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Does Rey being 'sold for drinking money' make sense...?

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by Darth Chewie, Dec 30, 2017.

  1. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    Petty sure the in-universe rationale is that Kylo was just playing to Rey’s anxieties as a bid to sway her to his side.

    For someone like Rey, who believed her parents were decent people who left for a good reason and would be back one day, her deepest darkest fear would be to find out that they were actually total scumbags that never loved her and are long since dead.

    Whether that’s chiefly true then becomes irrelevant. It’s what Rey was afraid of and so was what Kylo was using as tool to manipulate her . . . . . . . or not . . . either way :)
     
  2. Martoto

    Martoto Force Sensitive

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    He's definitely manipulating Rey. But he also believes that's what he's seen. Partly because he wants to believe whatever suits his agenda.
     
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  3. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    Maybe he does, maybe he doesn’t. Again, it’s irrelevant. It only matters if she believes it. His goal in that scene was to break her - to tear down her resolve and sense of self-worth and position himself as her only advocate. “You have no place in this story. You come from nothing. You're nothing. But not to me."
     
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  4. madcatwoman17

    madcatwoman17 Rebel General

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    Because...he needed her, more than she needed him. It is why he forgave her for scarring him - no mention of that, I notice - why his attitude to her in the interrogation room was the complete opposite of how it was to Poe, why he provided her with a metaphorical 'shoulder to cry on' after the mirror cave,

    Kylo Ren was lonely. He had broken off ties with his family, for reasons that were perfectly logical to him, and he knew that most people in the FO saw him as a freak. Snoke ridiculed him, Hux vied with him for Snoke's 'fatherly' approval - and won - and he had no one. No one at all. He saw in Rey a young woman who was, he believed, like him. Both of them were gifted with a power they hadn't asked for, and which frightened them. Kylo had been sent away at a young age to a man who he thought had tried to kill him. Rey had been abandoned on Jakku.

    Kylo thought he had found his soul mate in Rey. He was desperate for her to stay, to be at his side in creating a new type of galactic government. When she rejected him, it broke his heart. Hence his rage and all that: 'I'll destroy her, I'll destroy all of it.'

    The way he looked at her at the end, when she slammed the door in his face, says it all.
     
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  5. Martoto

    Martoto Force Sensitive

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    I think the extent to which Kylo is willing to fabricate hurtful revelations about her past in order to motivate her is important. There's a major difference between using what you know or believe to be true in order to administer some tough love, and just totally deceiving them with lies.
     
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  6. madcatwoman17

    madcatwoman17 Rebel General

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    At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter whether he was lying or not - plain fact is, Rey's origin was 'retconned' purely to make her a Palpatine in TROS.
    That film spent so much time undoing most of TLJ - and quite a bit of TFA, for that measure - it forgot to either tell a coherent story or give a truly satisfying ending to the Skywalker saga.
     
  7. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    I never suggested that Kylo was fabricating anything. He looked into her mind and he saw what he saw. The question was whether or not he believes what he saw to be true. My position is that it doesn’t really matter. It only matters if Rey believes it to be true. Because its her fear that’s driving this manipulation. Like Anakin believing that Padmé’s life was in peril. Maybe it was true. Maybe it wasn’t. It’s the fear of it being true that mattered.

    In classic darkside tradition, what Kylo is doing is finding his adversary’s darkest fear and exploiting it to his own selfish ends. Rey is afraid of the possibility that her parents never really loved her. That they threw her away like garbage. That she has no value. So that’s the button he’s pushing on. That’s his way in.
     
  8. Martoto

    Martoto Force Sensitive

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    Why wouldn't it be true? What's the precedent for the force showing somebody something that's not true.

    I think it does matter. If he had doubts about what he saw, then telling Rey that it's true is the same as lying. At worst I think he's interpreted what he did see and made a logical conclusion. Albeit a wrong one.
     
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  9. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    Um . . . the movie we’re talking about? “I saw something, too. Because of what I saw, I know when the moment comes, you'll be the one to turn. You'll stand with me. Rey, I saw who your parents are.” He looked into her mind and saw what he saw. He “knew” what he saw to be “true”. It wasn’t. Rey didn’t turn. He saw what he hoped would be true. For Rey’s parents, he saw what she feared would be true.
    It’s certainly purposeful manipulation. Lying implies he knows the actual truth and is intentionally telling her something false. What I’m saying is that Kylo wouldn’t know or care enough to doubt it. It’s Rey’s fear of it being true that he cares about. That thought is in HER. That fear is in HER. Not him. He didn’t make that up. That fear is what’s true. That’s what he believes in. That’s what he’s preying on.
    If that works better for you, then go with it. I see it as just another selfish darkside manipulation - promoting their adversary’s fear and positioning themselves as the only acceptable solution. Something something something, poetry, and all that.
     
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