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Does Rogue One match up to The Force Awakens?

Discussion in 'Rogue One' started by Ammianus Marcellinus, Apr 30, 2017.

  1. Ammianus Marcellinus

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    When really smart people think:



    Now you will think.
     
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  2. Pawek_13

    Pawek_13 Jedi General

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    Hey, I wanted to post it first! :p

    A nice, insightful critique of good but flawed films.
     
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  3. Ammianus Marcellinus

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    Every film has flaws. A 'flawed film' is a failure. A film with a few flaws is a succes. :)
     
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  4. Grand Master Galen Marek

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    Yep it does, just as great.
     
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  5. BaranDo91

    BaranDo91 Rebelscum

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    Interesting video and I did appreciate his presentation, but really I prefer RO over TFA. I less hate TFA than I consider it an incomplete movie that is contingent on TLJ. RO, while definitely flawed, I honestly just found more entertaining. I liked the characters a lot more, particularly, Cassian and Churrit, and I enjoyed Krennic as an antagonist.

    TFA in terms of acting is a lot better and I would argue in terms of pacing, actually outdoes RO. However, in terms of the climaxes, RO has it beat. And usually, I'm the kind of guy who is more forgiving. But I do appreciate an honest look from the perspective of a filmmaker and screenwriter.

    But as someone who isn't one of those and is a fan of the lore and the world, Rogue One will always take it from me. But whatever. People can debate the validity of the two movies as much as they want. I'm just happy we are getting more SWs movies. Though, a Netflix series would be nice. Particularly, one on Bobba Fett or even the 501st. More so on the latter.
     
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  6. Moral Hazard

    Moral Hazard Force Sensitive

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    Great post, lessons from the screenplay is always an entertaining and informative watch.

    As fascinating as it is to view films through the lens of screenplay writing I'm going to put on my contrarian hat for a moment and question some of his critiques with an eye to the bigger narrative picture.

    I get the feeling some of the creative decisions that may seem questionable to conventional screenwriting wisdom likely exist to explore some other important storytelling function (because editing...compromise...yada-yada).

    Despite the author's concern that the Bor Gullet scene "has no meaningful consequences for the plot" because "afterward Saul still doesn't believe the pilot" being completely misfounded (I think Saul believes the pilot's intentions are genuine but is still left wondering if he is part of a greater trap), it may have been left in to show (not tell;)) Saul's extremist tendencies and illustrate the borderline paranoia that often dovetails with wartime security culture.

    Similarily, portraying Jynn's "passive protagonism" through "lack of meaningful choices" is actually an interesting creative choice for this story. Successful or not, it shows us that even strong characters can still be helplessly swept along by events in a bigger universe and this situation may even help garner audience sympathy with her plight. This approach also provides room for her to overcome a "weakness that is preventing her from becoming her best self" (her lack of control over her circumstances) and complete an arc by emphasising her eventual agency over the very forces that sought to control her.

    My two cents anyways. Good stuff though, thoughtful and constructive criticism too often seems to be the exception these days!
     
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  7. Nathan_Marrek

    Nathan_Marrek Force Attuned

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    I love this video. Great insight and wow.....it makes me think about what I should concentrate more on for my story/stories when it comes to creating characters and how they fit in the plot of the storyline.
     
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  8. Merman

    Merman Rebelscum

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    I would like your post if it weren't for the whole ''When really smart people think'' comment. This leaves little place for debate and it seems like you are saying that everyone who doesn't agree with you is dumb. It's the same as if I commented on your post and wrote that only dorks disagree.
     
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  9. Ammianus Marcellinus

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    This refers to the person who made the video, not specifically the person who says something contrary to the argument presented (you, possibly). The person in the video gave a very smart and critical analysis of both films according to the academic rules of critical evaluation that people should use when they judge whether a film is objectively good or bad. He executed this excellently.

    For instance if I grade student papers: if a person comes up with a theory or thesis and does not execute it properly. As a consequence he or she gets a low grade. If a student does the opposite, he or she gets a high grade.

    As such, the video is meant to show people of both sides of the argument that their personal reception of a movie doesn't make it objectively bad or good. Film-making and storytelling is a technical art. It can be judged according to certain evaluative criteria. This is what the maker of the video does. He shows that both films are good, that both display some flaws in their narrative structure, but that still The Force Awakens is, technically speaking, a far superior film to Rogue One.

    Do you also notice that the famous 'Mary Sue' and 'Copy/rehash' are not used, nor by any other professional academic critic who reviewed The Force Awakens. First of all because these specific categories are too broad and vague and are hence unusable in any academic discourse and evaluation of films and its narrative and characters. And second, because the people who are actually making the aforesaid accusations are forcing the square peg to fit the round hole by contantly manipulating those categories to make their accusations fit in hilarious circular arguments. In other words, for an academically trained critic not only are 'Mary Sue' and 'Copy Rehash' ridiculous categories in modern pop culture environments unsuitable for academic criticism, the viewers who critique the movie by means of them do so in a wrong manner even according to their own fabricated criteria of what a 'Mary Sue' or 'Rehash' should be.

    So even though, someone like you might personally dislike TFA (to which you are of course entitled), you must also accept that people who really know something about film making and evaluate it academically as a technical art/endavour. You must accept that they judge The Force Awakens to be a very good, yes superior, movie.

    - a dork -
     
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  10. Amanaman

    Amanaman Rebel Official

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    It still is simply his personal opinion as nobody can tell you what exact criteria you SHOULD use to judge a film if it is good or bad. Just because the poster of the video doesn't say the words ''rehash'' or ''Mary Sue'' it doesn't mean that those things are not true as this is a thing of personal opinions. Take for example the Minions movie:
    Minions.jpg
    Said movie has made lots more money than Lord of the Rings, Pirates of the Caribbean, The Hobbit and almost every single Harry Potter movie. Does that mean that Minions HAS to be better than those movies? Of course not as this is just the opinion a lots of fans that liked the movie yet it's not the opinion of every single person out there.
     
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  11. Lady Oola

    Lady Oola Rebelscum

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    I disagree and I find your way of seeing things insulting. Who says who has the right to say something is superior to something else? Just because you like it that doesn't mean that you are right and everyone is wrong. Rey is my favorite character from TFA and I like that movie alot but does that mean she isn't a Mary Sue? Yes she totally is a Mary Sue as she was portrayed as an extremely overpowered character. Is TFA a rehash? Yes it totally is a rehash of ANH and just because I like the movie it doesn't make me blind to this. Now does that make me dumb in your eyes because according to you, someone ''that really knows something'' is superior to me and it makes my words less valid?
     
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  12. Ammianus Marcellinus

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    You are getting me wrong: there are in fact academic criteria to evaluate whether a movie is technically a succes or not. I'm not saying anything about whether you should like it or not. Box office is a different criterium whether a movie was succesful or not; but that's an economic one criterium not an academic one. Box office results are not used in academic critique of media.
    --- Double Post Merged, May 4, 2017, Original Post Date: May 4, 2017 ---
    I'm not saying you're dumb and blind. :) What I'm explaining is why in the academic critique of TFA or RO the evaluative categories of 'Mary Sue' and 'Rehash' are universally ignored, mainly because these criteria are so broad and malleable that they become unusable for evaluating whether or not, from an academic view, the artistic endevour of TFA was a technical succes or not. Academic critics agree that it is, but that doesn't make your view or others, that it isn't, less valuable or stupid. What it does do is nullify the position that TFA 'is a bad movie because it is a rehash and its main character is a Mary Sue'. You might think that it is, it is your right to do so, but please also understand that in a academic evaluation those criteria are frowned upon.

    For instance, if I were to say that Rey is 'Mary Sue' according to the standards of 'fan criticism' (which is different from academic criticism), I can of course defend the position that she (a woman) is a Mary Sue:

    1 Rey has superior technical skills for no reason
    2. flies ships without prior training
    3. uses the force without problems
    4. defeats her opponents without any effort.
    5. is never emotionally challenged
    6. and never makes mistakes
    7. Doesn't need male support to achieve her goal nor aknowledges male support when it does happen
    8. Is instantly liked by everyone

    The fan who then goes on to contest the 'Mary Sue' category would say:

    1. Rey's technical skills are a result of her years of scavenging on Jakku
    2. As for her flying skills, Rey already explains that she has "flown many ships before, but never took them off world"
    3. Rey's use of the force can only be understood in combination with her technical and piloting skills: it's a classic genaeological trope used in order to highlight that Rey is part of the Skywalker family. Anakin and Luke had those same skills. (family motif, Rey as the 'king's daughter')
    4. Rey was defeated in her first encounter with Kylo Ren who freezed and mind probed her without effort ('rape' motif, Rey as a helpless woman)
    5. Rey cries and is emotionally upset constantly throughout the movie and is emotionally challenged on a number of occasions: most and foremost Rey's actions after finding the sabre and experiencing the forceback vision. She literally runs from her destiny. Cries almost in every major scene up until the end of the movie. (motif: women are naturally more inclined to show emotional response than men)
    6. Rey continuously makes mistakes througout the movie. She crashes the Falcon multiple times. Rey is naive by trusting Finn instantly. Unleashes the raptors by accident (not so technically skilled after all!). Runs from her destiny on Takodana. Is captured by Kylo Ren in forest. Uses her hate and anger to defeat Kylo on Starkiller.
    7. Rey aknowledges that despite her first position she does in the end need Han, Chewie and more importantly Finn to escape Starkiller and fulfill her destiny. She hugs Finn and thanks him on Starkiller. Finn sacrifices himself in order to save Rey who lies incapacitated on the ground, is himself incapacitated as a result. Needs Chewie to get off Starkiller and in the end kisses Finn on the head and says: "thank you"
    8. It is obvious that Rey is not instantly liked by everyone. Unkar rips her off and mistrusts her. Finn runs from her in their first scene. Kylo is interested in her but ultimately sees her as an enemy especially when they first meet in the forest.

    Of course I can do the same thing with the Rehash/Copy criticism. But now to those people who feel so tremendously offended by my posts above, which of the two (Mary Sue/Not Mary Sue), as I described them above, is the more convincing argument in your opinion and why?
     
    #12 Ammianus Marcellinus, May 4, 2017
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  13. Moral Hazard

    Moral Hazard Force Sensitive

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    FWIW the thread title might mislead people into thinking the vid is an analysis of which movie was "better" opposed to just being one video essay in a series that examines different screenwriting techniques through the literature and film-maker's writing choices.
     
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  14. Burter

    Burter Clone Commander

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    If I were to respond to the fan who contested Rey not being a Mary Sue answering your 8 statements it would go like this:

    1-Luke was around machines and worked on them on Tatooine.

    2-Luke was a great pilot and it was said so in the movie while we are left to assume that somebody thought Rey. Who teached her how to fly? Unkar Plutt? We are supposed to find it credible that a girl who wasn't meant to leave the planet would be given flying lessons by the very guy who was supposed to keep her there and he left her free to just grab any ship she could find and just take off?

    3-Both Anakin and Luke had the combination of technical and piloting skills and they still needed to be trained by others in the use of the Force so it can't be a classic genaeological trope.

    4-Still doesn't explain how a girl who had just learned that the Force existed only moments ago could take down a Dark Jedi trained by both Luke Skywalker and Snoke.

    5-You can't be more of a crybaby than Luke and he was constantly emotionally challenged on a number of occasions and yet he still wasn't shown as an overpowered Mary Sue. Same goes for Anakin.

    6-The only real mistake she did was release the Rathars. Everything else shows her to be perfect in every way.

    7-Rey was doing just fine even before Han had even gotten there. She had already evaded capture and all she needed to do was get a ship. With her incredible piloting skills Rey didn't need to be rescued.

    8-Plutt seems to dislike everyone, Finn ran because a girl with a staff was running madly towards him with an angry expression and Kylo didn't see her as an enemy, he saw her as a potential ally and even offered to train her.
     
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  15. Ammianus Marcellinus

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    You see. This is exactly what I meant. :) This is exactly why 'Mary Sue' is a useless category.
     
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  16. Lock_S_Foils

    Lock_S_Foils Red Leader

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    In my mind R1 cannot be compared to TFA or any other of the numbered episodes. They are both enjoyable movies to me, for different reasons, however personally I liked R1 better than TFA.

    I grew up in the military, 26 years US Air Force. My perceptions of things are shaped to a large extent through my experience as an Air Force officer. Teamwork, mission-oriented attitude, putting service above self.....things we learned very early on in our careers from senior non-commissioned officers and others, those with more experience, those that made mistakes in their careers and wanted to pass this knowledge on.

    This experience shaped my very strong positive reaction to R1 because of the themes woven into the movie that resonated with me....themes I experienced in my career. It is the most different SW movie of any other to date...... it truly is an epic war movie made in the SW Universe. And it was nothing like I expected!
     
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  17. CTrent29

    CTrent29 Rebel Official

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    No. I do not believe that "ROGUE ONE" matched up to "THE FORCE AWAKENS". The 2016 movie surpassed it in terms of quality.
     
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  18. Ammianus Marcellinus

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    nahhhhh
     
  19. AstromechRecords

    AstromechRecords Jedi General

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    I'm not a huge fan of either one and I saw the video a while ago at 3am browsing YouTube
    -___- but I think you can't compare either one because of the evolution of the way the movies are being produced and also because R1 is so tightly constrained in regards to the way it can only play out...for me it's better off not made for what it is as it wasn't really truly necessary but yeah you shouldn't need to compare the two, they're different fruits.
     
  20. NotQyteNeo

    NotQyteNeo Force Sensitive

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    Rogue One is my favorite SW movie to date. So my answer would be a resounding no, It does not match up. It's much better than TFA.
     
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