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Fixing the dreadful worldbuilding of the ST

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by zazeron, Apr 28, 2018.

  1. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

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    And you wonder why I jest in my responses?
    Look, you just flat out ignored reems of facts and documented evidence against this "downward trend" heyperbole, skip nearly any reply to my responses which show this (repeatedly), and then stick to this conviction that you have that there is a downward trend with no actual basis for your hyperbolic claim.

    Why should I take you seriously?
    There's no return on the investment, as you have made up your mind, facts be damned.

    SW is fine, there's no downward trend of the asset property; Disney, and their financial records,has made that abundantly clear. Hate the film all you want, but stop with the near flat-Earth level fact denying.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  2. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Rebel General

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    I have stated my thesis, I have provided supporting evidence, you disagreed with my conclusions. I read your post, let you have the last word (especially since we were going around in circles) and moved on. You really don't have to engage in personal attacks but for some reason you have chosen to.

    My sincere hope is that TLJ and 2017 are the outliers and Solo reverses the downward trend. I have no idea why that statement upsets you so much that you felt the need to response with insults and condescension.

    Cheers,
    Wolfpack
     
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  3. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

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    You have supplied insufficient evidence to support your claim, and have not refuted nor countered the evidence contesting your claim.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  4. Pomojema

    Pomojema Ayatollah Of Rock-&-Rolla
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    Correction: that's over a 4-day period, versus the 3-day period that brought Rogue One $155M. RO made $172M over the 4-day range.

    Still: that's a great opening considering that it's a spin-off that doesn't have any of the original cast, and one that supposedly nobody wanted to see.
     
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  5. zazeron

    zazeron Rebelscum

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    Solo is gonna suprise...but im still pissed that disney hubris prevented them from moving it to august where it could have had great legs and generated headlines rather than worry pieces
     
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  6. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

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    Well, I for one am happy since my birthday is May 25th. :D

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  7. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Rebel General

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    It's a great opening and gives us good reason to be optimistic.

    Having said that, it is not accurate to say it is tracking higher that R1's actuals. Depending on which reports you believe, it is very much on par with R1 or, at the very worst, about $10 million below. So that's not bad at all.
     
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  8. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Coramoor

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    From Deadline...
     
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  9. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Rebel General

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    Well, like I said, it depends on which sources you believe because it is all projections right now. Rogue One was $172 million for it's first 4 days and most sources have Solo tracking $160 million to $170 million for it's first 4 days, which is a tremendously strong opening. I'd be very happy with that range.

    Just be aware that a lot of publications, including the one you quoted, only references Rogue One's 3-day score since Rogue One's opening weekend was just a typical 3 day weekend. So don't fall into the trap of comparing apples to oranges.
     
  10. Snazel

    Snazel Force Sensitive

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    Again, I must say I am so glad most of you have anything to do with the direction of this brand, because your ideas are tired, reactionary and very boring. Some fans just seem to hate to be challenged and just want to be regurgitated fan service forever. Rogue One was a fan service film, TLJ dared to challenge your thinking, for better or for worse.

    The truth is of course, the brand doesn't need fixing, the brand is not in trouble, the brand is thriving and the direction of the brand is stronger and better than it has been in decades. These are facts substantiated by the very quarterly reports of Disney itself, the general box office draws, the increased activity in licensing and toy sales and of course the increased investment in expanded properties, Star Wars cruise ships, Star Wars hotels, Star Wars theme parks have all arrived or are coming our way.

    So not only does the ST not need to be fixed, it needs to be doing a lot more of the same. Kathleen Kennedy saved this brand and deserves your praise.

    Your Snoke theories suck, the Star Wars brand is thriving, two simple facts so many of you refuse to recognize. Just because you are angry doesn't mean you have facts supporting you. Facts are actually more stubborn than you are and they are winning. :)
     
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  11. Ammianus Marcellinus

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    Says the sequels have dreadful worldbuilding and then comes up with this.....
    --- Double Post Merged, May 5, 2018, Original Post Date: May 5, 2018 ---
    You read my mind sir. The sequels are critically acclaimed for a reason! No more fan service! No more production house pieces like RO please!

    (pssst........even though I love RO :p:p)
     
    #71 Ammianus Marcellinus, May 5, 2018
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  12. Jedi77-83

    Jedi77-83 Force Sensitive

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    While I like TFA and TLJ as movies, I disagree with you that TLJ challenged the viewer. Headfakes like Snoke dying is not challenging the viewer as it’s more a left turn.

    My problem with the ST isn’t the movies as I think they’re both done well and the new characters are great. The problem is the big picture story is generally the same as the OT and it feels like a retread.

    As we head into Episode 9, the two main storylines are Rey vs Kylo and Resistance vs First Order. We went through a Trilogy of the Rebellion vs Empire so the Resistance vs Rebellion doesn’t excite me. Rey vs Ren is alittle different then Luke vs Vader, but again it’s still the same overall story.

    I hate to break it to you but the ST is not challenging fans and I’ll just quote Lucas on why he divorced from Disney, “They wanted me to make a movie for the fans.....”. The PT was original and different yet still mirrored the OT and made a compelling 1-6 story. The ST movies are entertaining and well made but they really don’t fit with 1-6 as they should have been their own Trilogy without the 7,8,9 numbers.
     
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  13. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

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    Snoke dying is the same mirror point as Darth Maul and Palpatine dying. It's not a left turn; it's exactly as it's supposed to be.
    If folks expected something more out of Snoke, sorry.
    The only form of a surprise here is that it happened in 8 instead of 9, and that's because 8 responded to episode 1, 2, 5, and 6 in one film instead of only responding to 2 and 5, as was predicted. The guess here is that this was done to give 9 some freedom to do something more than respond to 1 and 6 as it would have done naturally. (as to why 1 and 6, because 1 is a response to 6, 2 is a response to 5, and 3 is a response to 4)
    Snoke was always going to die, and he was always going to either get cut in half, or fall down a long hole, and/or both; after Han fell down a long hole, that made it less likely that Snoke was going to fall down a hole, which left the "cut in half" as the remaining option that was more likely because Palpatine was thrown down a long hole, and Maul was cut in half and thrown down a long hole.

    Before the ST even started, it should have been in astute watcher's minds that an antagonist like Snoke was coming; that is, someone like a combination of Palpatine of the OT and Maul of the PT motifs mashed together.

    Here, take a look. This is a book that was written before TLJ came out, which uses the chiasmus structure as a means of predicting what will be in TLJ.
    Where they went wrong, was in assuming that TLJ would only mirror 2 and 5; where most of us went wrong. THAT was the only real shocker of TLJ; that is took on 4 film motifs at once, instead of the traditional 1 (prequels) or 2 (sequels, well...TFA).
    [​IMG]

    Yes, because we're still on the same song; we're in the third verse of the same song, so we're not going to get a new song all of a sudden.
    That will happen after 9 concludes. Then the writing can expand off into new songs, but until then, we will still be going through the same saga's stanzas, and it would be horrible if it didn't - it would entirely wreck one of the late 20th and early 21st centuries greatest epic poems if it suddenly stopped refraining the same themes.

    Lucas was referring to design, mostly, and was also referring to how he wanted what he had (which was a variation of TLJ) as episode 7 instead of playing nice and delivering an opening episode that's more adventure bound - he wanted to jump straight for the jugular right out of the gate with Luke struggling to find motivation to have faith and a very dystopic setting right out.
    For example, Lucas, in that same interview, also qualified what he means by "completely different".
    What he meant, then was that it looked like the OT, and that was something that he doesn't prefer to do; which is true, as clearly seen in the PT's radical departure in aesthetic from the OT.
    However, anyone who thinks the PT is "completely different" as a story from the OT is not remembering Lucas' own words on his story plans:
    So it's not new; it's new-ish; a new verse, but a verse of the same song, none-the-less. The same beats and motifs will occur, the same setting will still be happening.

    Once 9 concludes, then Star Wars will be free to start an actually new song (or stop making chiasmus stories entirely if they don't want to do that anymore).

    And I can't agree; 7 and 8 really only fit with 1 through 6. If you tried to offer them as not related, it would be very awkward considering how much their entire story structures rely on the PT and OT's story structures and motifs as the basis for their responses to those structures and motifs.

    Also, Lucas said this about making more Star Wars films way back in 2012.
    So...good job to the fanbase in general for making the creator feel terrible, and then turning around and doing pretty much the same thing to the new creators (who luckily seem more freshly able to put up with it).

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  14. Pomojema

    Pomojema Ayatollah Of Rock-&-Rolla
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    You mean Deadpool 2, a movie that was put in that release window as a game of chicken - Fox was expecting Solo to be delayed to December, if comments from Rob Liefeld are of any indication - that Fox is looking to lose (which is to nobody's benefit considering that they're about to be bought out by Disney). I have heard concerning things about that movie and it sounds like a movie that should have received a Rogue One-like post-production overhaul that it only halfway got. Fox doesn't have any major releases over the Summer, so it likely would have been a smart move on their part.

    Delaying Solo would have likely reinforced the "it's a disaster" narrative that was already building, and at this point it's clear that Lucasfilm will advertise their movies how they damn well please to. Since Deadpool 2 will be more front-loaded than its predecessor (which had virtually no competition for over a month), Solo effectively has three weeks to itself before Jurassic World: Fallen Kingdom. It'll be fine.
     
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  15. zazeron

    zazeron Rebelscum

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    but why Blast up the legs of solo when you have freaking august there for the taking
    --- Double Post Merged, May 7, 2018, Original Post Date: May 7, 2018 ---
    this is of course patently false...not only is the worldbuilding down from the previous 6 movies, but the villian flow is completely and utterly ruined. Palpatine was the main villian of the PT, Vader was the main villain of the OT, And to make the flow better than plagueis or the prime jedi would have been perfect. But what we got was a world breaking cartoon with no depth called snoke.

    Icannot wait for episode 9 to underperform
     
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  16. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

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    What here proves that over a dozen disperate points of my post are "patently false".

    "Not only is the worldbuilding down from the previous 6 movies, but the villian flow is completely and utterly ruined. Palpatine was the main villian of the PT, Vader was the main villain of the OT,..." therefore...
    • It's false without doubt that Snoke was always going to die?
    • It's false without doubt that the ST has continued the chiasmus structure?
    • It's false without doubt that Lucas said that he wrote the PT to be like poetry of the OT?
    • It's false without doubt that Darth Maul was cut in half and fell down a hole?
    • It's false without doubt that Palpatine was tossed down a hole?
    • It's false without doubt that Han fell down a hole?
    • It's false without doubt that Snoke was cut in half?
    • It's false without doubt that a book was written before TLJ was released that used the chiasmus narrative structure to make predictions about what TLJ would be like?
    • It's false without doubt that we are still in the same saga?
    • It's false without doubt that after 9, the chiasmus refrain won't be inherently required?
    • It's false without doubt that Lucas likes new ships and planets in each film?
    • It's false without doubt that the ST relies on the PT and OT for its narrative?
    • It's false without doubt that Lucas walked away from Star Wars because he was tired of fans "yelling" at him?
    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  17. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Coramoor

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    This thread is just another "hate thread." It should have either been merged into that discussion or with the "problems with the sequel trilogy" thread. The title doesn't even make sense. Most people don't consider anything about the ST as dreadful.

    It's difficult to reason with anyone coming into this discussion from that position.
     
    #77 DailyPlunge, May 7, 2018
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  18. Ghost of Obi Wan Kenobi

    Ghost of Obi Wan Kenobi Rebel Official

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    Give it time. TFA is only three years old.
    And already people are quoting from this film. Examples I have heard: “this is worth...... portions.” “Tell that to Kanji Club.” “Why does everybody want to go back to Jakku?” “That’s not how the Force works!” Etc....
     
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  19. Pomojema

    Pomojema Ayatollah Of Rock-&-Rolla
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    Because Christopher Robin is scheduled for August and somehow I don't think it was going to be the kind of movie to make a killing over Memorial Day Weekend.
    Ugh. This is literally just the kind of "WHY DIDN'T MUH HEADCANON GET FULFILLED" rage threads that has been making large portions of the fandom insufferable since December 2017.

    The Prime Jedi is not anyone who has relevance to the Sequel Trilogy. It's a concept to establish what the "first" Jedi would have been like. It's a background detail only elaborated upon in the lore that wasn't even discussed in the film itself.

    Darth Plagueis is similar in concept - he was part of Palpatine's backstory to explain how the future Emperor gained the knowledge of the Dark Side and not the set-up for some villain in the Sequel Trilogy. And bear in mind that I was a big fan of the idea of Snoke being Darth Plagueis for a while, but upon reflecting I think it's for the best that he's not the villain because the Sith still surviving after Return of the Jedi would diminish the power of Anakin's sacrifice at the end of the film.
     
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  20. Snazel

    Snazel Force Sensitive

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    There is no problem first of all. The movies are making bank, which is their entire purpose, to make the stockholders rich. So let's first admit the films are completely functional and serving their exact purpose. The only "problem" is you don't like them. But that's just you. One person's opinion only and has no reflection on the quality of the story telling or the success of the brand.

    Are we good with that? That your perception is something you are entitled to but it does not reflect universal truth or an accurate assessment of quality? It's just an opinion.

    As for "retread", it's an interesting criticism, one commonly trotted out by fans, who trot out single, off the hand, off-context quotes to show they are right. Mark Hamill has also gone on record saying he loved Episode 8, supports the film and is proud of his work on it that he considered a challenge. Paragraphs of quotes you left out to pat yourself on the back that Episode 8 is a retread.

    You are entitled to your own opinion on the film of course. But the film's director specifically challenged each character in the film with a situation that forced them to confront their change their normal track. He has stated this emphatically and actors have also praised the methodology and challenges he presented.

    Loyal Poe had to consider mutiny, the person who most wants to avoid the fight and just survive had to confront the fact he needed to be front and center in the most dangerous mission yet and actually GO BACK to the thing he was running away from, right to the heart of it in fact. Rey had to confront that she is a nobody, wanting to learn a religion that is now extinct and had to consider uniting forces with her worst enemy in order to confront and cope with that fact. Luke lost the religion he dedicated his life to. Leia had to confront she asked for help for her most sacred cause at the most desperate hour and nobody came except a ghost.

    Now you may not have liked that story, but it was a very unique way of telling a story. And it gave us a Star Wars film unlike any other, which I am fine describing as "challenging". It's just an adjective anyway, how could anyone try to quantify it? Is that painting "nice"? How could anyone definitively argue one way or the other? DId the painting make a billion dollars? Well clearly something about the painting worked.

    As for the retread comment, Star Wars is and always will be a morality tale. To some this is boring, that only morally ambiguous and complicated exposition is considered worthy. This despite the fact some of America's greatest films ever deal with sharp moral contrast and the general struggle of the individual over the collective. A common American theme as ancient as Mark Twain.

    It's okay if you don't like it, but it's a permanent part of the American tapestry and one of the reason why Star Wars and WORKS NOW BETTER THAN EVER IN ITS HISTORY is that Star Wars is a reflection of American culture and values. If that's "retread", then keep it coming, because it is freaking delicious.
     
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