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Does the Sequel Trilogy have a cohesive story?

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker' started by Adam812, Dec 24, 2019.

  1. Rayjefury

    Rayjefury Force Sensitive

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    That is some pretty absolute language there. I'm not sure that the question is something that lends itself to being proven or disproved unequivocally if you are accounting for context and nuance. We could start with the obvious question: what constitutes "cohesion"? If you don't have a singular, unambiguous, and accepted definition and scope of application for that, how do you determine that something is or isn't unequivocally true?

    I'm not saying you personally can't put together a compelling case for what you believe. I'm just pointing out, it's still a belief.
     
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  2. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Rebel Official

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    The things I'm about to rattle off about the Sequel Trilogy as a whole and TRoS in particular aren't beliefs or opinions, they're 100% provable facts, and they absolutely demonstrate that the ST has a cohesive story structure and that opinions to the contrary are objectively and unequivocally incorrect:
    * Numerous elements of George Lucas' Sequel Trilogy outlines were utilized by JJ Abrams, Lawrence Kasdan, and Rian Johnson in the writing of both The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi

    * JJ Abrams and Chris Terrio worked directly with George Lucas to map out the narrative mechanism behind Palpatine's return, and TRoS introduces new narrative lore about the Sith that could only have come from George's mind and that is both consistent with the nature of the Force as it has come to be defined by both The Clone Wars and Rebels and that completely recontextualizes all six of the 'original' Episodic films vis a vis Palpatine's place in the story

    * TRoS' story makes a concerted effort to tie together not only The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi, but the Prequel Trilogy, The Clone Wars, Rebels, and the Classic Trilogy as well

    * Kathleen Kennedy made JJ Abrams an equal production partner on all 3 Sequel Trilogy films, ensuring that both he and she oversaw the making of the movies on almost every level

    * It has been repeatedly stated and affirmed by JJ and Rian that JJ was both fully aware and supportive of what the story of The Last Jedi was going to be long before circumstances conspired to put him back in the Director's chair and behind a writing desk for The Rise of Skywalker, and JJ has reaffirmed that he did not undo, ignore, or otherwise alter anything that Rian brought to the table once he and Chris Terrio were tasked with writing TRoS' script, had zero intention of doing so, and was delighted with the story avenues that Rian's choices in TLJ presented for TRoS
     
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  3. Yoda 2

    Yoda 2 Rebel Official

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    I just tried to watch The Last Jedi again and some parts of the story are stronger now knowing what happens in TROS but the parts with Rose, Finn and the Casino planet are just horrible. I had to turn it off. It’s actually depressing seeing those scenes.
    --- Double Post Merged, Dec 27, 2019, Original Post Date: Dec 27, 2019 ---
    There’s awesome things that happen in this trilogy but there’s also some very weird style choices and story decisions made that really bum me out. How could they nail some parts and completely miss the mark on other parts?
     
    #43 Yoda 2, Dec 27, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2019
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  4. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

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    Man, that sucks.
    I'm sorry.

    I always wish everyone could enjoy Star Wars.
    I've been really lucky, as I've pretty well enjoyed every film in the saga.

    The only Star Wars film I've not really enjoyed was Rogue One, and I didn't hate it; I just was relatively apathetic about it.
    But I like that it was such a love and hit for other fans. :)

    When I watch TLJ, I'm just smiles the whole time - metaphorically (if you watched me watching it, it would look like a statue staring at a wall, lol...I don't emote much when watching stuff).

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  5. GingerByte

    GingerByte Guest

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    Short answer: no

    Longer answer: sort-of

    Longest answer: the sub-plots of the sequel trilogy are certainly the most cohesive, and naturally evolving. However the overall narrative is lacking, disjointed, and weak. In large part due to Abrams writing the next chapter based on where he needed it to go from TLJ, rather than where it could naturally go.
     
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  6. Yoda 2

    Yoda 2 Rebel Official

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    Let me rant a little about weird style choices

    Snoke should’ve never been CGI. Way too distracting.

    The aliens should’ve never looked cartoony. Cute and strange is all good but cartoony throws me off the reality of it all. I thought Jar Jar taught us all this lesson?

    Everything must be used and dirty to some degree even if it’s a rich casino world. TROS got this right the most.

    There’s more but my favorite Star Wars finale is about to come on. MANDO!
     
  7. Madmartigan

    Madmartigan Rebel Official

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    Despite my little disappointments with TLJ "undoing things", I still think the overall story has some strong and cohesive connections, I must say thanks to TROS.
     
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  8. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Rebel Official

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    You're disappointed by something that didn't actually happen.
     
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  9. Messi

    Messi G.O.A.T.

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    Wich Snoke? From TFA or TLJ?

    The Snoke in TFA is mysterious and I don't think the CGI is bad.

    The Snoke from TLJ is impressive. One of the best CGI I ever saw. Also his lines are great.
     
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  10. Porco Azzurro

    Porco Azzurro Jedi General

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    For me, it most definitely feels amazingly cohesive. Like, ridiculously, incredibly cohesive. And the saga’s story as a whole even more so, given how long a period of time the films were produced and released apart, by so many writers and directors.
     
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  11. Iotatheta

    Iotatheta Rebelscum

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    really? I was Impressed with his cgi. Andy Serkis did a fantastic job with the mocap, and he felt as believable as anything else in Star Wars, even moreso than some other things.

    what was “cartoony” as you saw? Granted, i have no qualms with Jar Jar and the other Gungans. Aliens are just that, and i’m not Surprised that some very easily could look “cartoony”.

    Everything used and dirty? like the Death Star interior, Cloud City, The Falcon before Han got it, and Padme’s ships. I’m confused by this. To my knowledge, We’ve seen plenty of stuff that doesn’t look “used and dirty”
     
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  12. cuoreviola89

    cuoreviola89 Rebel Trooper

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    I can feel this story as a unique one, not 3 separate chapters. The only issue for me is about timing, too slow pace in the second movie, too fast in the third.

    If the second movie would be over with the shocking news that Palpatine was still alive and was the puppet master behind everything, the 3 movies would be perfectly balanced and connected each other. About this, I will open a new topic when I will have the rights to ask you guys a question: what do you think about the idea of editing the movies, moving the beginning of SW9 at the end of SW8?

    Going back to topic, I see a big development in the 2 protagonists, a slight development in the side characters (weaker than the evolution of Han and Leia), a great balance and attention given to the 3 iconic heroes of the OT. I think that time will allow people to internalize thev story, the fact that Palpating has been hidden and alive for the whole time, and multiple views will make us fall in love with this new characters as much as we did with the old ones!
     
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  13. Darth Chewie

    Darth Chewie Rebel Official

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    You can say the same for the OT to an extent. Vader being Luke's father, and the later "from a certain point of view" explanation, was clearly done on the run. If Lucas always knew that Vader was going to be Luke's father, then why would Luke be hidden on Anikans home planet with the same last name, with family members? That is as about has dumb as anything people complain about the ST.

    But that's Star Wars. People complained about Palpatines plan in TROS, that it was silly and not well thought out. Why would he do this, or do that, when he could have just done this, ect. Well lets look at Palpy's plan in ROTJ. He gave the Rebels the plans to the DS and the location of the Shield Generator. He allowed them time to analyze them and formulate a plan and then land on the planet. He allowed Luke to be brought before him(Vader convinced him to do this), rather then just have Vader kill Luke and be done with the threat. The Imperial Fleet of Star Destroyers could have easily wiped the floor with the Alliance Fleet, but nooo, Palps just had to show off his new toy instead. Palpy's actions allowed the Alliance a chance to win, when he could have just left well enough alone or taken the easier route, and he probably would still be the Emperor of the Galaxy. So we can chalk it all up to his extreme arrogance.

    Star Wars doesn't always have to make sense, it just needs to be fun and adventurous.
     
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  14. starwarsforever

    starwarsforever Rebelscum

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    Knowing Disney Lucasfilm they going do that in comic books because he not important enough character to show that on-screen. But in a few comic books and novels so we keep buying their product we see his back story and most likely where he heads too, along with Rey and Poe.
     
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  15. Rayjefury

    Rayjefury Force Sensitive

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    Let me stop you here. This part in blue? This is opinion. It's what you are arguing based on the bullet points that followed. That you base it on the bullet points does not make it LESS opinion.
     
  16. Anubis78

    Anubis78 Mad we are all mad here.... Now time for tea
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    It should be stated opinions or facts are all used to back your point from whatever side you are on. Please keep thing on point and not personal!!
     
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  17. Too Gon Onbourbon

    Too Gon Onbourbon Rebel General

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    It is not being personal to differentiate between fact and opinion and if they are allowed to be conflated then only nonsense, chaos, and misinformation can flourish.
     
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  18. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

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    True.
    The way it was phrased could cause a reading that conflates an opinion as fact, as the aesthetic quality of "cohesive story" is not capable of being objectively measured.

    What can be said, however, is worth being stated - and I believe this was more or less the concept he was driving at.
    What @DigificWriter's bullet list shows is that there has been a continued effort to make a cohesive story by those involved in the production of the films.

    That much is objectively observable.

    While this doesn't guarantee that the story is cohesive to everyone, it does rule out the possibility that a cohesive story wasn't of focused interest by the production - which, if such were the case, it would make for a stronger case for the story not being cohesive to a wider subjective measure than otherwise.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  19. Shadowblade

    Shadowblade Clone Commander

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    I find it strange this is a discussion at all at this point.

    The criticism before TROS was that TLJ obviously did not build on TFA, and that there were huge problems with the story. On this forum we debated endlessly. The people who saw that «there was no plan» were often hounded and allocated to the «TLJ hate» thread. (Now closed, but will forever stay as the longest thread on this board...which says something)

    Now the lack of planning is so obvious that you would have to be braindead not to see it. You could argue that this didn’t hurt the sequels, but this is also blatantly untrue. The characters created did not have the arcs needed to make them legendary, nor an interesting SW universe going forward.

    We are left with a sequel of missed opportunities...that will spawn little enthusiasm and succesful spin-offs in the future. The prequels did a massive amount of world building, and for all their faults, will stand the test of time alongside the OT, Rogue One and the mandalorian. The rest will not age well at all.

    My guess is that Disney in the future will do more TV shows, building on their success. After a time, they will look to the past and the old republic, rather then going forwards. They will learn from their mistakes, put someone at the helm to control and plan an overarching plot, and start with a fresh cast and characters.
     
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  20. Messi

    Messi G.O.A.T.

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    Don't think so. The PT are still horribles movies to.watch. They are.not ageing well.
    ST are far superior in all aspects, maybe not the soundtrack only.
     
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