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Execution VS Outcomes

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by AfraidFool, Mar 5, 2018.

?

Did you dislike the movie because of

  1. Execution

    13 vote(s)
    72.2%
  2. Outcomes

    5 vote(s)
    27.8%
  1. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Jedi General

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    I guess another possible few examples of where I like an outcome, but not the execution:

    Battle of Daquar

    An X-Wing and like five bombers take on a Dreadnought

    I don't mind that the Dreadnought was destroyed in the sequence (nice spin on the evacuation seen in Hoth) but the battle itself... didn't really even feel like a battle. It felt, for lack of a better description, like a kid playing with toys

    Battle of Crait
    Again, I like that both sides had a bit of a phyrric victory here, but it also didn't really feel so much like a battle as a small scale skirmish

    Canto Bight
    I didn't mind that they got a different code breaker than they were sent for (in fact, I liked that idea up until the mission ended up not really mattering at all anyway) but I wish more time was actually spent in the casino. It should've been Casino Royale in space, but a weird amount of time was spent in less interesting settings like jail cells, race tracks, and stables. Really, they never should have left the casino- they should've failed to get the attention of the master code breaker in an intense game of Sabacc, and as the Empire starts to realize they were there, they narrowly escape with DJ.


    Again, this coming from someone who generally defends the film. I think the biggest problem with it was its warped sense of scale- it's like trying to use a Mercator Map with the areas around the poles all stretched, the sense of scale just felt so strangely off.
     
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  2. Darth Basin The Greatest

    Darth Basin The Greatest Rebel Official

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    All of CB was "rear end", should of bin StormPilot on dat mission.
     
  3. Darth Garth

    Darth Garth Rebel General

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    Execution. Luke still could have come to the same outcome and be true to his established character. Execution as a whole? It was " wheel spinning the movie" which Rich Evans so famously stated. The theme of failure is a really bleak thing to add to Star Wars, we could have had a thousand themes that what have worked better in this universe, but I didn't make the movie. We have to live with it.
     
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  4. Kylocity

    Kylocity Rebel Official

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    For me the main execution problem was luke’s position about the Jedi at the end of the film, does he still think they need to end or not? RJ managed to make it really confusing by making Luke say “I’m not the last Jedi”. With more viewings I understood that what Yoda made Luke realise is that the Jedi as an institution should die but the spirit of the Jedi should prevail. Maybe RJ could have made this a bit clearer. I also feel that some moments in the island were wasted with regards to developing Luke and Rey’s relationship.

    Also, I think the social commentary in canto bight could have been told better, it was all too general and simplistic. It just didn’t sit well with the pace and style. DJ was in principke a very interesting character but benicio’s acting was a bit too distracting. That stutter was a complete fail IMO.

    There were comedy moments that fell flat, others that were brilliant. In that sense it was uneven. I was expecting something more in line with TFA re pacing and fluidity, so when I saw TLJ for the first time I was a bit confused. I enjoyed it but didn’t completely get it. There was a lot in it and I felt RJ’s ambition, which I liked, but something in me wished there had been a bigger hand putting order in the whole thing. However, after viewing the film several times I have learnt to love it with its imperfections.

    As for outcomes, I’m happy with everything. It all makes sense to me, which is the most important thing.
     
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  5. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Jedi General

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    I'll also say, I wasn't all that impressed with the execution of the execution scene with Phasma and Finn. ;)

    The cut alternate scene sounds pretty interesting though.
     
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  6. Bandini

    Bandini Jedi Commander

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    Speaking about execution, some minor things but when Rey is meeting Luke, he faced her all along. In TFA, when she stops, Luke didn't have turn around yet.

    I mean, you're a director, you're the EYE, how can't you see the two scenes are different ? Why nobody told the director it was a jump cut ?

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]



    Canto Bight ...

    They're saving the animals and they don't give a damn about the slave kids ...

    There's a real lack of coordination in this work.

    If I had to describe this movie with one word, I'll say : lazy.
     
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  7. Dr Jerrone

    Dr Jerrone Rebel Commander

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    My favorite exercise since TLJ came out is ask someone who doesn't like the film if it's a problem with outcome or execution and then have them give a solution that would be better than what they saw on screen. It always sounds like badly written fan fiction.

    I'll give an example of a small execution problem I had. When Luke throws the saber away it makes perfect sense. He doesn't care about the status of the saber or anything it stands for which makes perfect sense to me and I enjoy. My problem with the execution of the scene is him actually throwing it over his shoulder. It makes the scene play for a joke rather than the intended effect. If he simply drops it and walks away it gives the same effect without the attempt at humor.
     
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  8. Bandini

    Bandini Jedi Commander

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    Execution once again :

    We have this scene beautifully shot where Luke is trying to train Rey and Rey says : Light, Darkness and there's something else, big teasing of the island dark side cave and Luke almost in panic saying : NOOOO REY !!! RESIST IT REY !! REYYYYYYYYYYYY !

    He's like begging her to not confront the challenge because you know it sounds incredibly dangerous and then she goes there ! ( TADA !!! Big moment coming !!!! )

    First she swims ( ???!!!! ) and then we have this mirror scene where there is absolutely no danger, nothing revealed and nothing happened.

    I was in my sit asking myself why Master Luke was warning her so much for that ?!! Weird execution.

    __________________________________

    We have this cute scene where Rey is feeling the rain like it is the first time but ... too bad it was already raining when she followed fishing Luke ... ( yes, fishing Luke because the director felt it was better for us to see him fishing than showing us his face when he knew about Han's death ( ??!! ) ... )

    And so on ...

    This is many coordination mistakes for a block buster.
     
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  9. AfraidFool

    AfraidFool Rebel Trooper

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    Thank you to the people who understood the point of this thread.

    In my eye it is not possible to have a problem with both the Execution AND the Outcome because they are linked.
    If you disliked the Outcome and the Execution then that would mean, to me, that you disliked the outcome. For the sake of this poll at least.


    To the other few people who apparently didn't watch the movie. Thank you come again.
     
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  10. Dr Jerrone

    Dr Jerrone Rebel Commander

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    You do know it rains in the desert right? It can be assumed that Jakku has rain fall because it has an atmosphere. You do realize that right? Who told you that was her first time feeling rain? Furthermore, who told you that was her first time swimming? You seem to have a pretty big issue with that as well. She was left on the planet around age 7. Is it impossible to you that she learned to swim at any point before that?
     
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  11. nightangel

    nightangel Rebel Official

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    I dislike ReyLo in any way, so the outcome. I did dislike the execution of Luke beeing reluctant and dying. So yes, both is possible.
     
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  12. Bandini

    Bandini Jedi Commander

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    We will agree to disagree there I have no problem with Luke dying for example but the execution once again is weirdly done.

    Besides the fact that Luke is letting his people down during the whole movie even after seeing them by himself ( Artoo, Chewie ), his whole life and journey became pointless with the execution.

    Luke saved the galaxy, he overcame the empire, took down the emperor with the help of his father, redempting the unredemptable against all odds bringing peace to a wounded galaxy and then he died by letting the galaxy is the same state before he started his journey as a farmer and HE IS WHY THE EMPIRE IS BACK and he doesn't care at all.

    Ep IV should be named now : a deceiptive hope.

    That is ( for me ) why execution and outcomes are not that linked.

    You could have made Master Luke dying without destroying the meaning of his journey as a whole.
    --- Double Post Merged, Mar 6, 2018, Original Post Date: Mar 6, 2018 ---
    Nah, ep VIII said her parents were from Jakku ... Junkdealers who sold her for booze.

    I'm OK that she already saw the rain ( nothing to do with swim btw ) so what is the point of that scene ?

    I'm actually commenting the movie, I didn't chose to include this scene in the final cut.
     
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  13. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Jedi General

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    I appreciate the attempts at scientific accuracy, but I'm not sure Star Wars adheres to those rules.

    At the same time, I get where you're coming from. We're never explicitly told that this is the first time she's seeing rain/swimming, right?
     
  14. Dr Jerrone

    Dr Jerrone Rebel Commander

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    Incorrect, they died on Jakku. It can be assumed they were on Jakku when they sold Rey. Anything beyond that is you putting your spin on the film or films. If you believe otherwise please provide a quote.

    The reason for including the rain probably has more to do with showing her and Kylo both experiencing the rain. Although, I'm in the same boat as you I didn't write the movie.
    --- Double Post Merged, Mar 6, 2018, Original Post Date: Mar 6, 2018 ---
    Correct on the last point.

    What point of the science are you referring to? Jakku is a type I atmosphere so it falls under the same umbrella (pun not intended but totally accepted) as other planets that have rainfall. Before the event that turned the planet into the desert that it is it had water on the planet so it definitely rained at some point prior.
     
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  15. Bandini

    Bandini Jedi Commander

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    Take the swimming down, the whole cave scene is not worth Luke's teasing about it.

    Except if he hates tap dancing.

    Edit : We better not apply science to TLJ :D and I won't intend that.
     
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  16. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Jedi General

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    I'm just saying, look at planets in Star Wars. There are a lot that seemingly apply to a single biome. I think a lot of them would have trouble sustaining life, actually. I'm hardly a scientist, but there's a distinct lack of plant life on both Jakku and Tatooine (not to mention Hoth, Mustafar, and many others). Where would the oxygen come from? What about a gaseous planet like Bespin? Definitely no plant life there, and I'd imagine they're in orbit pretty high in the atmosphere of the planet anyway.

    Again, I appreciate the effort and it is very interesting to consider, but I don't think we can get much information by holding Star Wars planets to scientific standards, unfortunately.
     
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  17. AfraidFool

    AfraidFool Rebel Trooper

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    You post a seemingly objective question about whether or not people would be alright with the movie had it been executed differently with the same ultimate outcomes or not and then everyone starts arguing about whether or not Rey knew how to swim on Jakku...
    SMH
     
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  18. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Jedi General

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    Right, we should probably get back on track...

    I am curious, though- seems a lot of people were mad that Luke dies in the film, at least initially. I wonder if that specific complaint has died down a little after the initial shock, and people are more mad about how the character was handled.
     
  19. AfraidFool

    AfraidFool Rebel Trooper

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    Let me explain why one cannot have a problem with both the execution and the outcome at the same time.

    Problem with Outcomes -
    This person disagrees with the vision they writer/director had - their critiques are out of bias and not against the quality of the movie.

    I would go so far as to say this is a pointless endeavor to critique and why most internet arguments about movies are pointless when based around the outcome.
    If one has a problem with the outcomes then they are saying that the vision and direction the writer/director chose was not theirs, simply a difference of opinion -- this is in no way a valid criticism for quality of film.
    I will never be one to have an issue with the outcome and direction of a movie, I will only have problems with the execution.

    Problem with Execution -
    This person believes there were issues with the mechanics of the film -- things that CAN be objectively judged, to a point.

    If one has a problem with OUTCOMES then there would have been no difference in the execution that could have pleased that person; therefore, the execution is irrelevant to this person.
    If one is to argue that they do have a problem with the OUTCOME and the EXECUTION I believe they are using difference definitions for these words, or have an inconsistent opinion that when picked apart would show contradictions.
     
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  20. Dr Jerrone

    Dr Jerrone Rebel Commander

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    I mean there's plenty of source material to go off of in which characters reference the atmosphere and whether or not you would need masks in order to breathe. There's clearly oxygen on Jakku and at some point in the history of the planet there were plants and bodies of water. I'm not claiming to be a scientist either but science fiction usually follows a similar pattern to what we experience on Earth. The biggest issue with someone wanting to claim that Star Wars shouldn't follow science as we know it is that it's in our same universe. They won't have a completely different biological or meteorological experience just because they're in a different part of it.
     

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