1. Notification emails are working properly again. Please check your email spam folder and if you see any emails from the Cantina there, make sure to mark them as "Not Spam". This will help a lot to whitelist the emails and to stop them going to spam.
    Dismiss Notice
  2. IMPORTANT! To be able to create new threads and rate posts, you need to have at least 30 posts in The Cantina.
    Dismiss Notice
  3. Before posting a new thread, check the list with similar threads that will appear when you start typing the thread's title.
    Dismiss Notice

Execution VS Outcomes

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by AfraidFool, Mar 5, 2018.

?

Did you dislike the movie because of

  1. Execution

    13 vote(s)
    72.2%
  2. Outcomes

    5 vote(s)
    27.8%
  1. Bandini

    Bandini Jedi Commander

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2015
    Posts:
    4,846
    Likes Received:
    5,499
    Trophy Points:
    87,267
    Credits:
    8,912
    Ratings:
    +10,212 / 457 / -128
    You can interpret this as you wish but the dude who puts the video has the same view as mine.




    And I guess it is the horrible truth we were supposed to learn about after they teased about it way before the movie came out.
     
    • Great Post Great Post x 1
    • Clouded Clouded x 1
  2. AfraidFool

    AfraidFool Rebel Trooper

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2018
    Posts:
    82
    Likes Received:
    120
    Trophy Points:
    187
    Credits:
    357
    Ratings:
    +235 / 16 / -11
    If you continue to "interpret" fact then your arguments will never have any merit.

    Luke did not try to kill Ben Solo in TLJ - that is a fact.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Funny Funny x 2
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  3. Bandini

    Bandini Jedi Commander

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2015
    Posts:
    4,846
    Likes Received:
    5,499
    Trophy Points:
    87,267
    Credits:
    8,912
    Ratings:
    +10,212 / 457 / -128
    What was the horrible truth then ? That Yoda hates trees ?

    We will have to rename this vid :

    Uncle Luke guards Lil' Benny during sleep and he's making a sweet light for him not to be afraid in the dark ! :D

    BTW, if different people could have such a difference of interpretation with a scene in a movie, that's what I call a big problem of execution.

    If there's a poll about this, I'm not sure I'll be the only one to vote yes, Luke tried to kill Ben and as far as I remember, I didn't have forks in my eyes during the movie ( and believe me, I wish I had ).
     
    #63 Bandini, Mar 7, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018
    • Disagree Disagree x 3
  4. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Jedi General

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2016
    Posts:
    4,068
    Likes Received:
    17,312
    Trophy Points:
    145,167
    Credits:
    16,839
    Ratings:
    +21,416 / 62 / -37
    I think it's possible to reconcile the idea that Luke had a moment of weakness but ultimately did not try to kill Kylo with the fact that in a way that misunderstanding still makes Luke arguably responsible for Ben Solo's fall. Or, at the very least, that Luke sees himself as responsible.

    I'd say that's a pretty horrible truth.
     
    • Like Like x 3
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  5. Benjamin Lewis

    Benjamin Lewis Rebel Official

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2015
    Posts:
    669
    Likes Received:
    1,524
    Trophy Points:
    6,567
    Credits:
    2,545
    Ratings:
    +2,688 / 76 / -50
    Nowhere in that scene does Luke try to kill Ben Solo. Move on.

    I agree with recent comments on BB-8 in TLJ. A friend of mine described his role in the film as "gags for the kids." Not good.

    In TFA, he was both likeable (including for kids), AND had purpose.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  6. Bandini

    Bandini Jedi Commander

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2015
    Posts:
    4,846
    Likes Received:
    5,499
    Trophy Points:
    87,267
    Credits:
    8,912
    Ratings:
    +10,212 / 457 / -128
    Because it doesn't fit with Luke's character or because it doesn't fit the scene ?

    Whatever ...

    Leia in space ? Execution or outcome ?

    Except if finally someone tells me that as a fact, Leia wasn't flying in space.
     
  7. AfraidFool

    AfraidFool Rebel Trooper

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2018
    Posts:
    82
    Likes Received:
    120
    Trophy Points:
    187
    Credits:
    357
    Ratings:
    +235 / 16 / -11
    Leia was not flying in space. She was floating - and force pulled herself in zero gravity to safety.

    I would say it is definately execution, I had big problems with this in the movie.
    The outcome I suppose was to show Leia was very force sensitive and to be temporarily removed from the movie.

    I hated the execution for many reasons.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  8. Bandini

    Bandini Jedi Commander

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2015
    Posts:
    4,846
    Likes Received:
    5,499
    Trophy Points:
    87,267
    Credits:
    8,912
    Ratings:
    +10,212 / 457 / -128
    English is not my native language so my vocabulary isn't as rich as other people here.
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  9. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Jedi General

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2016
    Posts:
    4,068
    Likes Received:
    17,312
    Trophy Points:
    145,167
    Credits:
    16,839
    Ratings:
    +21,416 / 62 / -37
    You're fine, even a lot of native speakers have complained about her "flying".

    I'm inclined to agree with @AfraidFool on this one- it's not that weird that she was pulling herself through space (especially in a series that wields space and zero g with a liberal understanding of them). It did look kind of strange, though. A minor complaint from me, but I wouldn't have minded a slightly better execution.

    That being said, I think a lot of people really overreacted to that.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  10. Kylocity

    Kylocity Rebel Official

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2017
    Posts:
    1,086
    Likes Received:
    2,484
    Trophy Points:
    7,817
    Credits:
    3,537
    Ratings:
    +3,419 / 31 / -16
    Yeah, that really wasn’t great. It wasn’t a bad idea, but it just looked odd. I loved Leia’s gowns in the film but in that scene they didn’t work with that posture. Maybe if her moving towards the ship had been caused by her thoughts, with Carrie acting with her eyes instead of sticking that silly hand out, it would have been much better.
     
    #70 Kylocity, Mar 7, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018
    • Like Like x 1
  11. Sparafucile

    Sparafucile Guest

    Credits:
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0
    Mostly execution.

    I'm writing this before I read the comments below.

    I did not have expectations with Snoke... until RJ trolled his bit that fan theories about him sucked. Then I was under the impression he had something very unexpected and grande in store... which he didn't. He had nothing. I didn't mind him dying, that was a surprise, but there was no character development. Actually, fans had a far greater imagination about Snoke than RJ did. RJ could have done almost anything that would have been improved on Snoke after his comment.

    As for the rest, I thought Rey was a Skywalker, but half expected it could be anything else. I wasn't invested. I expected Luke to be grumpy and his overall personality was more or less on par for what I expected, I just didn't expect the whole murder my child nephew in his sleep bit, which to me was distasteful and inconsistent with a Luke wanting to mentor kids into becoming a new order of Jedi.
     
  12. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Jedi General

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2016
    Posts:
    3,785
    Likes Received:
    11,859
    Trophy Points:
    142,767
    Credits:
    12,310
    Ratings:
    +16,452 / 294 / -95
    In the Return of the Jedi, Darth Vader discovers that Leia is his daughter and it angers Luke. Luke channels that anger until the point where he contemplates killing his own father for the briefest moment and then stops. 25 years later Luke sees a darkness in his nephew that will lead the destruction of everything he loves and again he contemplates killing a relative. Again the moment passes, but it's too late because Ben wakes up.

    I don't see the inconsistency here. Luke didn't become a perfect person after the Battle of Endor.
     
    • Like Like x 3
    • Great Post Great Post x 1
  13. Sparafucile

    Sparafucile Guest

    Credits:
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0
    I'm sure we've both read the arguments on both sides, and if by this point neither of us are swayed, we likely won't be unless something dramatic happens in EPIX on the subject (which I doubt). To meet you half way, Luke thinking it I could have accepted. Him walking with his lightsaber into the child's room and igniting it was over the top for me.

    With Vader there was much more pressure and as a young man, he'd naturally be more impulsive. He was in enemy territory, he could see the rebel fleet trapped, and knew his sister and friends were trapped on Endor too. Different set of circumstances imo. Vader had killed thousands (if not more) including the whole of the Jedi order (crimes and atrocities committed, not just the possibility that is always in motion). In RotJ, he was in a position where he probably couldn't see a way where he'd walk out of it alive. He didn't have that pressure (at least not in the explanation we got in TLJ) with his nephew.

    I can see Luke failing Ben by disbanding the entire Jedi Academy due to Ben's darkness because he, Luke, doubted and feared what Ben would become. I can see Luke doing a lot of things that could have propelled Ben to Kylo, but not what was seen in TLJ. There were more plausible ways to explain imo.

    Again though, I'm sure you've heard it all before, so we'll likely have to agree to disagree.
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 2
    • Like Like x 1
    • Great Post Great Post x 1
  14. Bandini

    Bandini Jedi Commander

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2015
    Posts:
    4,846
    Likes Received:
    5,499
    Trophy Points:
    87,267
    Credits:
    8,912
    Ratings:
    +10,212 / 457 / -128
    Poe attacking a star destroyer alone ?

    Execution / Outcome ?
     
  15. greenbalrog

    greenbalrog Rebel General

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2016
    Posts:
    222
    Likes Received:
    503
    Trophy Points:
    4,072
    Credits:
    967
    Ratings:
    +651 / 1 / -1
    Something feels off regarding Luke and Ben's confontation to me too. However, after rationalizing it a bit (and after watching the movie four times already), it does make sense, but only if you entertain the thought. Luke says he went to "confront" Ben. "I went to confront him." - Luke says. To me that means those two already had quite some bagage between them, but his initial idea would not be to confront him in like for a light saber duel type of thing. I take it that Luke went to confront Ben in the sense of talking it through and possibly dismiss him from the school or something in those lines. To lecture him and perhaps try to clear things up, or to simply expel him out.

    Then, we see Luke telling Rey that in the moment he entered the tent he sensed great evil and a very dark future ahead of him, to say the least. This is a problem for the Jedi, because they see one future and think that may be what will happen. But, as the wisest of them says, "always in motion the future is". We have to guess Luke didn't learn that lesson too.

    Then, after contemplating the horror and in a moment of weakness, where he was not able to handle his emotions, he fired up his lightsaber in order to strike him down, in a preemptive way, to stop that future, and in fact ending up causing it. That was Luke's failure. Then, Ben woke up. He saw his master wielding a light saber at him (in his tent) and it's understandable for him to have snapped, again because there was clearly conflict between them already.

    Did I get this at first showing? No. Was I happy with how this particular scene worked in my first viewing and the next? Not at all.

    However, as you can see, I can rationalize it now, after my fourth viewing and kind of accept it. I'm not too happy but I can at least understand it.

    So, to me, personally, the problem with this pivotal scene is both one of outcome and execution. Outcome, in the sense that while I understand the scene I don't like it very much. I would have prefered for Luke to have failed Ben in some other way, in a more open way. Perhaps Luke could have done (or hadn't done) something to a close friend of Ben's because the Jedi code demanded it / or forbid it. Perhaps Luke was becoming too rigid and grumpy due to old age, or too authoritarian (and this would fit TLJ's theme quite nicely). However, I can't come up with something, and I will not pretend to have better ideas than Rian, but that particular tent scene didn't work for me.

    Could have it worked better if the execution was done differently? Perhaps it would have worked better for many, myself included, if the scene was not about going to a tent where Ben was sleeping, but more in an open conflict where the two would be arguing about something and then Ben could have told something that could have enraged Luke, something about the past perhaps. This could have triggered rage in Luke (that we know he had, and would still had). So, the execution could have worked better if it was Luke going nuts over some trigger, possibly perpetrated by Snoke. That or perhaps we could have had a flashback where we could see the two fighting over something key, to make it obvious the two were on the edge.

    So, no I didn't enjoy that scene much and I still have issues with it. I like TLJ, but the way Luke was portrayed and the way Ben turned, were not totally convincing to me, and so I can understand why it was not for others as well. Some of us liked it, others didn't. I'm afraid we'll just have to accept that.
     
    #75 greenbalrog, Mar 8, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2018
    • Like Like x 2
  16. Benjamin Lewis

    Benjamin Lewis Rebel Official

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2015
    Posts:
    669
    Likes Received:
    1,524
    Trophy Points:
    6,567
    Credits:
    2,545
    Ratings:
    +2,688 / 76 / -50
    Did you mean:

    Poe clearing out some turrets so the ENTIRE RESISTANCE FLEET could attack a destroyer?

    Because that on its own is not an issue.

    Some might take issue with certain executions in the scene, though. BB8's antics, Poe/Hux dialogue, etc.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  17. Legend Knight

    Legend Knight Force Sensitive

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2014
    Posts:
    1,221
    Likes Received:
    3,970
    Trophy Points:
    13,829
    Credits:
    6,652
    Ratings:
    +5,229 / 78 / -28
    Both where terrible.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Funny Funny x 1

Share This Page