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For people who disliked the Prequels, consider this:

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by YubNubBub, Dec 29, 2016.

  1. Darth Board

    Darth Board Clone Commander

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    TPM made so much money in part because of the phenomenon of people who disliked the movie, going back several times, simply because they couldn't accept that they disliked the movie. I think George figured out this phenomenon before anyone else and it probably contributed to his slapdash attitude with regard to the quality of the movies. I reckon George could've made a 2 hour movie of himself Frelling out the words Star Wars - "day 4 I finally complete the S" - and it would've still made hundreds of millions with some people even going back to rewatch it to figure out the hidden meaning in genius George's poop - maybe he shat out an Easter egg.
     
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  2. Ammianus Marcellinus

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    Critic and audience reception. Quite easy to look up the aggregates. I'm not interested in how much a movie made.
     
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  3. Background Character

    Background Character Rebel Official

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    You can do the exact same thing with TPM:


    A blond boy with the name Skywalker lives on the desert planet of Tatooine.


    The boy lives an undesirable life, but is very skilled in mechanics and piloting through Tatooine canyons.


    Boy dreams of one day leaving the planet to become a hero pilot.


    Boy meets a Jedi Knight and the droid R2-D2.


    Jedi Knight promises to teach the boy the ways of the force and become a Jedi.


    Boy is asked by the Jedi to leave Tatooine and his home. Boy initially resists, but finally agrees.


    Mentor-like Jedi Knight and the boy seek to help a teenaged female royal restore peace in a great conflict that has brought suffering to her people.


    Jedi Knight dies in a lightsaber fight with a Sith.


    The boy must then be trained by someone else.


    Boy pilots a starfighter he had never flown before with the droid, R2-D2 to attack an enemy space station.


    Boy uses torpedoes to destroy the enemy space station and save the day, winning the battle for the heroes.


    The heroes celebrate in a grand ceremony in which the characters stand atop steps in the final shot of the film.


    Similarity does not constitute remake. The plot of TFA is to locate a missing Luke Skywalker so that he may help in the fight against the First Order. The whole opening scroll explains this. The plot of A New Hope is to deliver the plans to the Death Star to the Rebels so they can mount an attack on it before it destroys them. These are two different plots.
     
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  4. Amanaman

    Amanaman Rebel Official

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    You are trying to deny something that even the movies creator admits. JJ Abrams himself knows he ripped off ANH:
    ! jj abrams 1.png

    ! jj abrams 2.png

    ! jj abrams 3.png
    ! jj abrams 4.png Now, are you going to call him a lair? A hater? Are you going to say JJ hates TFA when he himself admits it was basically a copy of ANH?
     
  5. Background Character

    Background Character Rebel Official

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    I'm not denying there are similar plot elements included in The Force Awakens to re-familiarize the audience with classic Star Wars. That's what JJ is admitting to doing. He is not admitting that his film is a complete ripoff like the hypothetical quote, he is explaining his reasoning for the film containing familiar elements in order to move forward with a NEW story.

    Why are you denying that the overarching plots of both films are different? Please explain how A New Hope was about deserting stormtrooper teaming up with a girl abandoned on a junk planet to help locate a missing Jedi on an island before his dark-side using nephew does. I thought A New Hope was about a farm boy, a wizard and a space pirate rescuing a princess so the plans of the Death Star could be delivered to the rebels so they could mount an attack on it. Are you telling me that the two are the same thing?
     
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  6. Darth Ezra

    Darth Ezra Clone Commander

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    truth be told, i just find those three films a chore to watch. all the stuff that has been argued to death by now about them is beside the point for me, the prequels first and foremost fail to entertain me. i tip my cap to all those that love them and will defend them to their deaths, but no argument or theory or new perspective will make me like the prequels. and at the end of the day, who cares? what we like and dislike is as subjective a thing as you find and i cherish these differences.
     
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  7. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    Yes. And it was lazy writing when George Lucas did it then too. What’s your point?
    This is like giving a car a new paint job and then trying to claim it's a different car. It might LOOK different because you made some cosmetic changes, but underneath, it's still the same thing.
     
    #67 eeprom, Jan 1, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2017
  8. Canadian Ronin

    Canadian Ronin Rebel General

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    I disagree with anyone who says those characters are racist. If you want to find racism you can find it in just about everything, and I think the people who claim that are people who are looking for something to be racist and offended by.
     
  9. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    If you are going to play the "everyone is just looking to be offended" card, try a different movie to use it with.

    The racial stereotypes in the PT are bad. Very bad.

    There's a difference between looking for something to be racist...and them actually being racist.

    Using bad racial stereotypes is not looking for something to be racist...it's just racist.

    Looking for something to be racist would be complaining that Diego Luna's character just plays a shifty minority scoundrel type who needs saved by white girl.
    Ignoring that he's playing into the Han Solo archetype.

    Making a character overtly "Yes massah wesa happy on the plantation Song of the South" era black stereotypes

    I'm not saying Lucas is racist...but there's just far too many of these situations in the PT.
    It's either bad shoddy writing or...well that's actually what it is.
     
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  10. Canadian Ronin

    Canadian Ronin Rebel General

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    But they aren't, because Jar isn't black. The Neimoidian's aren't asian. Seeing them as such is YOU assuming they are susposed to represent those people and those characters and the characters of those people.

    You're LOOKING for things to be racist and to be upset about. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, and sometimes aliens just talk in annoying ways.
     
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  11. Background Character

    Background Character Rebel Official

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    But it's not the same. The characters in one movie have one objective. The characters in the other movie have a completely different objective. The cosmetics ARE the thing that's similar. NOT the overarching plot. If you can explain how tracking down a missing person is the same as destroying a super weapon, please do so.
     
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  12. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    They are absolutely characterized on those things. They are too similar not to be. And by too similar, I mean blatant stereotypes.




    I am not looking for it, it's just flat out racist and bad.
    You can see in both of these where the base for a lot of Jar Jar and the other Gungans came from.

    If you can't comprehend the difference between inherently racist stereotypes and coincidence (Luna's character being a scoundrel)...then you are just in denial.
     
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  13. Admiral Raddus

    Admiral Raddus Rebel Official

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    We're getting in quite the shambles here ...
     
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  14. YubNubBub

    YubNubBub Rebel General

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    Racist?

    I have to stop you there. We can say Qui Gon was racist because he represented all white males as funless and serious. He even talked white so he is obviously a racist character towards whites.

    This contention is a bad one. You have to base the character on an idea and George Lucas had zero racist intent. He showcased different aliens with different backgrounds, using ideas from reality. There was nothing racist about it, unless you want to acuse every other character was racist.

    C3P0 was racist. He clearly represents the white mans attempt at formulating a man with a white background is superior in everyway, considering the fact he was golden, which shows royalty and superiority.

    You are reaching into something that does not exist.
     
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  15. Canadian Ronin

    Canadian Ronin Rebel General

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    But not every character who speaks kind of the same way = making fun of black people like they did in the 30's. And you're assigning motive and inspiration, which you have no way of knowing.

    And I can tell you're just looking for things to be offended at because you're picking and choosing. You obviously don't like Jar Jar and the PT''s aren't looked at so great, so that is racist, but we can't apply the same logic (Lucas was inspired by racist things, but the Rogue One people weren't, right?) to Cassian because we like Cassian and Rogue One. You're willing to make excuses when it suits you, and see things that aren't racist as racist when it suits you.
     
  16. YubNubBub

    YubNubBub Rebel General

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    Star Wars is about bringing different people together to enjoy the universe. To do that, you have to relate to people.

    Take a Native American for example. How could you appeal to them? By writing in something that relates to them, perhaps the ewoks considering they were tribes? Do we call that racist?

    There is no division in Star Wars, rather unification.
     
  17. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    Holy missing the point Batman.

    You can make ethnic characters without using horrible stereotypes.

    That's the point.
    --- Double Post Merged, Jan 2, 2017, Original Post Date: Jan 2, 2017 ---
    You are again just missing the point.
    I never said Lucas himself had racist intent. The end product was. There's a difference.

    It's all in his lazy writing and bad execution throughout the series. A good example was how the Hutts were based off of the Italian Mafia. But he isn't running around with a gold chain in his undershirt hitting his wife screaming "That's a spicy meatball!"

    You cannot seriously see the difference?

    Watch a Mel Brooks movie. See how making fun of a stereotype works.
    Then you might be able to see the difference between what JarJar and the Nemoidians are and virtually everything else that isn't racist trash.
     
  18. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    I provided a fairly comprehensive listing here. These aren’t recycled aesthetic artifacts meant to elicit feelings of nostalgia alone. They’re definitive story elements that dictate the trajectory of the overall narrative. I’m genuinely baffled how anyone is unable to see how the high level story structure and circumstances of both movies are intentionally similar. Only the specifics regarding individual situations and character dynamics are made to be unique.

    This is like claiming that ‘Infernal Affairs’ and ‘The Departed’ are totally different movies. Yes, viewed from a superficial level, the two appear dissimilar. But ‘The Departed’ is an undisputed remake of ‘Infernal Affairs’. They began as the same script, but numerous alterations were made to differentiate them with respect to the filmmaker’s objective.

    That’s not to say that TFA is a ‘rip-off’ of ANH. It’s an in-continuity remake. Just like ‘Jurassic World’ and ‘Creed’. A retelling of the original, with new players, geared toward launching new sequels. The only difference is the fandoms of those franchises haven’t been waiting over three decades for the continuation of their respective ‘sagas’.

    Truthfully, I don’t hate TFA. I actually quite like it. I feel it’s a legitimately well-made movie and leaps and bounds better than the prequels. However, I found the lack of originality to be strikingly disappointing. After thirty years and near boundless resources, the next chapter didn’t deserve to be an effective retread of the first film.
     
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  19. YubNubBub

    YubNubBub Rebel General

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    Jar Jar is more Jamaican if you are to relate to real life and compare. Not what you were alluding to the racist "Yessum Massah" portrayal. More Jamaican was the idea. Clearly if you watch a video like this:



    Still your projecting without any solid proof. We can say Jar Jar resembles many real life people. Clearly the flappy ears is racist towards Hound Dogs. The point is you cannot say conclusively Jar Jar was a racist character portrayal.

    Same with the Nemoidians. I assume the Nemoidians were the Asian background. But again, what exactly are you supposed to base the ideas of these characters on?

    Do we call Maz Kanata racist because she represents small petite black women, she certain speaks like a small petite black woman. All petite black women... seriously this is getting ridiculous.

    This contention is a complete fallacy.

    Furthermore I'd like to point out that George Lucas got most of his ideas from real life. From the Christians Virgin birth of Jesus to the chosen one of Anakin Skywalker, from Nascar to pod racing, Master Apprentice relationships which are based upon early Christianity which had teacher and disciple relationships, to the Gladiator Arena in Rome and episode 2, you can see where I am going with this.

    This isn't the racism you're looking for.
     
    #79 YubNubBub, Jan 2, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2017
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  20. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    1. That may have been the basis for all Gungan speak but overall Jar Jar clearly gets his traits from other things less "pure" Your refusal to see it is not the same as it not being there. Your using hound dogs is just deflecting straw man garbage.

    2. Basing characters on Asians is fine. Making them use godawful Mickey Rooney broken "Engrish" is not okay. How is that hard to understand?

    3. Nothing about Maz is based on a black woman other than the actress. She isn't wearing a weave and snapping her fingers at the movie screen. So your next strawman falls flaccid.

    4. Yes he did. And a lot of other authors do and it is fine to do so. This was never my contention, so stop building your straw man on it. My argument has always been about Lucas' execution being lazy and half-assed thus coming off as awful racist stereotypes rather than developed unique beings.

    It was just lazy writing and poor effort at executing it. If Lucas put effort into these, they would have come off much better and genuine not just hollow stereotypes.
     
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