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Even as someone who likes the ST, there's

Discussion in 'General Sequel Trilogy Discussion' started by kuatorises, May 5, 2020.

  1. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    I understand your point. What I’m saying is that the part that’s important to the actual story being told is what we got insight in to. Where we find Han and Leia at the beginning of TFA is a direct result to what happened with their son. What happened with their son is directly related to what happened to Luke and that’s what the story revolves around: finding Luke. Or rather, what finding Luke represents - countering despair and restoring hope.

    Han: We both had to deal with it in our own way. I went back to the only thing I was ever any good at.
    Leia: We both did.

    Leia formed a militia to combat the evil that took her son head on, to deal with her grief over that loss. That's where she's at. That's how she got there. Han ran away and distracted himself with the familiar to deal with that same grief. That's where he's at. That's how he got there. That's the backstory. Whatever happened with them before that is inconsequential to the story being told. Through their respective actions, we’re informed of their emotional states. Promotion versus avoidance.
    I certainly would have liked more exploration into the world at large, the people in it, and what this conflict meant on a grander scale. But that’s more a ‘want’ than a ‘need’. The story would have benefitted from it, IMO, but works adequately well enough without it. I was never lost while watching this trilogy. I understand why everyone was doing what they were doing. I was just disappointed that we didn’t linger a bit more to flesh out the greater significance. So, I don’t totally disagree with you here.
    Sure we do. It’s right there in the dialogue.

    Rey: Why did you kill him? I don't understand.
    Kylo: No? Your parents threw you away like garbage...But you can't stop needing them. It's your greatest weakness. Looking for them everywhere, in Han Solo, now in Skywalker...He had sensed my power, as he senses yours. And he feared it...Let the past die. Kill it if you have to. That's the only way to become what you were meant to be.

    Kylo is projecting his perspective onto Rey by relating her experience to his own. He feels like HE was thrown away like garbage by his parents - by being sent away to Luke.

    Han: There's too much Vader in him.
    Leia: That's why I wanted him to train with Luke.

    But he stilled needed them and tried to fill that need with Luke. But Luke let him down. Just like his parents, Luke feared the ‘Vader’ in him (he believes). That fear then led to absolute betrayal (in his mind). So, his reaction is to destroy it all. To tear down those relics of the past that failed him and become what he thinks he was meant to be. The darkside is how he (wrongly) thinks he’ll achieve that. Make sense?
    They sent him away because they were afraid of him. In his mind, he was abandoned. Discarded. He was thrown away because of this unmanageable power that wasn’t his fault he possessed. That’ll f**k a kid up right good and proper, man. The X-Men have been spinning gold with that premise for decades now.
    That’s an itemized list of events. What about that tells us how he actually feels? It doesn’t and it’s not supposed to. We’re intended to intuit that just like we’re intended to intuit how Han and Leia are feeling based on what’s been presented.
     
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  2. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Rebel Official

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    This desire to have each and every element of the 30-year period between RotJ and TFA explained in detail stems from a false perception of when, how, and why the galaxy and the characters we know and care about got to the state they're in/the positions they're at when TFA begins.

    The story we follow through the Sequel Trilogy only really begins about 6 years before TFA starts, with the two major catalysts for the events of that film being the emergence of the First Order 6 years before TFA and Ben Solo's fall shortly thereafter, one of which is covered in TLJ and the other of which is covered in a novel that was released in the lead-up to the release of that film.
     
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  3. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    I do think that the transmedia could probably cover that era a little better, but I'm sure it'll happen in time.

    It's just something that, if you'd asked me five or six years ago, I'd have assumed was much better fleshed out than it currently is.

    Even the Battle of Jakku wasn't even really very well detailed until mid to late 2017ish (at which point we had Lost Stars, Battlefront II, and Empire's End).
     
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  4. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    And, ultimately, had no real significance to the ST itself. But, hey, now we know. Another box checked :)
     
  5. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    Ehh, I mean you're mostly right.

    But it's just kinda the approach to things.

    Think back to 2015-
    We don't know who Rey is.
    We don't know what happened to our OT heroes after Endor.
    We don't know how the First Order arose.

    Jakku, touted as the final battle of the GCW, was a shining beacon of context. Maybe all we needed was just the imagery of ruins in the sand, but it definitely drove me nuts for years, until the final (and personally, relatively unsatisfying) reveal of what happened.

    And that's the thing- it could've been more connected to the story but ultimately and frustratingly wasn't.

    But I complain too much :p
     
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  6. kuatorises

    kuatorises Rebelscum

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    This is a Strawman. I said we should have gotten more than we did, not "each and every detail".
     
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  7. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    Audience: I want answers. I want answers. I want answers.
    Lucasfilm: Here’s some answers.
    Audience: . . . . . . . . . . I don’t like these answers :D
    Audience: Rey was left on the same planet that Palpatine had a secret observatory searching the Unknown Regions!? OMG, how do those two things connect?
    Lucasfilm: They don’t. Total coincidence.
    Audience: . . . . . . . . . . Oh.

    The Aftermath series played out to me like an arc in ‘Agents of SHIELD’ (casual fan). While the big name marque heroes were out saving the world, little did they know at the same time, a bunch of ‘C’ level heroes were ALSO saving the world from a totally different threat. Will the movies ever acknowledge that? No, of course not. Don’t be silly.
    Nah, just the right amount :)
     
  8. kuatorises

    kuatorises Rebelscum

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    Do you think Obi Wan feels good about his apprentice turning into the notorious Vader? I can't have this conversation if you're going to just continually dismiss and deny some blatantly obvious stuff.
    --- Double Post Merged, May 12, 2020, Original Post Date: May 12, 2020 ---
    Mark Hamill was told to shut up by his employers.
     
    #28 kuatorises, May 12, 2020
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  9. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    Yeah, that's part of what felt so strange about it.

    Especially in retrospect, even. Now that Rey's a Palpatine, it would've made a lot of sense to tie her in more closely to the observatory that she lived next to for so long.


    [​IMG]
     
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  10. kuatorises

    kuatorises Rebelscum

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    1. "The books and comics will cover it" only reinforces the movies' shortcomings.

    2. That being said, you are right about one thing: they've done a VERY poor job in the new EU fleshing out some of the time periods and events not seen on screen. It's shocking how little post-ROTJ/fall of the empire stuff there is.
     
    #30 kuatorises, May 12, 2020
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  11. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    That’s exactly the point I’m making and why I brought it up. We, the audience, are able to infer Obi-Wan’s emotional state through context only. We aren’t blatantly told how he feels. We don’t dwell on it. The premise, couple with his observable reaction, tells us all we need to know.

    A mountain's worth more of material is left there that could be harvested to add more significance and weight for that character and the story, but that wasn’t the point. That wasn’t the focus. We got just the tippy top of that iceberg and then filled the rest in ourselves. Making the story more personal because we continued it in our heads.

    It’s no different with Han and Leia. We got the circumstance and we got their reaction to it. We can work the rest out for ourselves.
    That’s certainly your prerogative.
     
    #31 eeprom, May 12, 2020
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  12. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    You are invited to play the brand new game show, MYSTERY BOX!
    What's inside? Who knows!
    Is it important? Maybe!
    Will we ever know? Possibly!
    Is the answer ever going to live up to the mystery? And now it's someone else's turn to tell you!

    200 (1).gif

    produced by Bad Robot.
     
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  13. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    Exactly, that's the thing- there's been a lot of "you don't like Star Wars now because of your own expectations" talk lately, and in some cases I think it's fair.

    But I think there's a bit more to that discussion. TFA deliberately seeded the ST with a litany of potential plot threads, many of which some fans try to deny.

    For instance, Rey's parentage was absolutely teased as important in TFA- and even if you believe that increases effectiveness of the "Rey Nobody" in TLJ (which, fair), it's also no mystery why a lot of fans felt shortchanged with that- and then, of course, the pendulum swung back again with "Rey Palpatine".

    Jakku, Luke's temple, the Resistance, the origins of the First Order, Snoke's identity- I know that subjectively some might claim that we did get satisfying followup to these things, and I'm not here to try to convince someone otherwise. But I do think it's pretty easy to see why some fans wanted more.
     
  14. kuatorises

    kuatorises Rebelscum

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    Because the movies give us material to work with, LOL! That is the point. The entire original trilogy is loaded with it.

    It's SIGNIFICANTLY different with Han and Leia. In ANH we get almost an entire movie of Obi Wan filling us in on the backstory and history of this universe and the characters who occupy it. Hell Owen and Beru give us more than Han and Leia did in their 3 minutes together in TFA. And that was the BEST the sequels had to offer in that department. It was tossed out the window in the other two. Everything was about the here and now. Fast-moving chase scenes with no world backstory. Then throughout the TESB and ROTJ we get multiple scenes with Obi Wan and Yoda telling us stuff. It's not even comparable. The sequels are a failure in this department. They are fun, but they are fluff.
     
  15. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    Virtually everything in TFA is teased as important or some how more significant than it really is while actually confirming none of that.
    It's Star Wars so people jump to the familiar to fill those gaps so the reveal she's no one in TLJ feels like a bigger "subversion" than it really is, when there's just as much going on in TFA for it to make sense that she is no one as it is for her to be Luke's long lost daughter (because Luke abandoning a daughter is so much less depressing than him being concerned over the new space Hitler he has to worry about).

    That's all teased as important because that's JJ's style of film making. He puts the mystery box above all else. The fact that not everything can be important in a movie is the fallout of that and him having to come back and do TROS is the ultimate "welp" moment in film making. Realizing how hard it is to follow up that kind of film making with a logical ending that "satisfies" people.

    The story would struggle to be three movies and be about Rey. And be about Kylo. And be about Snoke. And be about the state of the galaxy. And be about the original trio. And be about Finn. And be about Poe. And wrap up the Skywalker saga.

    I say this as someone who likes TFA and gave JJ my full support going into TROS with the obvious concern that he's an opener not a closer.
    There's really no right or wrong answer for the questions first posed in TFA. That's the JJ way.
     
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  16. kuatorises

    kuatorises Rebelscum

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    These are TLJ problems, not issues with TFA. TFA laid a groundwork for something. You're building a trilogy, there's nothing wrong with leaving unanswered questions in the first chaper. The problem is when the next chapter not only doesn't answer the questions, but throws them out the Maclunkey window. Rian Johnson completely and totally blasted up. TLJ doesn't even feel like a sequel to TFA because he ignored what was being set up and just wrote his own movie. "Who is this girl and why is she, an untrained person, able to go toe-to-toe with Darth Vader's grandson? She's a nobody! Parents were junkers!" What a disaster! Why do you think they brought the guy who made the first movie back to close out the series? Because there was damage done and they had to try and salvage something of the storyline. TROS is very clearly a band-aid, but at least it gave some semblance of cohesion to the trilogy as a whole. Johnson just threw everything off course. Jesus Christ, he killed the leader of the bad guys in the 2nd movie of a trilogy and made it very clear the next guy in line was going to be redeemed. Only way killing Snoke really works is if Ren stays bad. JJ wasn't the problem. He was building something.
     
    #36 kuatorises, May 12, 2020
    Last edited: May 12, 2020
  17. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    I agree with the spirit of this. You don’t get to give your ‘Luke analogue’ unnecessarily mysterious parentage and then claim it’s the fans fault for attaching too much significance. You know the culture. You knew what you were doing. But, going strictly by the text, TFA absolutely doesn’t promote Rey’s “family” as being important to anyone or anything other than her. So, both perspectives are valid, I feel.

    It’s so funny to me that the “Rey Nobody” moment was treated as a reveal when it totally wasn’t. The fans might have harbored hopes she had some hidden legacy, but the character didn’t. It would have been the most obvious reality for her.

    The actual revelation in that scene was that the parents she revered so much, and so desperately wanted to reunite with, were monsters that had sold her off. They didn’t reciprocate the love she had for them. It was all a self-delusion - a lie she’d been living. THAT’S what was supposed to break her. That’s what was supposed to turn her. That’s what she had to overcome and make peace with.

    What’s more funny is that Abrams apparently missed that too (or found it inconvenient). So Kylo’s ‘certain point of view’ makes no sense. “I never lied to you.” Um . . . . actually…
    I’m certainly interested in those things too. I’m also interested in all the other blanks that occupy those gaps. But odds are, going by recent history, what fills those blanks will likely result in little more than a resounding “Oh . . . . OK. Cool. Good to know . . . . now what?”
     
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  18. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    Sure, that was definitely a popular theory back in early 2016.

    But there were a lot of theories back then.

    It's easy to look back now and say it's obvious, but it really wasn't. It was just another mystery box JJ had laid.

    And again, I don't particularly mind Rey Nobody. It's an interesting subversion of the question posed- but I can also totally see how it can be deflating, given how much her parentage really was teased- both by fans, and by the movie itself.

    And of course, the actors and filmmakers themselves. The topic was definitely brought up by them time to time.
     
  19. kuatorises

    kuatorises Rebelscum

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    You just got done telling me you don't need to be specifically told something for it to be apparent. We are shown a flashback where Rey's parents are getting rid of her/hiding her. The movie goes out of it's way to show us that scene. And she goes toe-to-toe with Ren at the end of the same movie despite never touching a lightsaber in her life. The movie is telling us there is something to this girl's lineage even if no one says, "There's something to this girl's lineage."

    I don't know if JJ's original intention was to have her be a Palpatine or that was just a byproduct of trying to "fix" the issues created by TLJ, but it was pretty obvious from the get go that as of the time he wrote TFA, he was telling us there was something special or unique about her.
     
  20. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    While I agree TFA broadcasts the message "Rey Somebody" pretty heavily, I don't particularly see this as an example of it.

    She tapped into the Force (and against a wounded enemy).

    Though that's a topic that's been pretty thoroughly covered at this point.
     
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