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For people who disliked the Prequels, consider this:

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by YubNubBub, Dec 29, 2016.

  1. YubNubBub

    YubNubBub Rebel General

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    We may just agree to disagree on this.

    You keep throwing the term straw man, and I honestly hate that arguement, its a get out of jail free card. It stems from around atheism and the last to debate me with an arguement such of that was an atheist.

    I am NOT Atheist, NOT Christian. I am Agnostic and we are superior in belief of the two.

    Not to get off on a religious tangent here, I just dislike the term "straw man". Whoever coined that term should be strung up and flogged. Not literally speaking, metaphorically speaking.

    Straw man is basically saying I've setup an erroneous arguement, as if my logic fails, which is dishonest. You have basically accused me of intellectual dishonesty in my contention. I will not take that personal as I believe it to be an honest mistake on your part.

    That said, it is you who are being dishonest (not with me however), without any emotion 'emoted' (much as I hate that term) into that statement, with yourself. Your actually lying to yourself on accepting this data. Perhaps an innocent mistake as well, or imbued bias. I cannot conclusively say why you did it, only theorize.

    Regardless, you have no Empirical evidence beyond a reasonable doubt to back up your claim. Because you lack the evidence, you cannot say I am using straw man tactics.

    Neither do I have the raw evidence to say they are racist, nor not racist. You don't either. Unless you provide irrefutable proof your going off conjecture. In this case you suggest the data you provide allows for a clear concise absolute knowledge that this is in fact racism, of which is not the case.

    I already provided counter arguements. Unless you provide empirical data beyond a reasonable doubt, I cannot accept your conclusion.

    I highly advise you to refrain contending your evidence is beyond a reasonable doubt, because it is not. Circumstantial at best for example if this is a court of law, but of a scientific mind, I highly advise you to not take the stance that what you have provided is beyond a reasonable doubt, because it is clearly not. If it was, any refutation would not be possible. However doubt, shadow, and refutation are completely plausible and reasonable responses, so again I highly advise you to not say it is beyond a reasonable doubt, because it is not.

    I also am not advising you that as if to stop any retort. I am saying that instead because of the evidence, because of observation, because of the inconclusiveness. Because, it is simply, a poor choice arguement to present the evidence as irrefutable. Irrefutable would be for example if the character used a term linking between what they spoke verbatim, to one of the videos you posted to earlier. That would be irrefutable. I briefly went over the videos myself, presupposed there to be no irrefutable evidence, because I had none during the brief moments of me observing. Thats not to say there aren't any, but I did not wish to take the time for a thorough examination based upon my initial thoughts.

    Speaking of which, if you did find a term Jar Jar used that was exclusively used in one of those videos you linked to ealier, please present it to me. That evidence I would most certainly like to see. If any term Jar Jar used is exactly the same term used in those videos you cited as evidence, I would definently like to know. While it is hardly conclusive, perhaps coincidental, it would suggest something and could warrant further investigation into the matter and I would be more open to considering the evidence you have provided and will indeed scrutinize the data verbatim myself.

    Please note this is me speaking from a purely non biased approach to the matter, without any taught emotions on the subject matter or intellectual dishonesty. Sometimes people will teach us erroneous things which we carry on in life which will obscure the truth, depending on our upbringing. This is me speaking without any bias, and intellectually honest enough to call racism for that what it is, racism. However, I need the irrefutable data to do so, without it, I merely present conjecture which is non sufficient.
     
    #81 YubNubBub, Jan 3, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2017
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  2. Canadian Ronin

    Canadian Ronin Rebel General

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    Just nitpicking - Agnostic isn't a belief (and its not superior to being religious or atheist). Being Agnostic means you refuse to pick a position because of a lack of evidence, its the lack of belief one way or the other, and ultimately a cop out on the question on whether god exists or not because it isn't a question of knowing or not knowing, its a question of belief.
     
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  3. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    "If I type enough of a wall with as much nonsense as possible, they will possibly concede"

    You say you hate straw man. But you keep setting up a straw man argument.

    Make your mind up please.

    You literally address none of the problems I have raised with the characterizations and have instead tried to make this about me. You are a troll at this point. I am ending this conversation. This board seems more lenient with trolls of your ilk than most.
     
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  4. Canadian Ronin

    Canadian Ronin Rebel General

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    First, avoiding a point doesn't = countering it. You'll still picking and choosing what parts of Star Wars that some people could see as racist are racist. You're looking for it. Jar Jar isn't meant to be racist, overtly racist, meanted to be racist etc... which is why you see it but others who aren't trying to find racism don't. You aren't looking for it with Rogue One which is why you dismiss Cassian being racist even though you made basically the same argument for his character as you did for Jar Jar's.

    I'll give you another example - Would you agree that the OT, at its core, has a racist message?

     
    #84 Canadian Ronin, Jan 3, 2017
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  5. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    The term doesn’t imply that your logic is flawed. It asserts that the position you’re taking doesn’t directly address the topic at hand. Whether intentional or not, that you’re subtly shifting the premise to one that’s more favorable to you. That’s all.

    Matters of racial sensitivity are subject to perception, not reality. If an overwhelming number of people find something offensive, then it is, whether it stands up to critical analysis or not. Like it or not.

    Were the characters in question intended to be perceived as ethnic stereotypes? No, most likely not. That, however, has no bearing on whether a significant number of people interpret it that way, and whether the filmmakers should have possibly anticipated that reaction. That’s all that’s happening here.

    Whether legitimate or not, it’s difficult to discount some of the observations. Personally, seeing Watto for the first time in 1999, I couldn’t help but think of Shylock from ‘Merchant of Venice’ and wonder if it was intentional or not. Maybe that makes me the racist :)
     
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  6. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    Yes. Thank you.
    This has snow balled out of control.


    Avoiding it? What am I avoiding? I have never said any of the things you are accusing me of.
    I never said Jar Jar, the Nemoidians nor Watto were INTENDED to be racist.
    Just that bad writing and worse execution leads them to come of as horrible racist stereotypes.

    I have even agreed with parts of the trolls statements before he went full troll. But to assert that there's no racism in these characters because "I am looking for it" is ridiculous.
    Cassian isn't a racist character though. It's just not. These are not the same things which is my point. Cassian isn't inherently based off of an ethnic group. Watto, Gungans and Nemoidians were. Cassian is just a spy who happens to be played by a Mexican actor. Any attribution of that to his being Mexican is on you.
    Watto being cheap, greedy and just happening to have a hooked nose (and later on a beard and oddly familiar hat...) is just all one big coincidence?

    Now if Cassian were portrayed as dirty, lazy and drunk all the time and wearing a space poncho...it would be a more applicable comparison.

    You could put any actor in the Cassian role and it doesn't change the essence of the character.
    You change the Gungans from their base in black cultures and they wholly change.
    That's the difference.

    Sure, make a race of greedy cheap aliens. But then don't make them look a caricature from an anti-semetic cartoon.

    Oh and as for your video, you do understand that it is a satire piece? And a satire piece that doesn't actually help your position at that?
     
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  7. Canadian Ronin

    Canadian Ronin Rebel General

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    But thats the point, you can find racist sterotypes in almost all characters because almost all attributes have been assigned to one race or another at some point. Can there never be a lazy character in Star Wars because that would be racist agaisnt mexicans?

    You are looking for it in same cases and not in others. You even pointed out how Cassian could be seen as racist, but you claim he isn't because you aren't looking for it there. You want it to be there with Jar Jar so....... You also just said Jar Jar, Watto etc... weren't intended to be racist and then said they were based off ethnic groups - which is it? And yes, a business owner and gambler who has no problem owning slaves would have those attibutes, and the design for Watto came much later from other people. Its not "lets make a Jewist alien", its "oh, thats looks cool we want to make that". Also Watto's species isn't cheap and greedy - Watto is.

    If you stop looking for racism everywhere, you'll find it in a lot fewer places.

    And yes its a comedy, however the point can be still on its own. The character is making what he wants people to believe is a serious point, and what he is saying could certainly be seriously argued (as Melissa Harris did). But you don't want to find racism in the OT and in Vader so you won't find it, you want to find it in TPM so..........shockingly you found it.
     
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  8. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    Let's try this again.

    Can there be a lazy character? Yes.
    Can he be drinking space tequila and wearing a sombrero? No.

    You are really not just getting this.

    Cassian Andor is not based on a specific set or racial stereotypes. He just happens to be played by a Mexican actor. That's the difference.

    Watto is clearly based on Jewish stereotypes. And then designed to look like an old anti-semetic cartoon.

    Are you getting this yet?

    I'm not the one looking for racism. I'm just the one not afraid to say it is. Looking for racism would be saying Cassian is a racist character. Which he is not.

    Again, you do not understand satire. That movie is presenting the dumb Vader argument as satire. It is lampooning it for the stupidity it is.
     
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  9. Canadian Ronin

    Canadian Ronin Rebel General

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    Prove to me that Cassian just happens to be Mexican and isn't based on sterotypes (even though you pointed out the sterotypical parts of h is character) and Watto is based on jewish sterotypes, and the greedy, lazy character didn't just happen to have an elephant trunk which you assume = a big a nose.


    Except the comedy makes a point which could be taken and made in a serious way, as Melissa Harris - http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-e...ause-darth-vader-is-a-black-guy-a6775406.html - did, because it is true. Vader is shown a black characters, voiced by a black actor, until he turns good then he becomes white. Why are you afraid to point out this racism? Or the potential racism regarding Cassian?
    --- Double Post Merged, Jan 3, 2017, Original Post Date: Jan 3, 2017 ---
    you also have to acknowledge that these aliens are created by teams of people. George creates the idea, often times the actors add the voice and/or physical attributes, artists design the look etc... Are you saying that George Lucas, Ahmed Best and the designers all got together and create a racist character?

    And according to Best himself (a black man by the way) who created the voice, it isn't based on black sterotypes - “I would read a lot of stories to kids, my nieces and nephews, and my little cousins,” he said, “As I would do storybooks I would do different voices for the characters, and Jar Jar’s voice was kind of the character that I had, my generic little kid voice.” That’s right, the voice we all hate so passionately, the one we know was directed at kids, was personally designed for kids under very sweet circumstances.
     
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  10. BobaFettNY21

    BobaFettNY21 Force Attuned

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    Orson Welles was considered for Vader, so that comedy bit is completely useless, as is anything even regarding Vader being a character based in prejudices and stereotypes, other than maybe veterans of war, that is unfortunately, a very real social problem when it comes to PTSD and coping with severe injuries.

    The only hurtful stereotype in the OT is for British villains....but we're still on that lol.

    If you really think people were looking for those hurtful stereotypes, then you may not have been with the many people who reacted immediately to Jar-Jar, the Neimodians and Watto. (You can't wash away the Watto thing with subsequent reference to the Clone Wars Toydarians, the damage was done). The references belonged in something from the 1930's, and not 1999. It was out of touch with more of the movie-going audience in 1999 and hurtful. It remains with that stain. Lucas doesn't and we can view him in proper context. He was using references and tropes that were out-of-time in 1999. We can fault him for that while not accuse him of something horrible. Being out-of-touch is surely not being a racist, and we know a lot about the quality of George's character and politics.

    You can reference a culture without making it a hurtful caricature, and it's a fine line that many films make, and it is often subjective, but nonetheless something that must be acknowledged and discussed, never ignored as if the observation was wrong, because caring for other people is a theme of these films.

    The only relevant fact is that an abundance of people have been pointing those hurtful stereotypes ever since TPM hit theaters. My older sister made the observation immediately after the film. More and more people had that opinion as I got older, therefore, its unfortunately a very real issue with the film.
     
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  11. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    Lazy in and of itself is not racist.
    That's the difference.
    You are selectively ignoring the rest of the traits other than lazy.

    You really can't see the difference in assuming something is racist because the actor happens to be Mexican over using dated and awful racial stereotypes?

    Are you trolling now?

    I literally just said, in the post you quoted, you could make a character like that. But then when you go and make them look like a Jewish stereotype too is too far.
    How hard is that to comprehend.

    Melissa Harris Perry is actually unhinged. She's batshit insane.
    She accused people of saying "hard work" of being racist. She's a race baiter. You got played by bringing her into the discussion. Her job is to create racism where there is none to get people to click her links and watch her show.
    You have officially equated your argument with that of a woman who thinks calling someone a "hard worker" is racist.
    --- Double Post Merged, Jan 3, 2017, Original Post Date: Jan 3, 2017 ---
    Super-mega high five.
    But granted I have said MOST of this several times, I am sure it will be completely ignored anyways.
     
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  12. Canadian Ronin

    Canadian Ronin Rebel General

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    I'm not arguing the OT is racist, just pointing out that when you look for racism like RoyleRancor is, you can and will find it just about everywhere.

    Having a character who shares attributes with some racist sterotypes doesn't = a racist character. And if you're going to argue that youhave to take Kevin Smiths joke and Melissa Harris's point seriously as well.

    People being overly sensative and looking for racism isn't a real issue that anyone should be concerned with. Be concerned with real racism.
     
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  13. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    If Cassian Andor was played by Ben Foster, does the character change or alter his entire personality? No.
    There's your proof.
    --- Double Post Merged, Jan 3, 2017, Original Post Date: Jan 3, 2017 ---
    Find it everywhere? I am literally saying there are just 3 bad examples of it.

    And dear god, you can't actually be serious about this can you?
     
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  14. Canadian Ronin

    Canadian Ronin Rebel General

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    I didn't just included one attribute, but good try.

    There is more the one way to be racist. You have pointed out how Cassian has some attributes you could say are styerotypical of mexians, and they just happen to hire a mexican actor to play him.........

    How many Jews have blue skin, wings, tusks, a trunk and are 2 feet tall?

    Oh, so when Melissa Harris thinks she see's racist sterotypes its crazy, but you look for them its legit. And no, I've equated your argument to hers, because you're doing the same thing.

    and stop accusing everyone who disagrees with you of trolling. Its a lame tactic to try to get people to shut up.
     
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  15. BobaFettNY21

    BobaFettNY21 Force Attuned

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    Being concerned with the propagation of stereotypes is not being overly sensitive. Ending those stereotypes is a good thing, and it doesn't happen just because people are being 'good'. Dismissing concerns of others is offensive. Listening to them and having the dialogue is constructive. Jar-Jar was an out-of-touch reference to real stereotype caricatures that propagated 70 years prior. Those caricatures stopped for a reason. They were hurtful.
     
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  16. Canadian Ronin

    Canadian Ronin Rebel General

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    So if Watto didn't have a long trunk he wouldn't be offensive?

    Hold on.......so now sharing some attributes that are considered sterotypical and racist = racist. So Cassian, who shares those attributes, must be racist. Using your logic here.
     
  17. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    1. You literally said "Can there never be a lazy character" you applied no other attributes. I have said repeatedly you can have a lazy character so long as he isn't turned around and designed to be cartoonishly Mexican.

    2. Have you ever seen an Anti-Semetic cartoon? The answer to your question will surprise you then.

    3. No, I am really not doing the same thing.

    4. I've only accused you and the obvious troll of trolling. And it was a legitimate question because you are only taking pieces of my arguments and trying to completely re-frame them without the proper context or implications to suit your argument.
     
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  18. Canadian Ronin

    Canadian Ronin Rebel General

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    Except Jar Jar wasn't a black character or based on those characters from the past. He may have shared some things in common, but as RoyleRancor has pointed out, simply sharing some attibutes doesn't = racist (thats how we can avoid calling Cassian racist).

    And why dismiss Melissa Harris's point (and Kevins joke) then? Anakin is only evil when he is black, he isn't a good father (black sterotype) but once he becomes white again, its all good. This is why I call BS on stuff like this, people pick and choose the instances they want to claim are racist and what ones aren't. Most Star Wars will dismiss claims about Vader or Cassian that they like but call out others they've decided are bad.
     
  19. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    You really don't understand the difference between creating a racist caricature and just having attributes do you....

    Is Mr Krabbs from Spongebob racist? No. He's cheap and greedy. But he doesn't run around with a hook nose and other things associated with anti-semetic depictions of Jews.
    --- Double Post Merged, Jan 3, 2017, Original Post Date: Jan 3, 2017 ---
    Because Vader is never black? It's a suit.
    Luke wears black in ROTJ and is never evil.

    That's why it's a weak argument.
     
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  20. Canadian Ronin

    Canadian Ronin Rebel General

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    1) Well we're in luck then, cause Jar Jar was not dsigned to be a cartoonish Black man, Watto wasn't a cartoonish Jew etc...

    2) LMAO. Yes, I've never seen one I would confuse with Watto

    3) Yes you are. She was looking for racism, so she found. You're looking for it, and shockingly you found it. You go further, you aren't looking for it in Rogue One or the OT, you don't want to find it there, so you'll make excuses for those NOT being racist.

    4) So you must be a troll as well.,
     
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