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Execution VS Outcomes

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by AfraidFool, Mar 5, 2018.

?

Did you dislike the movie because of

  1. Execution

    13 vote(s)
    72.2%
  2. Outcomes

    5 vote(s)
    27.8%
  1. Kylocity

    Kylocity Rebel Official

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    This is the time Rey bonds with the dark side, kylo, her enemy. There is no immediate danger but she makes herself vulnerable to the dark. RJ is being very subtle in this scene and yes, it is possible that it is jarring to some people. I personally like what he’s done here. When Luke entered the dark side cave in empire there was fear and ultimately the horror of seeing his own dead face in Vader’s helmet. But Rey’s challenge with the dark side is different. Rey is like Snow White, enticed by the witch with the apple, she is tempted by the softness of someone listening to her, to her turmoil. Luke had to confront Vader and his feelings about the “I’m your father” reveal in ESB, whereas TLJ Rey had to confront and refuse the approaches of a “defective” suitor.
     
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  2. Bandini

    Bandini Jedi Commander

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    Well, hat off to you if you got this at first time.

    ___

    Two other things crossed my mind.

    The fact that Snoke connected Rey and Snoke and has no clue where Skywalker is ... Like you know ... next to Rey

    Luke fighting with Anakin's lightsaber while Kylo just destroyed it a moment ago and Kylo not having a clue ...

    Rey being in the Falcon just after the saber being destroyed ( like that ... but Chewie eating porgs made the final cut ... )

    The list is so long ... Unfortunately.
     
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  3. Kylocity

    Kylocity Rebel Official

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    No. During my first viewing I just enjoyed that part. I was with Rey, and wondered if she was being wise trusting kylo, since although he seemed totally in tune with her in that moment he was also quite unreadable. I made the comparison after seeing the film another time.
     
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  4. AfraidFool

    AfraidFool Rebel Trooper

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    YOU: Besides the fact that Luke is letting his people down during the whole movie even after seeing them by himself ( Artoo, Chewie ), his whole life and journey became pointless with the execution.
    ME:
    What movie did you watch? It wasn't TLJ

    YOU: Luke saved the galaxy, he overcame the empire, took down the emperor with the help of his father, redempting the unredemptable against all odds bringing peace to a wounded galaxy and then he died by letting the galaxy is the same state before he started his journey as a farmer and HE IS WHY THE EMPIRE IS BACK and he doesn't care at all.
    ME:
    Luke Redeemed Vader? Interesting...
    Luke is the reason the empire is back? Interesting that you find Luke responsible for other people's actions.
    And he doesn't care at all? Again, what movie did you watch?

    YOU: That is ( for me ) why execution and outcomes are not that linked.
    ME:
    What lol...
    well ( for you ) you don't make any sense at all sir. You seem to be flip flopping between morality and movie making with your post.
     
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  5. Bandini

    Bandini Jedi Commander

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    Who tried to kill Ben Solo during his sleep ?

    That leads to the new empire, the new emperor's name is ... wait for it ... Ben Solo.



    You're right. You and me didn't see the same movie.
     
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  6. AfraidFool

    AfraidFool Rebel Trooper

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    :) alright then.

    Luke didn't try to Kill Ben Solo in TLJ
     
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  7. Benjamin Lewis

    Benjamin Lewis Rebel Official

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    I love how every attempt at a sensible discussion on the film (whether by a fan or not) gets derailed by rants containing crap that doesnt apply to the film at all. Cool.
     
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  8. AfraidFool

    AfraidFool Rebel Trooper

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    Luke being reluctant and dying are outcomes not execution.........

    EDIT: unless you mean the execution of those outcomes specifically. In which case I would ask you to elaborate on what specific executions you thought were poor.
     
    #48 AfraidFool, Mar 6, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2018
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  9. Bandini

    Bandini Jedi Commander

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    There is 2 months, you're quoting me everytime with bad ratings, I have to say that the interest you put in me is not reciprocal.


    Yes, being awaken by your master with a lightsaber in your tent is a very common jedi challenge.

    That was definitely something Luke Skywalker would do.
     
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  10. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi General

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    Let's all chant this together in unison:

    STAR WARS IS A FAIRY TALE. STAR WARS IS A FAIRY TALE. STAR WARS IS A FAIRY TALE. STAR WARS IS A FAIRY TALE. STAR WARS IS A FAIRY TALE.

    It is a series aimed at children. Namely 12 yr old boys and girls. Does every little thing have to be explained? Do we need exposition for everything? We know Rey had a locator for the falcon to find her. We know she took Snoke's own ship to escape. Why on earth do we need to be shown that? It would literally add nothing. It would be dull. Nothing within showing that happen would provide any development to Rey's character. Thus we don't need to see it. On the other hand, seeing Chewie with the porgs added a good dose of humour to the film - humour that the 12 yr olds would enjoy and soften the dark bits of the film. What's more, it's kind of nice to see Chewie in any capacity after Han's demise. We can see that he is grieving but carrying on. There then isn't a massive jump from him being sad after Han's death to being happy with Rey in the falcon.

    As for the other things - again, are we going to have to explain every little detail? Can't you just fill the gaps? Snoke could only bridge minds, he couldn't use it as a gps. And Kylo was knocked unconscious when the saber broke apart so he might not have know it exploded. And even if he did, he was too mad and blinded by his rage to notice Luke had it later. His lack of awareness reflected his mindset.

    But again:

    STAR WARS IS A FAIRY TALE. STAR WARS IS A FAIRY TALE. STAR WARS IS A FAIRY TALE. STAR WARS IS A FAIRY TALE. STAR WARS IS A FAIRY TALE.
     
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  11. Bandini

    Bandini Jedi Commander

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    Well, we went from brilliant masterpiece to hey, it's a movie for kids which has been written during the 1st one so they are full excuses to explain how brilliant it is !

    We're moving ! Slowly but we're moving.
     
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  12. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi General

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    A kids movie can still be a masterpiece. The point I am making is that a fairy tale isn't designed to be scientifically accurate or even make much literal sense. It's metaphorical and far more about the message, moral tale and emotional impact. Judge The Last Jedi by that. Not by these silly little details or so called "plot holes".

    Feel. Don't think. So to speak.
     
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  13. Kylocity

    Kylocity Rebel Official

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    The point of this thread was not to say TLJ was a brilliant masterpiece. It was about evaluating its worth. The question that can be raised after reading the posts above is: does it work in spite of its imperfections? For some it does, for you definetly it doesn’t as you have made very clear.

    I have pointed out some problems with execution in TLJ but the task of coming up with solutions to these problems is not an easy one. I have tried. (if they were real problems in the first place, of which I’m not sure as some of these impressions are fairly subjective). Decisions about something small in a film may have repercutions in other parts of the film for all I know. It must be a tricky process for a director to come up with the right choices and I would no dare to take all that work for granted. Furthermore, I think it would be wise of anyone to display a good dose of humility when disecting the work of someone with the unquestionable experience and talent RJ has, unless they have just as much experience in the directorial chair themselves and would feel more than able to take RJ’s place. Just an observation.
     
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  14. Bandini

    Bandini Jedi Commander

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    That's what I did during the whole thread trying to dodge personnal attacks.

    But you are wise, I shouldn't answer them.
     
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  15. Pawek_13

    Pawek_13 Jedi General

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    [​IMG]
     
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  16. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Jedi General

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    Exactly. Take the universally acclaimed movie Toy Story. Clearly a masterpiece.

    But what happens when we start trying to make too much sense of it? At what point does a toy's life begin? Are they really sentient plastic, and have they been stewing in some primordial soup as dinosaur remains for hundreds of thousands (if not more) years? Will they live forever, unable to decompose or die? What happens when, like in Sid's house, multiple toys are put together: do each of the toys' sensory inputs act independently of each other, or does the "head" toy assume full control? What qualifies what toys come alive?: Do LEGOS count? If so, the bricks too, or just the minifigs? Do other objects also come alive? If so, just stuff that resembles humans, like Garden Gnomes and department store mannequins, or everything, such as flower pots and televisions?

    Start doing that, and Toy Story becomes a horror movie at best, and an existential crisis at worst.

    So, a much as I love to take this series seriously, you're right. "Star Wars is a fairy tale", and sometimes we just have to have a suspension of disbelief.
     
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  17. Benjamin Lewis

    Benjamin Lewis Rebel Official

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    I wouldn't view them as personal attacks, but rather people taking issue with you methods of posting.

    You have a habit of derailing otherwise intelligent discussions in two ways:

    1. Posting in the form of angry/sarcastic rants.
    2. Presenting false facts.

    For example, your post that I just quoted. I do not quote and rate you "everytime." The percentage of yours posts that I take the time to do those things on is incredibly minute. I know we're supposed to always address the post and not the poster, but I stronlgy feel the need to do so when you demean others, present false information, or seriously derail good conversation.

    The creator of this thread does not like TLJ. In fact, he hates it. I like TLJ. Yet here we are, attempting to have an intelligent discussion on certain aspects of the film, despite our differences. Take notes, @Bandini.

    Now, in an attempt to get back on topic, here's a detail in the film concerning poor execution, that I think exemplifies some of the other/larger issues with the film.

    During the battle of Crait, Poe exclaims that the Falcon lured away all of the TIE fighters. Then Finn yells "They hate that ship!" To me, Finn's line was incredibly awkward. It disrupted the flow of the moment badly, and it was basically a look-into-the-camera-and-deliver-a-wink-wink-fan-service-moment. I cringed. Everything about the line, and the shot, was awkward to me.

    Possible change in execution to make things flow better? Have Poe deliver his line, and then over the radio/communicators, hear Finn say his line while the action/scene continues. No disrupting the pacing and bringing things to a halt to deliver a fan service line.

    Just my two cents.
     
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  18. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi General

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    I find myself agreeing with a lot of your suggestions and a number of other people's ideas as well. But I think that is the nature of every film. I'm a videographer/editor myself and as with most filmmakers find that I could literally work on a film forever, making improvements here and there. And I always look back and think "ahhh, why did I do that?!" or "I should've flipped these shots". At some point you have to just give it up. And so, when we over-analyse other films as we do Star Wars, we come up with ways to take the great work of the filmmaker and make suggestions of how to improve it. It's even easier when the filmmaker has created something great. I've done it with every Star Wars film: "It would've been great if Anakin did this", or "They should've used that music there". Sometimes, the idea is subjective and wouldn't make a difference. Sometimes, it would've obviously been better. But all we're doing is moving around the pieces of the puzzle laid down by the creator to the best of their ability within a strict timeframe. And it strikes me, most of the time, they're little nitpicky things that don't impact upon the larger film or what the filmmaker was trying to put across. It's incredibly hard to make a great film. A lot of things have to come together. I imagine that it's exponentially harder to make a great Star Wars film that has to meet the off the scale expectations of its audience. And so to those giving RJ a hard time because he didn't explain how Rey could swim, or because he told one joke too many...cut him some slack, sit back and enjoy seeing Luke Skywalker on screen again, Rey and Kylo fighting side by side, Chewie piloting the Falcon like a Goddamn legend and Yoda teaching us to CHILL THE FLIP OUT!
     
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  19. AfraidFool

    AfraidFool Rebel Trooper

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    BACK ON TOPIC, I DON'T WANT NITPICKS - I WANT SPECIFIC OUTCOMES OR EXECUTIONS YOU DIDN'T LIKE

    Another example of execution I didn't like --
    Hell, lets start with the opening scene, the outcome was Poe being demoted by Leia.
    I felt the execution of nearly every part of that was poor. I'll list a few things I didn't like.

    -His mission was actually successful, why the demotion? (I've seen many counter arguments, don't try to change my mind)
    -Your mom joke
    -Surface cannon's that, by design, cannot hit him. Even though that's what surface cannon's do and have done for all Star Wars eternity
    -BB8 Whack-a-mole. Droids have fixed ships countless times in Star Wars during battle / I didn't like this take on it at all.
    Thats the majority of it.

    However, one of the outcomes of the scene was to have Poe demoted which I felt didn't flow after the execution.
    --- Double Post Merged, Mar 7, 2018, Original Post Date: Mar 7, 2018 ---
    Still not seeing the part where Luke tried to kill Ben Solo.
    Post more evidence pls.
     
  20. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Jedi General

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    Wasn't in love with the BB-8 walker scene. I wouldn't have minded if BB-8 was inside of a walker and hacked it, or even if he was remotely controlling multiple walkers somehow, but the way the cockpit came out all around him just looked odd.

    I imagine it was to sell toys like this
    [​IMG]


    And I'm all for Star Wars selling toys to kids (I loved collecting them as a child) but i just feel like this was a scenario where the movie didn't have to match exactly what the toy was going to look like.

    For example, this AT-AT was adapted as a toy to be more child-friendly... by adding a gun. :p
    [​IMG]

    Whatever the reason, that's obviously not how AT-ATs were in ESB.

    So I guess I have a problem with the execution of that scene. Wouldn't have minded BB-8 taking control of a walker, but I didn't love how they showed it.
     
    #60 cawatrooper, Mar 7, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018
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