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Does the Sequel Trilogy have a cohesive story?

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker' started by Adam812, Dec 24, 2019.

  1. Adam812

    Adam812 Rebel General

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    This seems to be the #1 complaint about the sequel trilogy. There was no overall plan. There were different
    directors with different visions passing the story along rather than following a blueprint. Now we do not have a cohesive story.

    This was not a complaint I shared before TROS came out. I thought that TFA and TLJ made a cohesive narrative even though Rian did some unexpected things with the mysteries JJ set up.

    Now I am feeling differently with this new movie. If Rian through TFA under the bus, JJ through TLJ under an even bigger bus. This my biggest complaint about TROS. I feel JJ ignored some important elements from TLJ that hurt the sequel trilogy as a whole.

    The biggest one for me is the fact Luke's big sacrifice at the end of TLJ is never addressed. The idea was that Luke inspired hope all over the galaxy. Yet we don't see the galaxy band together until the end of this movie.

    The broom boy scene was to show that new Jedi were cropping up around the galaxy ready to come out of the woodwork. Yet we don't see anything done with that.

    Rey being Palpatine's daughter was just too convoluted for my taste. I was perfectly comfortable with her being a nobody and a counterbalance to the dark side.

    Kylo Ren wanting to create a new order is never addressed. He is way to quick to side with Palpatine after having killed Snoke. But I have to admit that the mask looks cool.

    Maybe I'll feel different later but these are my complaints right now.
     
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  2. Messi

    Messi G.O.A.T.

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    Its convoluted because its a new idea and its hard to acept now.
    Rey being a nobody works so well as a Palpatine and vice-versa. The impact to the character its even worse and hard to dealing when she realises that her "father" is a mass murderer and a dark lord of the sith.
    During the times of TFA and TLJ a lot of fans complained that how a girl being a nobody has so much power and is so connected to the force.
    JJ gave us the awnser and now the fans are complaining that she is a Palpatine.

    PS. Not a father, but the grandfather.
     
    #2 Messi, Dec 24, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2019
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  3. Martoto

    Martoto Rebel Official

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    "During the times of TFA and TLJ a lot of fans complained that how a girl being a nobody has so much power and is so connected to the force."

    It never bothered me. The force is a mystery itself. I'm fairly happy for much of it to remain that way.
     
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  4. Juniper

    Juniper Rebel Commander

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    Even Finn's arc was just poorly seen through.

    He doesn't know who his family is, yet Lando sits with a brand new character only just introduced in the final film in the same situation and says to her "let's find out" who/where they are.

    Why wasn't that scene written for Finn?
     
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  5. Bandini

    Bandini Jedi Commander

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    There was one at the start but ep VIII didn't follow ep VII and IX didn't follow ep VIII.

    So yes, it's a little bit messy.
     
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  6. NinjaRen

    NinjaRen Supreme Leader

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    The ST definitely lacks a clear and united vision. Yes, there might have been a really rough outline, especially for Kylo Ren's character arc, but everything else was probably created on the run.

    You can notice this the most with Snoke, Palpatine and Rey.
     
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  7. The dinh

    The dinh Rebelscum

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    Yes I feel it was messy as well. I still believe, in my humble opinion, that Carrie Fisher's death in real life was the cause of it.
     
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  8. Iotatheta

    Iotatheta Rebelscum

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    To be honest, Snoke and Palpatine is a spot I notice it the least, but that may be because as soon as Ian McDiarmid was revealed at Celebration, my thought was “ohhhhhh, now it all makes more sense.”
     
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  9. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Rebel Official

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    The answer to this question is "Yes".

    We're all aware that this is the first set of films that gave the individual writers and directors somewhat free rein to craft the narrative of each film independently, but this was offset by having a core producing team - as well as the Story Group - present who were fully aware of everything that each individual film was going to bring to the table narratively.

    There were some bumps along the way, but ultimately having one of the members of that producing team - JJ Abrams - direct and co-write two of the 3 films in the Trilogy gave it a shape and direction that I firmly believe will be recognized once people calm down with their reactions to it and analyze it objectively as both an individual whole and as a part over the overall Trilogy of Trilogies that was first mentioned on the vinyl covers of the soundtrack for The Empire Strikes Back and that has now finally come to fruitioj.
    --- Double Post Merged, Dec 24, 2019, Original Post Date: Dec 24, 2019 ---
    That scene wasn't written for Finn because Lando already knows - or suspects that he knows - exactly who Jannah's family is.
     
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  10. Pastor Barndog

    Pastor Barndog Force Attuned

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    I figured Snoke was going to die in TFA so it was not a surprise at all in TLJ. Kylo was always supposed to try to be the Big Bad. So if there was a change to Snoke it was that they felt that he needed more explanation so they showed that he was Palpatine's puppet because there were complaints that he had no back story. As if in a galaxy of thousands of worlds new characters have to be close neighbors of past characters.
    Snoke was intended to die.
    Kylo was supposed to be Supreme Leader

    I think the changes were bigger when JJ came back. For one he has a different vision than the previous director but they also had 2 movies of feed back.
     
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  11. Bluemilk

    Bluemilk I AM the Senate

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    GL didn't have a plan either contrary to popular belief. For the OT that is. He's contradicted himself many times. He also said there was no 7-9. Yet he sold Lucasfilm and had treatments.Originally, Vader was not Luke's father.

    GL had a clearer picture with the prequels in that it was more mapped out than any of the trilogies.
    He alwasy liked to claim he had the T all planned out from the beginning including the twist of Vader being Luke's father. But that isn't true.
     
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  12. Viper78

    Viper78 Rebel Official

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    Nope.
     
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  13. SlimerJoel

    SlimerJoel Clone Trooper

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    I like 2/3 of the trilogy but it's very apparent that as the films were released, the lack of a real concrete plan for everything became more and more visible.

    I found TFA to be a good, if really safe, film. It was what it needed to be and introduced a solid amount of dangling plot threads that could potentially be explored later on. TLJ I think did a good job of focusing on and even completing some of those plot threads efficiently (most notably Rey's parents and the cause of Luke's exile and Kylo Ren's rise to darkness) but also fell flat on focusing on aspects only touched upon in TFA that would've been more than welcome (Finn being a defiant Stormtrooper is super interesting and I'm very sad that it was shoved aside for an ultimately unnecessary fetch quest). ROS seemed way more inherently detrimental to the entire trilogy, casually throwing aside great developments in TLJ for an extremely poor and rushed conclusion.
     
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  14. Snazel

    Snazel Force Sensitive

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    NO

    That's obvious.

    The better question is does it matter? Is it okay that each of the ST films are essentially atomic and each one thereafter decides to go in a different direction with both character, plot and theme.

    I think it is okay. I mean Star Trek made films this way for decades, there's little to no connective tissue in any of the Star Trek films and most assuredly the original Star Trek II of the early 80's was a reboot of the horrible bore that was Star Trek I of 1979.

    Also FOO on this idea that "if you look close" Rey Palpatine was hinted at all along. Yes, Rey sometimes holds her light saber like Palpatine did in Episode III, but JJ has gone ON RECORD as saying he didn't think of bringing the emperor back until October 2017. So that's that. It was NOT planned. It was NOT something foreshadowed or hinted at. We all sometimes wish it were so we can go "hunting" for proof, just to make ourselves feel better, but the fact is, the Emperor was scribbled back into the story, simply because JJ could not think of a better way to combat the twitter-rage of Episode 8.

    Does it matter?

    Could TROS be a good movie without any real links to previous ST installments? For some it already is. The fan rating for this film still remains remarkably high.

    Liking or not liking art is a personal, subjective thing anyway. I can't really tell you why I love a native artist named Eddie Cobiness, or why I love Marc Chagall's art and collect it but find art from the early renaissance boring and unappealing. There's no scientific analysis that can produce a reason, it's just what I like.

    That's what makes art so hard, you make it and you have no control over how your audience will react to it. Even when they like it, they often interpret it completely differently from your intention. Song writers will tell you this, that people interpret meaning into lyrics that WERE NEVER THERE. Art produces a deeply human and emotional response.

    There is no "CORRECT" way to make art and there is no "CORRECT" way to react to it.

    A concept, that sometimes we pedantic nerds (myself included) sometimes forget.
     
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  15. JediJarJar

    JediJarJar Rebelscum

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    No sorry the story wasnt laid out at all.if i said otherwise i would be in denial.
     
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  16. Too Gon Onbourbon

    Too Gon Onbourbon Rebel General

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    Partially.

    The Kylo Ben/Rey duology theme and story is strong throughout and is the most critical piece but the other threads tend towards messy.
     
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  17. iostream

    iostream Rebelscum

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    I'd propose the story is quite cohesive, in several different motifs. I'd say that the most clear and cohesive story is actually stated in the exchange at the end of the movie:

    There's been no one for so long (episode 7)
    Who are you? (episode 8)

    Rey Skywalker (episode 9)

    Like Poe said, they were hopeful but thought they were alone. That's why that theme "they win by making you think you're alone" "you're not alone" and they needed to be lead "Good people will fight if we lead them" - just because hope is there doesn't mean people will band together and do something to realize that hope.

    I'd propose we don't need it, it's not relevant to the narrative. We know force users are out there (even among the Resistance) and they will be the future of the Jedi after the Final Order is overturned.

    If Rey were a true nobody then we wouldn't have gotten the redemption of Palpatine by the hand of Skywalker. That idea is far more brilliant than any other narrative conclusion. "Rey is a nobody and counterbalance to the dark side" pales in comparison to "Palpatine is redeemed by Skywalker"

    Not sure what that means.

    Because we have just been introduced to her, just as we were first introduced to Rey the no one without a family. Lando saying "Let's find out" is the beginning of this newly introduced no one's Rey-like journey of "Who are you?" It doesn't work as well with a firmly established character like Finn.
     
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  18. Juniper

    Juniper Rebel Commander

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    Yeah I get that, but why wasn't Finn giving a family resolution?

    Also, the average person won't have the suspicion that Lando is Jannah's dad from that scene, as all the stuff about his child being taken from him by the First Order was cut.
     
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  19. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Rebel Official

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    Because there aren't any characters in the Sequel Trilogy who would have knowledge of where he came from.

    You're correct that most of the "Jannah is Lando's daughter" story was cut from the film itself, but it does remain Canonical and while the average movie goer might not appreciate the deeper meaning behind the scene, it doesn't need to have that deeper meaning attached to it in order for it to work or be justified.
     
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  20. SegNerd

    SegNerd Rebel Official

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    If you ask me, the biggest problem isn’t the question of whether RJ or JJ threw each other under a bigger bus - in my opinion, JJ and RJ together threw GL under the biggest bus.

    I liked GL’s original vision of SW (episodes 1-6), and I just don’t feel that the ST fits with his vision.

    I enjoyed TROS way more than TFA or TLJ, but it is probably not enough for me to accept the ST into my head canon.

    I have spoken.
     
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