sith." You know what I mean? THey would have to change their name to Sith'ari and say that's where the Sith originally came from.

 

Yea but dang they look badass