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Figuring out why I dislike TLJ.

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by Sparafucile, May 13, 2018.

  1. lealt

    lealt Rebel Official

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    I absolutely understand that you relate with Ben Solo.
    And I respect that.

    My personal take (or my way of thinking) however... it’s not
    that we have to be perfect.
    It’s not that we don’t make bad choices at times.
    Or that human beings don’t hold the right or the strengh
    to change their lives, to atone (if it’s needed), or to change path.

    Quite the contrary.

    That’s why I like Anakin/Vader’s journey, not matter all the flaws the
    prequels have.

    Because I do too believe everyone has and must have a chance.

    But the best way to get it, it’s by figuring out that you always have a choice.
    That’s up to you. Not someone else.
    The moment you figure that, your journey back begins.
    That’s the turning point.
    And of course, it’s not that what follows it’s easy.
    But that’s where it begins. When you make that choice.

    And this is the kind of advice I usually give to friends, if they ask.

    And speaking about peace and purpose, that’s why Iove Obi Wan more than
    anyone else in SW.
    I believe his sacrifice is superior to that of Anakin/Vader too.
    Because that is totally unselfish. Sure more than his.
    And that’s why I’d love to see the Kenobi speen off.

    I can live without it. But I’d love to see it.
    How did he recovered from that huge failure? How did he place
    himself in the position and in the state of mind he is when he meets
    Vader in ANH? Interesting questions to me.

    That to say... I don’t know if I am already out.
    I don’t think.

    I’ll wait and see how it goes.
    I won’t be surprised if others things coming will be a better match
    for me than the ST is until now.
     
  2. Lylo Ren

    Lylo Ren Rebel General

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    Forums are for discussion, whether that be for agreeing or disagreeing.
     
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  3. Kylocity

    Kylocity Rebel Official

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    Thanks to @Sparafucile and others for sharing their stories. I understand why TLJ portrayal of Luke is not as palatable for many as they would have wished. I know that TLJ did not delve into Luke's disappointment with the Jedi or his own battle with the Darkside. However, I think enough information was given for Luke to serve his part in this new story of Rey and Kylo. He is disillusioned, doubts his power as a Jedi master. It is only at the end when he realizes that the downtrodden don't need a Jedi master, but a hero, an inspiration.

    What TLJ showed is something we have always known. That Luke was never meant to be a mentor or a teacher. Luke was never wise and patient like Obi one or Yoda. On the contrary, he was always impulsive, intuitive, pure and brave, but never wise.

    Maybe it is just hard to see that our heroes don't grow old as gracefully as we had hoped... but is that necessarily a bad thing? In the end Luke had an opportunity to show what he was truly good at: Confronting evil, rather than eradicating evil (which is the mistake he made with Kylo)

    I have to disagree with this. If it were that easy... But the truth is that often people are not in a position to make the right choice, to choose freely or even consider there is a choice at all. It could be for many reasons: background, religion, origin, mental health. I think it is more useful to be aware of this and see every case of "wrong choice" as specific.
     
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  4. nightangel

    nightangel Rebel Official

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    And this makes it so hard for me, it leaves Luke as a failure and everything will be given to Rey and maybe even evil Kylo. I would have preferred if they had done it without tricking us with the old characters back into cinema. They could have done random Rey and Kylo 100 years into the future without damaging Luke and the stories that can still be told about him in books. They just destroyed it with this approach.
     
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  5. lealt

    lealt Rebel Official

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    @Kylocity But I haven’t said they are easy. Sometimes they are so hard
    they’re heroic indeed. So, yeah, I can see your point.
    But it’s not that I don’t value other elements such those you listed. I do.
    Really.
    But just because of that I value, enormously, every act that may break
    your chains.
     
  6. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    this is all any of us can do.
    in real life and in Star Wars.

    there a rush to judgment in a lot of people, unfortunately.
    it's true this all may still end badly, but i'm going to continue to live in hope. : D
     
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  7. Kylocity

    Kylocity Rebel Official

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    Yes, people that overcome those obstacles in life are truly exceptional, but what I was mainly implying is that overcoming these difficulties is mostly impossible without a network of understanding and compassion, such as a government that encourages this kind of mindset, schools that teach these values, books and films that expose them too and so on.
     
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  8. LarsSkywalker

    LarsSkywalker Rebel Official

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    How do your kids feel about the sequel trilogy?
     
  9. nightangel

    nightangel Rebel Official

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    not always, I never faced any help in my life and had to fight every day on my own. No help from government, school or even distant relatives. And this constant fighting alone makes you tired sometimes.
     
  10. Kylocity

    Kylocity Rebel Official

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    I know. Nobody should face disproportionate and unfair obstacles on their own. That’s why I think that sending the message of understanding and helping others is a valuable one. I was raised in a free society and had a lot of support and I don’t take any minute of it for granted. I’m always amazed at the bravery of people like yourself that fight or fought against all odds, but I’m also in awe of people who work and fight incessantly for the freedom and wellbeing of others.

    I understand @nightangel your disappointment in the ST. It is true that the old characters were mainly brought back to serve the new stories. I suppose for alternate or new stories you have the expanded universe. I imagine a SW Luke film outside Lucasfilm is impossible to envisage due to copyright issues and do on, but there is plenty of stuff out there written about Luke, Han and Leia you may enjoy. I still watch ANH now and again. Best film ever.
     
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  11. Andrew Waples

    Andrew Waples Jedi General

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    Do note: I would have said the same thing if someone had said "Figuring out why I like TLJ." That's what those threads are for.
     
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  12. Sparafucile

    Sparafucile Guest

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    I have one son, and I don't think he relates to any character of any trilogy lol. I remember trying to watch ANH with him a couple years ago when he was 7 (around the same age I was when I got hooked) and he just drifted away around the Cantina scene. I managed to get him to come back and finish the movie, but it was pretty clear he wanted to do something, anything else lol. A sad daddy moment lol.

    I've tried the cartoons, the PT and nothing. He sat through TFA and TLJ in theaters, but I'm mostly convinced it was because of the popcorn and treats more than anything else. He doesn't like any SW video games either. He doesn't find the spaceships cool or anything lol. He liked BB8 in TFA, but never talked about him after TLJ. He liked Finn after TFA too, but again, no mention of him after TLJ. I think those were the 2 that he identified with the most, but he wasn't crazy about them.

    Alternatively, he watched IW, last weekend, and openly wept at the end. No spoilers here, but he had to talk to me about that movie for about 2 hours afterward to decompress lol. Initially he said he didn't want to watch IW2, but after talking about it, now he can't wait for next year to finish off the story. His favorite characters in Marvel are Spidey, Ironman, Rocket and Groot.
     
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  13. JohnnyL REACTS

    JohnnyL REACTS Rebelscum

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    It all comes back to Luke.

    Too much build up. What they came up with was underwhelming and did a disservice to the character. When Mark tells you he fundamentally disagrees and they have heated discussions about it. Guess what Rian, maybe you should realize you have gone down the wrong path..
     
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  14. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Coramoor

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    When Mark says he was wrong and it's the best film since Empire...
     
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  15. Malus Dagoth

    Malus Dagoth Rebelscum

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    tfw people base their opinions of a film off of the opinions of the actors in said films when they really don't need to
     
  16. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Coramoor

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    I don't think anyone who liked TLJ likes it because of Mark's opinion. However, some people seem to think his initial trepidation with character matters.
     
  17. Malus Dagoth

    Malus Dagoth Rebelscum

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    I'm just referring to his overall opinions, not any particular one that he may have had regarding the film.
     
  18. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    seems like many of the actors had trepidation.
    but many of them are also new to the insanity of making a picture this big and with this crazy a fandom.

    Hamill is an old hat to all of this. i wish he'd tempered his comments a little as the old guard here, but he's still a mensch.
     
  19. Jedi77-83

    Jedi77-83 Force Sensitive

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    Mark Hamill has a million quotes about TLJ, that were very negative at first, then positive when the movie came out, and then negative again (in a more passive aggressive way).

    -Obviously, he didn't like the way they took his character (his original quote of him disagreeing with 100% with Rian Johnson was on Good Morning America back in the spring of 2017), but he is the ultimate professional and did a great job.

    -Obviously, Disney probably told him to knock it off when the movie came off because their goal is for it to make money (Which they had every right to do). So then he reverted saying it was the best movie since Empire.

    -Then once the movie was out, Hamill started to make subtle jabs at the character again (calling him Jake Skywalker, etc).

    -Now you can see he doesn't want to do Episode 9, as he said that it's not the same since Carrie Fisher died and the gang will never get back together. Only time will tell as he will probably have a cameo as a Force Ghost.

    I don't think Mark Hamill should sway anyone's opinion of TLJ because I'm sure there are many actors who disagree with the way their character arc is sometimes in TV and movies, but Hamill has earned enough clot where he can say what he wants at this point in his career. Ford and Fisher were the same way as they always took jabs at Star Wars, heck Ford wanted Solo killed off for 30 years!

    But deep down we all know that Hamill did not like the way Luke was portrayed, as his quote that stuck out to me, "Luke was never a quitter!" And that is the ONLY beef I had with the character in TLJ, in that he quit on Han and Leia sometime between ROTJ and TFA when he went into hiding. I had no problem with him wanting to change or even end the Jedi Order because Luke has always done his thing compared to the way Yoda/Kenobi ran things, but the one thing Luke NEVER did in the OT was leave Han/Leia out to dry, and Hamill and myself think that KK and RJ missed the boat with Luke on that one.
     
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  20. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Coramoor

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    This is very straight forward. It's covered in the great documentary. This idea that Mark was "negative again" is the product of people being manipulated by cleverly edited YouTube videos. People simply believe it because it fits their narrative.
     
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