Figuring out why I dislike TLJ.

This is the heart of the issue for you, isn't it? This is also the part of TLJ that worked the least for me. Luke.

I do understand where Rian was going with this, and I appreciate the underlining lesson on failure, learning from your mistakes and getting back on the saddle. I get all that. BUT, the execution was not done properly in my opinion, and as you say, Rian should have realized the effect and responsability of what he was doing by giving us this depressed and bitter Luke, being him such an iconic and beloved character.

In other words, I'm not against the idea of a depressed, guiltful and changed Luke. However, I feel that what was given to us was not convincing enough. Not because it couldn't have happened, but because such a change in character should have required a stronger reason, more convincing motives and a bit more back story of why Luke was so full of guilt, why he had lost all hope and why was he in that particular island to begin with. Without that information to fill the gap we were left a bit on the air and it's understandable that this has left many of us old fans without recognizing Luke, feeling like our mentor or hero has abandoned us, and feeling sad because of that. Yes, the ending tries to amend that to some extent, but it came a bit too late and felt a bit forced in my opinion.

And, this was not the first time a dear pupil had turned on his master and went do evil things either. Ben turned with the strong influence of Snoke (even Leia knew this), and he destroyed Luke's new generation of Jedi just like his grandfather Anakin turned on his master with the strong influence of the Emperor and helped destroy the entire Jedi Order. And while that has upset and made Obi-Wan extremelly sad, to see his pupil lost to Palpatine (and help destroy the entire Jedi Order!), we don't get the feeling Obi-Wan has lost all hope. He was watching over Luke for when the time was right. Luke on the other hand took this to a completely new level and a bit inexplicably just decided to abandon everyone to their fate, lost all hope and just wanted to die.

And besides of all of this, Luke was still clinging, on the Jedi books, and on his own life. He couldn't do it. After all those years, he was still in doubt of what the right thing to do was. He was convinced by Rey and then by Yoda that he should accept the past and move on to do the right thing, or so I understood. So, he required the presence of the force itself "incarnated" (Rey) and Yoda (the grandest Jedi master in ghost form with god-like powers) to convince him to do the right thing. We mere mortals don't have the luxury of having this kind of mystical apparitions telling us what to do. In other words, Luke (if he were a mortal, personifying us) required this kind of god-like advice to get back on the saddle. In my opinion, our hero should not have required two super heroes to let him know what the right thing to do should be. Luke, our hero, should have sufficied.

In sum, I think the idea of depressed and bitter Luke has merit and it worked to an extent but it could have been made much better, IF it were done with more care. Stronger motives should have been presented, like a clearer link between Ben's downfall and Luke's responsability on this fate. We were told Luke snapped and Ben saw him next to him with a lightsaber turned on, and this made Ben turn and Luke lose hope. This was not convincing enough, in my opinion. Also, clear reasons should have been presented of why was Luke on that particular island, and leave at least the doubt that he was there because he still had hope to make things right, to maybe find some old piece of wise information or some artifact to help turn the tide.

But no. By what was presented, Luke just gave up. This was the problem in my opinion. Luke should have never give up, especially by what we knew of him. In the pressure of the moment Luke could have snapped, for sure, but with a lot of years to think it over, Luke would always make the right call by himself. We all need to keep the hope and never give up, and Luke was the symbol of that.

Thanks for sharing your story Sparafucile. I can relate and understand why you feel about the movie the way you do. While my parents did not divorce and I have only fond memories of my late father I can tell you that there's nothing wrong with you, or how you feel about the movie. Luke should have been addressed with more care in TLJ, especially for us old timers. We all need heroes (more than super heroes, but that's another discussion) that although can and will definitely make mistakes, they never, ever give up and always keep the hope to make things right. That was what Luke was for me. In that regard, and while I enjoyed watching the movie in theaters twice I cannot help to feel mixed about TLJ, especially on how Luke was handled.

 

Do we really need another "I hate TLJ" thread? You could have easily put your topic in there.

 

I think we do Andrew, because this one addresses a single issue (the main central one in my opinion), of why TLJ fell short to some people. It's about Luke and why some feel disconnected with TLJ. I didn't interpret this thread as general feelings of hate towards the movie due to many reasons, but more a personal search of the single reason why one may dislike the movie and don't know exactly why, and why that may be important and key.

 

I also think this thread is very good. I can relate very much to your story @Sparafucile . I did not face divorce, but illness of my parents that dominated my whole childhood. Both my parents were older when I was born and very early on my mother faced different symptoms that were difficult to treat. She faced problems to walk and speak, had heart problems etc. It was still a time in which diagnosis was not so good as now. It took many doctors, hospitals and tons of money (that we did not really have) to find out that her main issue is Alsheimer. At that time, the illness was already very bad. My father had to do most work to care for her, but he needed my help so I had to stop visiting school. No support of medical care at that time, so we were left alone. After my mother died I could finish school and started studying. At least I had still a few years with my father, until he got ill too. He got diagnosed lung cancer. So I had to stop studying and caring now for my father, until he died too. From then on I was completely alone, only some distant relatives, but they did not really care for me. What has all of this to do with Star Wars? It was a time in which I needed hope and Luke was the person who represented hope. He helped me not to give up at that time.

After this dificult childhood I finished my studies later and found a well payed job after a lot of struggles. I never married or had any children, because I don't want to loose anyone anymore in the way I lost my parents. So in a way I'm closer to the Luke in TLJ now and I realized that's why I hate the message this ST gives us so much. Yes, I realized it is something very personal for me. There is nothing like hope anymore in this story that helps me to go through hard times. I need to find this in other stories than in Star Wars. I cannot relate to my old hero Luke Skywalker anymore!

 

even as a child i knew Luke Skywalker, Jedi Knight was a myth. Luke was aspirational. he was the hero we wanted to be.
i know i always wanted to be Luke but because of the way i grew up i knew i'd always be fighting the Dark.
my great hope was to win more than lose.
i did not win a lot in my early years. it was too hard, but i never gave up hope.
and others never gave up on me.

Johnson's Luke now to me is more relatable than ever.
because now i know he fought the Dark too ~ all of his life.
the same as we probably all do, though some of us more than others (at least those who admit it).

Luke also now reminds me that i have won more than lost over the years, and that the fight is never over.
and more importantly: it's always worth fighting.

why do i defend Ben Solo?
because everyone needs hope.

i have zero illusions: as a child i always wanted to be Luke, but i was Ben Solo.
if i managed to crawl out of the Darkness to become a reasonably responsible and generally unhateful human being, it's because i took hope where i could find it and where others gave it, even when i didn't want to. even when i didn't "deserve" it.

so i will absolutely not deny that to anyone else who needs it.
regardless of whether they are ready to ask for it or ever will be.

Luke taught me that in 1977. for me, nothing has changed with him 40+ years later.
if anything, the inspiration of his goodness is actually more attainable than it ever was.

 

save this hatred for Snoke. he's the one who has manipulated everything (even Luke in this) from the start.

this is true for everybody (though not everyone has the courage to admit it).

and i think those of us who went through this with the PT, can completely relate to this.

 

Hum... I have issues with the movie itself that are not personal.
A lot.
But these are arguments for the other thread and more importantly
I absolutely admit I also have personal issues.

If we are here, it’s because SW is something personal for everyone of us.

And keeping that in mind, would be great.

However, yes.

I had the one moment in my life when instead of fighting those who were hurting me (a lot)
I chose to toss the saber because I realized that was the path to the dark side.

I chose not to become just like them.

I asked myself “how you choose to win, the question is”.
And to me TLJ’s Luke, totally ruined that imagine of ROTJ’s Luke.

At all.

Worst (to me) I don’t think that was needed to make Rey look better.
I believe that’s how they tried to make Kylo more sympathetic.

But I dislike the character of Kylo even more, instead.

Not only as a consequence of what said above.


But mainly because I fundamentally disagree - and I always will - with the
idea itself that your choices are not yours.

I don’t believe in brainwashing.

I don’t think there is not another choice to be make.
No matter what others do to you.

I may respect someone taking the “wrong” decision if he has the courage to
admit that’s his/her choice. If he/she takes the full responsibility of his/her own actions.


But I will never relate and sympathize with crying babies blaming everyone but themselves.
I can’t.

Why? Well, I won’t say because Luke or SW taught me that.
I’d say because many things - and real people - taught me that.
And I may enjoy a story, untill it’s about the crux that free will is.

 

I'm a huge Star Wars. I'm an old fan. I've been to celebration. Star Wars isn't the most important thing in my life. My only requirement for Star Wars is for a competent story in a GFFA. Luke is my favorite character, but I don't own him. I don't even really know him. We saw him for three films when he was in his twenties. I'm not even the same person I was 15 years ago.

I don't have headcanon. Luke is a man. An extraordinary man who rose to the occasion one last time.

 

we all have our own journey and it will always be deeply personal.

i'm glad for people who chose to toss the saber when confronted by the Dark. sincerely and genuinely glad for them. truly.
i didn't toss the saber. not the first time and not the 100th.
not even when i knew it was the right thing to do.
some of us need more time, more hard knocks, and ultimately more grace to learn to make the right choices.

i'm lucky i had people with that kind of necessary patience, persistence, and compassion.
instead of being a psychotic mass-murderer, i'm a relatively productive member of society today because of it. XD
and in a position of opportunity to help others hold fast to hope.

if Luke is ruined for people for not being an imaginary perfect Jedi paradigm, i'm sorry for that.
but i agree with you, @LadyMusashi: he's actually made greater for me for being a real person.
i think the world needs real heroes, not myths. but that's just me.

and yeah, i disagree with others' judgment on the "crying babies" of the world.
ironically so would Luke, but maybe that's part of why people think he's ruined. : D

 

What I dont understand about this is that you knew this was who Luke was in TLJ before even seeing TLJ. What we learned from TFA is we already knew that Luke had failed and ran away. His failure was colossal and the failure had occurred before TFA. He had delayed in starting an academy for new Jedi. He then lost his star pupil and nephew to the dark side. That resulting in either the turning of other students to the dark side or them being slaughtered. This was all before TLJ.

Strange to me that people didnt put this all together before TLJ. He wasnt the happy warrior waiting to get a ride back. He fled his failure and only because people thought they knew where he went was he able to be found. He left his sister and the new republic when they needed him. He was ashamed. This is how he was depicted in TLJ and TLJ was his redemption. He put hope back in the galaxy.

 

I really welcome this post, because I think we may share/discuss our
personal issues (if there are) and that may just help to better understand each
other...

That is why @DailyPlunge ... you’re not only entitled of your own opinion.
Of course you are, as everyone here.
But I also agree.
I mean I don’t think a story belongs to me.
Or that someone own me something.
Or that my “headcanon” has to come true.

I really enjoy to speculate, as you know all to well, but I can’t count
all the times I was wrong, but still enjoyed what I‘ve got.
That’s part of the fun too, at least to me.

In the worst scenario... if something really break a deal - for me - I just
move on.

I pretend (or I can’t care less about) that Gone the Wind sequel doesn’t existe.
Or the Gilmore Girls revival.

I don’t care about any album the Oasis made after Definitely Maybe.
But I’ll leasten to the first two till I die, I think.

And so on...

 

I was not a fan of the portrayal of TLJ Luke at first, in fact I hated it. But the great thing about SW is repeat viewings give you a different perspective.

The thing about Luke is that he is always giving a different perspective about the GFFA to the viewer. In the OT, Yoda and Kenobi want him to kill Darth Vader, Leia wants him to run away. So what’s he do? He throws his lightsaber down as NOBODY saw that coming.

The same goes for ST Luke as he Is the only one in these movies who sees the vicious cycle. Think about it, everyone complains that TFA is a retread of ANH and that is because it is as the vicious cycle has begun again as now it’s Ben Solo. Leia thinks the Resistance can do the trick, Rey thinks Master Skywalker can end it, as the movies are playing out the same way again.

Luke is ahead of the curve and that is why he’s jaded. He’s no different then ANH Luke, he’s just been through the Wars now and he’s see that the GALAXY hasn’t changed along with everyone around it.

Which gets to the ending on Crait and his eventual death, which I hated at first. For him to ‘play’ Kylo Ren like a fiddle triumphs any lightsaber battle they could have drawn up. Luke has always done things differently and Battle of Crait was no different. When he peacefully dies, it was the perfect ending to my favorite character. Would anyone want to see him killed by Kylo or Snoke? No he went out on his own terms just like he’s been doing since ANH.

Trust me guys, I hated TLJ and the portrayal of Luke at first, to the point of almost walking away from the franchise. But time gives perspective, and I love it now.

 

To me is strange to believe that there is only one way to move forward a story,
given some settings.
It really is.
That said, whatever works for you, does.
The point is, there are reasons as to why it may not work for others.
And it’s not that they have to be personal.
They may be, personal too...

 

i know i've been impatient and defensive and even unkind to people here because of the intensity of my personal identification with Ben Solo.
because others' words against him feel like words against me.
i have been told by others here: i'm too dang sensitive.
it's true. because of my past i have to work hard every day not to feel judged.

Star Wars for me has always been about aspiring to be better than our failures.
TLJ just says it more pointedly than any movie before it and for that i love it.
it reminds me that all people, all of life, is fragile. just in different ways.
and that heroism isn't strength or power. it's peace and purpose.

and, well, that Scarlett novel was pure unadulterated horror, so we can agree on that ~ ha! XD

 

Still wondering why so many supporters come to threads were we discuss about disliking this movie? I mean the same people who complain that people who dislike the movie still discuss in other threads like 'hate' threads or even come to this board at all???

Nevertheless for me this version of Luke is that of a delusional real world character who failed in his life. There is nothing inspirational in seeing this onscreen. Or reading in books later how he came to this state. I cannot attach to the new characters as I wished I would be, but it does just not happen. So all of this is just a full mess and shock for me.

 

I kinda feel the same way. I don't own Luke, I don't own Star Wars. I think their are fans, understandably, that love Star Wars just as I do but feel they have a little ownership because they have invested a lot of time into it. It becomes "How dare they give me something that cause me to feel different inside." This isn't MY Luke, MY Luke that I envisioned for so many years. For me, I don't feel any ownership. I read a book, Im transferred to another galaxy. I watch a movie, Im part of that galaxy. Star Wars and Luke isn't part of my world for me to control, in fact, I am part of its world. What its creators give me, is what I get. I have to figure out how and where to incorporate myself in its world, not what they should have done to fit into mine.

For me, Luke was very similar in TLJ as he was left off in ROTJ. The last thing we saw him do was throw his lightsaber down and refuse to fight, to follow the path of violence which led to saving the galaxy. We see Luke doing the same in TLJ. He manged to save his friends and give hope to the galaxy, just as before. The Luke in between had a great burden on his shoulders. The burden of the past and how to follow in its footsteps. They say hindsight is 20/20. Luke tried to restart the Jedi order. But quickly turned down that same path as the PT, at a much quicker rate than Yoda's Jedi order time frame. The new Jedi were gone in less than a 30 year time period. A new evil was unleashed on the galaxy. Luke saw this future and for a brief moment was tempted to do something violent in order to save the galaxy from pain. I feel this would be normal. If Obi Wan had seen the furture, would he have left Anakin on the slopes of Mustafar or would he have been at least tempted to strict the injured man down in a violent to save the galaxy of suffering. I think the latter, he would have been tempted just as Luke.

To me TLJ Luke isn't too far off from ROTJ Luke, we see it in him but we also see a man burden from the failures of the past (not just his but everything that led to the fall of the Jedi order) and he struggled with learning from failure.