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Figuring out why I dislike TLJ.

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by Sparafucile, May 13, 2018.

  1. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    The idea of being disillusioned of Luke comes so close to grasping the point of this film.

    So, you don't like how Luke is an imperfect person in The Last Jedi?
    [​IMG]



    That's the point of the film!

    You've got the whole Resistance looking for him to bring him back, and the whole First Order looking for him to kill him (presumably). Basically, the entire galaxy is looking for Luke Skywalker.

    But they're looking for legends. The true man that is Luke Skywalker is not that legend any longer... at least, not at the start of the film.

    It's been over 30 years since the fall of the Empire. We could've either gotten a flat Luke who was the perfect embodiment of the Jedi... but if that's the case, how did Snoke and Kylo ever rise to power? At least Palpatine was an insidious sith who managed to stealthily manipulate his way to power- Snoke is a little less subtle.

    So, I think Luke had to have fallen... but only so that he could rise.


    I'm kinda dumbfounded when people claim that Luke is out of character in TLJ. Sure, he had his moment of weakness (Which is a great narrative trait for a character to have, especially Luke "Plot Armor" Skywalker). But he rose to such heights after that, literally expanding our idea of the force itself.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]



    Luke may not have been the last Jedi... but he's the first we've seen, the first true Jedi at least. And god, I'm so very sad for people who love Luke and haven't managed to see that yet, because it's such a perfect direction for his character.
     
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  2. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Rebel General

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    Yeah, it blows my mind how some people are still in denial about this. For some reason the people who liked E8 have to believe that Hamill liked it as well, despite the mountains of evidence to the contrary.
     
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  3. Bandini

    Bandini Jedi Commander

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    The problem isn't that Luke is imperfect. The problem is that Luke isn't Luke.

    If I make a movie with Darth Vader giving free hugs on Tattoine, it will sound weird to some people.
     
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  4. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Coramoor

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    This would make more sense to me if The Last Jedi took place a handful of years after Return of the Jedi. Why do we expect people to be exactly the same after 30 years?
     
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  5. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    Ugh... let's try this again.

    Who is Luke to you?

    Clearly you have this idea of who Luke is, based off of what now amounts to about 6 and a half hours of film time, some comic books, and a few other supplementary items.

    Remember- Legends doesn't count anymore, sorry.

    We see Luke in what is arguably his finest hour- we see Luke as the Legend that they explicitly spell out in this film.



    But he's still a person. A human. Fallible.

    You're holding Luke to a high standard based off of your own head canon. Sorry you were wrong. But this is Luke.
     
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  6. StoneRiver

    StoneRiver Rebel General

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    You never throw away your moral compass - that sticks with you from the moment you gain your morals until the moment you die.

    The Luke we got did not have the same morals as the Luke we knew. In my opinion anyway.
     
  7. Bandini

    Bandini Jedi Commander

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    Who is Luke ? Someone who don't give up, someone who tries to fix things, to help his friends despite his flaws.

    If the point of the JJ Abrams, Kathleen Kennedy and "Who is Luke Skywalker ? " meeting is that loser who ran away from his duty then yes, it felt weird to me.
     
  8. Jack_Forest

    Jack_Forest Force Attuned

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    No. Your opinion on what's right and what's moral can change throughout your life several times. 30 years have passed between the Luke you "knew" and TLJ. Are your views on things the same as 30 years ago?
     
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  9. Bandini

    Bandini Jedi Commander

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    Deep inside, I am the same person than 30 years ago.

    Who's the real Luke ? The dude who helped defeat the empire or the dude who milks aliens ?
     
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  10. Sparafucile

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    It bothers me that people who love TLJ keep going back to fans who dislike it that we wanted a perfect Luke.

    I must have posted at least a dozen times how fans could have accepted most of what Luke was in TLJ, save some more drastic characterization and creepiness, as well as a better backstory to lead him to where he is. I'm sure this won't be the last time, but here goes.

    We are okay with grumpy gruff Luke. We are okay with almost everything Luke is in TLJ. We just didn't want him creeping into his nephews room, raping his mind while he slept and coming so close to killing said child by igniting his lightsaber. Oh, and if Luke is to toss away his lightsaber, at least talk about why and his reasoning and do it in a way that is compelling, not made as a spoof (which is how it felt in TLJ).

    @cawatrooper , we've agreed to disagree many times, and I value our back and forth discussions, but as much as there might be some small part of us fans who would have liked to see Luke kick butt, I think that was more of an initial reaction, especially a reaction to what we got instead. I and many others were expecting a grumpy Luke. Most of the traits he displayed were not that shocking. The movie could have worked just fine without having Luke probe Ben's mind in his sleep in the privacy of his bedroom and drawing and igniting his lightsaber.

    Personally, I think people's like or dislike probably hinges on their personal interpretation to that last Luke explanation (and the other 2 before that). Maybe those who love TLJ don't see the mind probe as a form of rape, maybe they see Luke entering the bedroom of sleeping Ben as a right he has as master, but combined with the mind probe and ignition of his lightsaber as horribly creepy, and with those 2 differences, I can see how someone can see Luke losing it make more sense. I think for the "haters", Luke entering Ben's room and probing his mind while he sleeps is seen as very creepy and something more fitting of Hannibal Lector than Luke Skywalker. That he was going to kill him for actions that he hadn't done yet, from a future that is always in motion, is appalling to us (villainous and deranged). I think perhaps the difference has more to do with what we find is moral about people using such fantastic abilities to prevent (and what steps to prevent said tragedy) tragedy before they are even acted upon rather than focusing on humanizing the person with the errant thoughts, and thus rehabilitate or save them, since no crime has yet been committed.

    Take out the saber toss and add gravitas to that scene (the fact that it's clear that it wasn't JJ's vision to have that Luke there and instead have him with floating rocks and such greatly hurts RJ's decision in the view of us haters) and remove the creepiness of Luke. There are literally hundreds of ways and reasons Luke could have been depicted as grumpy, gruff, disillusioned and even angry that would not have been creepy. As fans, we could have still connected to the character even while disagreeing with him, but I least we could have sympathized. With TLJ Luke we can't sympathize because RJ takes the creepiness too far, and thus for us his redemption moment falls flat.

    Personally I think this is where RJ failed. I think RJ believed as TLJ lovers do that Luke's failures are great but not that creepy. He never considered that people could view those scenes and view something much more sinister, vile even, and turn Luke into someone we can't even begin to sympathize with. In RJ's desire to create a relatable Kylo Ren, he pushed Luke's character beyond what some people could relate to. I don't think it was necessary to tell the story. I think that essentially the same story could have been told without making Luke creepy. Make him imperfect, jaded and a failure, I think "haters" could have come to around to accepting that. Making him creepy was too much.
     
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  11. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    How are those things diametrically opposed?

    That argument literally does not make sense.



    And then, over the course of 30 years, things happened that molded his character further.

    I mean, to paraphrase John Mulaney, do people think Luke sat in a blank empty room and ate saltine crackers for 30 years, then walked onto the set at the end of The Force Awakens?

    It's so incredibly ironic that people still try to see Luke as the legend that he explicitly described in TLJ, and try to deny him of his own humanity as a character.

    And honestly, the hyperbole and phrasing is so incredibly revealing here. Describing Luke as the "dude who milks aliens" and "loser who ran away from his duty" makes me wonder if you even saw the last half of the movie.

    Hey Sparc,

    Of course man, always good to talk with you and get another point of view. And if that scene is something you take issue with, I'm sure I can't change your mind.

    Again, I see that as something of a momentary weakness- Luke sensed through the force the damage Kylo could cause (the entire Hosnian system, for starters).

    I've said this before, but I think if anything it's a testament to Luke's mercy that he decided not to kill Kylo in the end.

    I appreciated the scene for its Rashomon-like quality of showing two differing perspectives, leaving us to wonder which is real.




    And for the record, this is certainly not the scene that all fans agree on as having ruined Luke. Just ask @Bandini, he seems to have completely different issues than your with Luke.
     

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  12. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Coramoor

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    "Skywalker, still looking to the horizon. Never here, now, hmm? The need in front of your nose."

    Luke was trained for a a couple of weeks? It seems likely he might have some issues in the future. He wasn't like Obi-Wan who had been trained his entire life. Luke choose the light, but he was always gonna be a work in progress.

    FWIW, Luke is my favorite characters and this isn't the Luke I was hoping to see either. He was my hero and he let us all down, but he's also human. In the end he left a hero and I love the direction they took. They could have done the simple fan service thing, but they went with something more human.
     
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  13. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    you are solely responsible for how you feel about Luke.
    you can empathize with him or you can just hate him/be disgusted at him for being fallible.

    it's not Johnson's job to make you feel great about Luke. it's Johnson's job to tell a story.
    and in this case the story is one about rising up from failure. maybe that's not a story you like and that's okay.
    again: it was never going to please everyone.
     
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  14. Sparafucile

    Sparafucile Guest

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    So possibly the difference of opinion, at least in part, is from our own individual personal experience. Despite being more cynical than 30 years ago, I'm still that guy who'll stop on the side of the road to help out a car with hazard lights on. I'm a rural boy, as Luke is, and there are traits from living and venturing into the boonies that don't die easy (no matter how many people ask me why I'm stopping while holding a crow bar and acting extremely defensive... what a world we live in lol). I'm still the guy who'll see someone in need and listen to their story and try and help. I would however be more likely to consider the possibility of a con and thus call in help (police) if things didn't feel right.
     
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  15. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    Congrats on being a great person (seriously, good on you, man).

    Just curious though- how are you going to feel about Solo? Seems like Ehrenreich might play a much pluckier happy-go-lucky version of the character later.

    Should Han have remained like that through the OT? Or is his disillusionment justified in this case?


    Or how about Anakin? How could the man who loved Padme be the one who also choked her?

    Or Lando? Dude was a scumbag traitor at first, but became a Rebel general by the end of the war.


    Why aren't these problematic as well?
     
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  16. Sparafucile

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    You missed the part where I wrote Luke could have failed in a million ways, just don't make it creepy. I'm not responsible for having Luke creep into Ben's room, mind rape him and then draw his lightsaber and ignite it while contemplating murder. That's on RJ. How I interpret those scenes, that's on us, sure, but failure Luke I can accept, murderer, child molester Luke, I can't.

    To say RJ has no responsibility on how Luke is viewed is funny. The whole point of writing and directing is to deliver a message. From where I stand, the message I get is that child raping people, even if they did great things in the past, can still be celebrated and redeemed if they give their lives for a noble cause. At the very least, it's a pretty controversial message to impart in a SW flick.
     
  17. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    I really don't think many people got that message from this...

    I'm sure there's some people out there who have had horrific experiences happen to them, and if this scene triggered them then I definitely empathize with that.

    But that's otherwise really a stretch, and honestly kinda tasteless.


    Plus, it's not like Luke randomly snuck into Ben's room for no reason. He had already sensed the kid's evil- killing someone in their sleep is a pretty common trope in storytelling.
     
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  18. FN-3263827

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    but that's your definition of creepy.

    yes, i too was very very disturbed about Luke's behavior with Ben.
    i walked out of my first viewing thinking: oh my God, it's worse than i ever imagined!

    but then i reminded myself that Luke didn't act on this.
    Snoke
    is the real murdering child molestor. he's the child raper.
    Luke had a concern and panicked. and then made it worse by disengaging himself from the situation because he judged himself so harshly.
    i can absolutely forgive him for that. it wasn't wise, but it was human.

    i will not forgive Snoke, who is the actual monster here and who has manipulated all of this.
    Luke is his victim too.
     
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  19. Sparafucile

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    My experience is that in youth, things seem more black and white, but also we tend to be more upbeat. We feel we have more ability to affect change and do great things. So I don't think Solo will bother me that much. He hasn't seen as much of the world as OT Han has seen. I would have had an issue has we heard Han had diddled some kids between the OT and the ST though. That would have been out of character.

    Anakin was a villain, so that's different. We knew going into the OT that we would see his fall. To be fair, I dislike the PT mostly because of the Anakin/Padme story. It just doesn't feel right, and though the CW helps breach the awkwardness of the PT, my viewing of the PT before were disasters, even knowing that Anakin had to become Vader in the end. Which is why I wrote "how the ST can be better than the OT" thread. I'm just saying that Luke in TLJ feels more disjointed to me than the whole Anakin/Padme in the PT, and that's a feat in and of itself.

    Lando I thought of Pontius Pilot turned good. I always felt sorry for the dude condemning Jesus to death, and Lando felt he same to me. People can be scumbags, and not creepy, and change into decent people with maturity. To me Lando from Solo will be like that teenager who never grew out of that selfishness stage well beyond the Solo movie. I know some people like that. Again, if he diddled kids, raped women, did some creepy stuff, that would completely change the way I view the character.
     
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  20. Jack_Forest

    Jack_Forest Force Attuned

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    Good for you. Yet, based on my experiences (like terrible depression), I can perfectly understand why Luke is the way he is in the beginning of the movie. I am also a very different person from who I was 4-5 years ago, so again I have trouble understanding why Luke is supposed to stay the same after 30 years, especially with his rather "active" lifestyle.
    And aslo agree, that the "haters", who keep calling Luke a "loser, who milks aliens", simply ignore the last third of the movie. After what Luke experienced, rising up and facing Kylo Ren like that makes Luke infinitely more heroic, that if he remained a "perfect" figure of 80s child imagination.
     
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